Latest Ukraine/Russia Thread

[Raze]

54 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

That’s also a similar reason for Israel not wanting a Palestinian state.

They can’t have a their state with an army etc., it’s too dangerous for us, they will get weapons from their allies Iran and Hezbollah etc. and attack us.

Some key differences

- Ukraine started neutral and was entering an alliance, Israel took the Palestinians country 

- Russia didn’t say Ukraine can’t have an army or country, just that it would remain neutral.

- if Israel doesn’t like that solution it can allow the Palestinians they occupy to be equal citizens 

Edited Thursday at 10:01 PM by Raze

[PurpleTree]

 

[zazen]

@PurpleTree Nice share. Related to that:

[PurpleTree]

^ and here’s a Ukrainian opinion on it.

 

[Bobby_2021]

14 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Basically Russia denies Ukraines right to free determination and existence, history

There is no such thing like free determination in this world.

It's not like United states values free determination for Cuba. 

There is a thing called sphere of influence. 

------

 

 

Notice how Putin describes it as a NATO attack on Russia. 

Because Ukraine doesn't have the technical know how to operate western military equipment deeply embedded within western gps, cryptography, clearance etc. So basically NATO personnel were responsible for launching attack into Russia with storm shadows and ATACMS.

NATO attacked Russia.

Realize that first.

Edited Friday at 04:17 AM by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

On 11/19/2024 at 5:23 PM, PurpleTree said:

West bad. Putin good good.

No one who is apparently pro Russian have said this. The pro Russian side acknowledges that both parties have done something wrong in this and that's exactly why they advocate for sitting down together for peace talks.

Now you tell me who doesn't want that and who blocked all peace talks.

The west takes the attitude of either you are with us or against us. Putin bad west good.

Listen, Is the west right 100% of the time and Russia is wrong 100% of the time? What is west is right 50% and Russia is right the other 50%? Hell what of west is right 70% of the time and Russia is right 30% of the time?

Even acknowledging that Russia is a country with security interests is akin to being a russian propagandist. Lile Russia isn't even entitled to basic security lile every country. 

The hypocrisy is insane.

[zazen]

Interesting breakdown of Ukraine 

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

 

Now you tell me who doesn't want that and who blocked all peace talks.

 

Russia.

They repeatedly state there will be no negotiation on anything taken.
They refused neutrality.

Frankly i'm fed up with the authoritarian states thinking they can take whatever they want with no consequence, so if its war, its war. It has to stop here.

They think that by firing larger missiles, killing more civilians we'll all just let them take over whatever they like. Well it's not happening. With or without Trumps support. Most of BRICS members thinks violence will get them what they want, well it won't.

 

Edited Friday at 11:44 AM by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

This was the response to the latest political theater by Russia by the UK. The only reason to use a larger missile on a city than Russian's usual terror attacks, is to try and intimidate everyone else.

The missile attack was supposedly communicated ahead of time, so no counter-launches happened from NATO's side.

[BlueOak]

21 hours ago, Raze said:

What destabilizes Europe is the US trying to bring Ukraine into NATO. They knew Russia wouldn’t tolerate a border state joining a hostile military alliance.  

That's the only way to ensure there will be no more war. Russia cannot take NATO, or even a small part of it on.

If Russia take eastern Ukraine without sufficient damage, they will continue their pattern of invading former soviet states and invade for a 3rd time, the 9th war in total in its expansion.

[PurpleTree]

58 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

 Most of BRICS members thinks violence will get them what they want, well it won't.

 

So far it seems kind of like it’s working though. Russians lose a lot of people but probably moreso from the poorer regions and Russians and Putin don’t really care.

[BlueOak]

7 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

So far it seems kind of like it’s working though. Russians lose a lot of people but probably moreso from the poorer regions and Russians and Putin don’t really care.

If I can be very blunt, and qualify this with its a very disturbing sick way of thinking but some people do:

Population demographics are not on their side. In their mindset, they would need population to replace that population. I understand certain people consider certain races of humans lesser, and the overall goal of some in Russia is to Russify as much of the world as possible. That's why it values white Ukrainans more than some of the colored minorities in Russia, and certainly values those in the western areas of Russia itself. But they are losing a lot of people they don't have to achieve it. I know Putin wants to go out in a blaze of glory at this point, and fix some of the population demographic issues by shortening his European border, meaning he needs less of an army to guard it, but he's leaving a greater population problem for future generations.

I actually think Russia will need many more Asians in it to carry on in the future, but then again some in central and eastern Asian countries are happy to move there, so perhaps the inherent problem of racism in Russia's policymaking will eventually correct itself by birthrate and immigration/emigration.

Edited Friday at 12:48 PM by BlueOak

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

They repeatedly state there will be no negotiation on anything taken.

Obviously. Talks were going on throughout 2021 and US refused neutrality to Ukraine.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

They refused neutrality.

No neutrality was ever offered.

Exactly like how NATO agreed to not expand eastwards and didn't keep it. West destroyed it's image as a reasonable party in negotiations and that's why Russia will not negotiate anymore. 

There were many good deals and all of them were rejected.

Now the only thing that will end the war is complete surrender of Ukraine. Soon this will happen with Trump.

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

Most of BRICS members thinks violence will get them what they want, well it won't.

There hasn't been a single year in which US has not been actively involved in wars and somehow BRICS is the violent one here lol.

[PurpleTree]

Ukraine needs their own nukes i think. They can’t trust the US to defend them.

Then Ukraine and Russia can be fun nukey neighbours like India and Pakistan.

[Bobby_2021]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Ukraine needs their own nukes i think

Russia will send one soon enough if you try hard enough.

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

They can’t trust the US to defend them.

Of course. Ukraine is being wiped off demographically. Even Europe couldn't trust US. 

US involvement is what got them in this mess in the first place. Russia is/was never a threat to anyone until US involvement.

Edited Friday at 01:27 PM by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

Quote

If this decision is made, it will mean nothing short of direct involvement – it will mean that NATO countries, the United States, and European countries are parties to the war in Ukraine.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/ukraine-russia-war-11-22-24-intl-hnk/index.html

Edited Friday at 02:27 PM by Bobby_2021

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Obviously. Talks were going on throughout 2021 and US refused neutrality to Ukraine.

No neutrality was ever offered.

Exactly like how NATO agreed to not expand eastwards and didn't keep it. West destroyed it's image as a reasonable party in negotiations and that's why Russia will not negotiate anymore. 

There were many good deals and all of them were rejected.

Now the only thing that will end the war is complete surrender of Ukraine. Soon this will happen with Trump.

There hasn't been a single year in which US has not been actively involved in wars and somehow BRICS is the violent one here lol.

1 and 2) I repeatedly link to you where neutrality was offered. I won't again unless you need it. Either you don't read the sources or forget. Putin chose violence and terror.

3) Again same old conversation. Authoritarian states invade neighbors, spread fear, interfere in surrounding states, people join NATO. They seek NATO out. People associate America with violence, so they blame all their allies, most of which have about 0.001% of the capacity or will to do what America does.

4) By Russia and its proxies used to cause civil war and chaos, because its proxy government in Ukraine was overthrown, due to them shooting people in the streets and trying to suppress the growing democratic sentiment there.

5) That will not end the war. States expanding in Europe are never allowed to just sit on the territory they take. BRICS have an idea that people will just sit back and take it, we are not too far from WW3 as a result. China, Russia and Iran are all the same, your view of the situation is the same. I think WW3 is unavoidable at this point.

6) Ukraine is not spelled USA.
BRICS is incredibly violent, China and Russia are constantly expanding and threatening neighbors.
(BTW I am doing what you do intentionally, and saying BRICS, when its actually China and Russia)
 

Edited Friday at 04:10 PM by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Ukraine needs their own nukes i think. They can’t trust the US to defend them.

Then Ukraine and Russia can be fun nukey neighbours like India and Pakistan.

Yes. That is one way that doesn't involve them joining NATO.

[Bobby_2021]

18 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

and 2) I repeatedly link to you where neutrality was offered. I won't again unless you need it. Either you don't read the sources or forget. Putin chose violence and terror.

Give me the source where the United states of america declares that Ukraine will not join NATO.

US has repeatedly doubled down on Ukraine joining NATO and Ukraine is already a defacto NATO member.

I know that clickbait article you are talking about. But that's not important. A neutral state cannot be in a western military alliance bordering Russia. 

20 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

(BTW I am doing what you do intentionally, and saying BRICS, when its actually China and Russia)

It reflects poorly on you to be honest. BRICS isn't a military alliance unlike NATO. 

BRICS expansion is a means of fostering trade and business. NATO is in the business of Violence, Coups which they already have done. 

23 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

because its proxy government in Ukraine was overthrown,

It was a CIA orchestrated coup. 

23 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Ukraine is not spelled USA.

US missiles manned by US personnel is being fired from Ukrainian soil into Russia. 

So it wasn't a misspelling.

[Bobby_2021]

Statement from the president of Russia

Quote

I would like to inform the military personnel of the Russian Federation Armed Forces, citizens of our country, our friends across the globe, and those who persist in the illusion that a strategic defeat can be inflicted upon Russia, about the events taking place today in the zone of the special military operation, specifically following the attacks by Western long-range weapons against our territory.

The escalation of the conflict in Ukraine, instigated by the West, continues with the United States and its NATO allies previously announcing that they authorise the use of their long-range high-precision weapons for strikes inside the Russian Federation. Experts are well aware, and the Russian side has repeatedly highlighted it, that the use of such weapons is not possible without the direct involvement of military experts from the manufacturing nations.

Notice that Putin acknowledges that ATACMS and storm shadow missiles on Russian territory constitute a NATO attack on Russia. This is the most important part. NATO directly attacked Russia. Let that sink in. 

Quote

On November 19, six ATACMS tactical ballistic missiles produced by the United States, and on November 21, during a combined missile assault involving British Storm Shadow systems and HIMARS systems produced by the US, attacked military facilities inside the Russian Federation in the Bryansk and Kursk regions. From that point onward, as we have repeatedly emphasised in prior communications, the regional conflict in Ukraine provoked by the West has assumed elements of a global nature. Our air defence systems successfully counteracted these incursions, preventing the enemy from achieving their apparent objectives.

The fire at the ammunition depot in the Bryansk Region, caused by the debris of ATACMS missiles, was extinguished without casualties or significant damage. In the Kursk Region, the attack targeted one of the command posts of our group North. Regrettably, the attack and the subsequent air defence battle resulted in casualties, both fatalities and injuries, among the perimeter security units and servicing staff. However, the command and operational staff of the control centre suffered no casualties and continues to manage effectively the operations of our forces to eliminate and push enemy units out of the Kursk Region.

I wish to underscore once again that the use by the enemy of such weapons cannot affect the course of combat operations in the special military operation zone. Our forces are making successful advances along the entire line of contact, and all objectives we have set will be accomplished.

In response to the deployment of American and British long-range weapons, on November 21, the Russian Armed Forces delivered a combined strike on a facility within Ukraine’s defence industrial complex. In field conditions, we also carried out tests of one of Russia’s latest medium-range missile systems – in this case, carrying a non-nuclear hypersonic ballistic missile that our engineers named Oreshnik. The tests were successful, achieving the intended objective of the launch. In the city of Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine, one of the largest and most famous industrial complexes from the Soviet Union era, which continues to produce missiles and other armaments, was hit.

We are developing intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles in response to US plans to produce and deploy intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles in Europe and the Asia-Pacific region. We believe that the United States made a mistake by unilaterally destroying the INF Treaty in 2019 under a far-fetched pretext. Today, the United States is not only producing such equipment, but, as we can see, it has worked out ways to deploy its advanced missile systems to different regions of the world, including Europe, during training exercises for its troops. Moreover, in the course of these exercises, they are conducting training for using them.

As a reminder, Russia has voluntarily and unilaterally committed not to deploy intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles until US weapons of this kind appear in any region of the world.

To reiterate, we are conducting combat tests of the Oreshnik missile system in response to NATO’s aggressive actions against Russia. Our decision on further deployment of intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles will depend on the actions of the United States and its satellites.

We will determine the targets during further tests of our advanced missile systems based on the threats to the security of the Russian Federation. We consider ourselves entitled to use our weapons against military facilities of those countries that allow to use their weapons against our facilities, and in case of an escalation of aggressive actions, we will respond decisively and in mirror-like manner. I recommend that the ruling elites of the countries that are hatching plans to use their military contingents against Russia seriously consider this.

It goes without saying that when choosing, if necessary and as a retaliatory measure, targets to be hit by systems such as Oreshnik on Ukrainian territory, we will in advance suggest that civilians and citizens of friendly countries residing in those areas leave danger zones. We will do so for humanitarian reasons, openly and publicly, without fear of counter-moves coming from the enemy, who will also be receiving this information.

Why without fear? Because there are no means of countering such weapons today. Missiles attack targets at a speed of Mach 10, which is 2.5 to 3 kilometres per second. Air defence systems currently available in the world and missile defence systems being created by the Americans in Europe cannot intercept such missiles. It is impossible.

I would like to emphasise once again that it was not Russia, but the United States that destroyed the international security system and, by continuing to fight, cling to its hegemony, they are pushing the whole world into a global conflict.

We have always preferred and are ready now to resolve all disputes by peaceful means. But we are also ready for any turn of events.

If anyone still doubts this, make no mistake: there will always be a response.

Putting this here because western media has a habit of twisting Putin's statement. So we need direct translation from the official site. 

Edited Friday at 04:42 PM by Bobby_2021