@Leo: About the carnivore diet

[RendHeaven]

8 hours ago, Joshe said:

I made these demons real. I printed this bitch out on a poster and hung it in my kitchen. 

This was me 3 years ago when I was eating salads and tofu and fish every day like a good boy

[Adam M]

The carnivore diet only brings temporary relief to a deeper problem. And it's also not healthy for you AT ALL when done over long periods and is also COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY when you understand the medical medium information of what actually causes chronic illness and how to heal it.

Read the medical medium information, there's awesome info about this subject you can learn from the book Liver Rescue and Cleanse To Heal.

You have to kill the viruses and pathogens in your body and you have to get the metals and other toxins out. A carnivore diet CANNOT DO THIS. It can only temporarily stop feeding the bugs (assuming you're not eating eggs and dairy) which is why it seems to bring relief. But as soon as you bring the other foods back, all the symptoms return even worse because now your liver is even weaker due to all the fats... and not any cleaner.

I am attempting to explain this in detail here in this video and also in future upcoming videos. Carnivore diet proponents don't understand WHY they are seeing "results" with their carnivore diet. They also don't understand that their results are temporary at best and not sustainable. If you sesriously care about reversing autoimmune/chronic illnesses. You HAVE to take the medical medium information seriously and study it in depth. You literally don't have any other choice, I'm sorry.
 

^ that's me explaining why.

Yes, it's true, plain chicken doesn't feed any viruses in your body which is why you feel like it isn't inflammatory. That being said, you will be able to handle fresh fruits and vegetables if you stay on a celeryt juice morning cleanse protocol for at least 2 weeks. You also need to seriously lower your fats if you actually want to heal your body. @Leo Gura

Edited September 19 by Adam M

[Adam M]

@RendHeaven Your whole body runs on sugar so obviously you crave it. 

[Adam M]

On 9/17/2024 at 1:59 PM, aurum said:

Well you seem to have found a diet that works for you. Indeed, I actually eat fairly similar to you and find myself doing very well. Despite all the meat I eat, even my lipid panel shows no issues. My last doctor chalked it up to genetics, so I am skeptical of people who paint a simplistic picture of meat = bad health.

At the same time, I'm also skeptical of extrapolating my personal experience into a generalized theory of nutrition.

For instance, I have a food intolerance to eggs. If I ate a single egg I would be rolling around the floor in agony for god knows how long. And I also didn't get even 1/10 of the problems you seemed to have on a vegan diet.

So now what? How much should I assume my personal experience is generalizable, especially when you can find anecdotes with seemingly similar results for any diet?

This of course is why you need to do studies.

But why do you have faith in mechanistic studies and not human outcome studies? Especially when we know mechanistic studies are notoriously bad at translating to actual results in humans? Don't you need the human studies to really say anything conclusive? 

This is a hunch on your part. Which is fine, but you can't corroborate it with any kind of data.

What if humans genetically engineer a food one day that is superior to meat? Maybe it will be the other way around. 

But how do you know you've arrived at that answer? And why should anyone take that strategy seriously when you don't have the science to back it up and they have to change their entire life?

You don't have a food intolerance to eggs. Eggs feed pathogens and viruses in the body that cause your illness. Look into the Medical Medium information if you actually want to have a deep understanding of what causes chronic illness and how to heal it. Cleanse to Heal is a great place to start.

[What Am I]

Great convos here, especially between aurum and RendHeaven. Not much to add, except to say I'm currently on team animal-based.

• Beef and organs
• Eggs
• Dairy of all kinds
• Honey
• Bone broth
• Fruit of all kinds
• Potatoes

While these ingredients may appear few, you can make quite a large variety of flavorful dishes. When tracking macros and micros, everything is exactly where I'd like it to be. I've tried many different diets over the years, and none have given me such vitality and well-being.

I was a strict vegetarian for over 10 years. I was never really happy with that diet, and the subconscious desire to eat meat was strong enough that it even made its way into my dreams on many occasions. When I briefly gave veganism a try, I felt like death in short order, even when carefully avoiding unhealthy vegan options.

I'm aware science isn't on my side in the saturated fat debate, but I literally don't care. Having experimented on both ends of the spectrum and everything between, this is clearly the best way for me to eat. I have a feeling I'm not the first or the last person to jump ship on the science-approved plant-based diet after discovering a much preferred alternative. At least in terms of favorable subjective experience.

When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

Edited September 19 by What Am I

[aurum]

42 minutes ago, Adam M said:

You don't have a food intolerance to eggs. Eggs feed pathogens and viruses in the body that cause your illness. Look into the Medical Medium information if you actually want to have a deep understanding of what causes chronic illness and how to heal it. Cleanse to Heal is a great place to start.

Don't push that new-age garbage on me.

[Adam M]

@aurum Excuse me?

It's not new-age garbage, dude. It's the most advanced and effective healing information we have. But you can't know that if you deny it on premise. What's the point of all this epistemology talk if we can't even be open-minded to a source that recieves info in a spiritual way? The info has an excellent track record and there are tens of thousands of doctors that use it to heal their patients. 

I find that most people aren't open to it until their chronic illness gets so bad ... they try everything... and they have no choice. 

Most people would rather die than open their mind.

Since you're a scientist, why not take on the info as a temporary hypothesis and test it yourself? But, of course you don't want to do that because you're lazy and you don't care.

Anyways, you're free to live as you wish. Peace.

Edited September 19 by Adam M

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

I've tried many different diets over the years, and none have given me such vitality and well-being.

*exaggerated false surprise*

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

Having experimented on both ends of the spectrum and everything between, this is clearly the best way for me to eat.

but that's just YOUR personal experience!

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

^ that's me explaining why.

I'm not impressed at all by a guy that looks like this

You can just feel the estrogen and hair loss on this lad.

Try animal based for 3 years and report your results.

Or don't, and continue to yell across the river without getting your feet wet

[aurum]

7 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Ancestral argument for sure, but that's not all.

I am seeing and living a synergy between Ancestry + Mechanisms (it's spelled out in very clear layman's terms on Wikipedia that PUFA --> LA --> Oxidation --> Disease, as long as you connect the dots yourself) + personal experience with turning my life around the moment I got rid of LA + identical anecdotes from my most trusted IRL connections (e.g. @Jason Actualization went low PUFA and literally erased Eosinophilic Esophagitis, which is a crippling autoimmune condition that according to google has "no known cure," and to this day modern medicine will prescribe you lifetime pharmaceuticals to control symptoms instead of actually curing you. And no, Mediterranean diet will not save you here. but amazingly whenever he tells people about this fact, with photo proof, they still find a way to dismiss him "because the studies don't agree" and they essentially gaslight his low-PUFA feat by saying that the disease probably naturally went away without his herculean effort to lower PUFA and that he is probably misattributing the cause of his cure to his pseudoscience diet. Which is just a stunning display of devilry, pointing fingers and accusing OTHERS of deception when you yourself are not pure.)

I am not afraid to admit that I am banking on a half-baked hunch; but my argument is that rational science followers are in fact doing the exact same thing in structure with different content - with the additional wrinkle that their studies overrule everything else and give the illusion that their conclusion is final, i.e. they're not willing to change their mind until a new meta study comes out that tells them what to think

Oh yes, Jason and I have tangled on here about this same topic.

I don't doubt that scientists may be stuck in some ways. Our understanding of health is obviously evolving. But personally I can't say I'm clear how PUFA --> Disease, especially if you are only willing to look at mechanistic studies. If you're willing to enlighten me, I'll listen. 

7 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

I appreciate the civil discussion a lot. I'd like to know your thought process and journey to having a similar diet to me despite maintaining a higher level skepticism

Yes I think that will provide some context.

My diet journey started more than a decade ago when I experimented with keto. I had no scientific background and so I just studied protocols I found online. The results were most definitely not good, but that got me started.

Over the years I experimented with pretty much everything. Paleo, veganism, carnivore, animal-based, long-term fasting, intermittent fasting, all kinds of supplements, juicing and whatever else I'm forgetting.

I came back to eating meat after a fast I did while vegan. I had been vegan for about a year. Usually I had no problem with meat cravings, but on this fast I just started to crave meat. I don't know why other than I guess my body just hit some limit. So after the fast, I just decided to go with the cravings and started eating meat again. And I haven't stopped since then. I continue to do well physically and really enjoy how I eat.

I also was never looking to cure some disease and no diet was ever that bad for me. Mostly I was just motivated by taking my health to the highest level I could, because that's just the approach I take towards life. 

But through all that process, you can probably imagine I ran across a lot of junk. A lot of ideology. A lot of false or even dangerous claims. I got burned a few times, and I've developed a strong skepticism from all of that. 

I also came to appreciate more the importance of science. I sort of fancied myself as a rogue health explorer, unencumbered by the limitations of mainstream science. But once you've been burned enough by bad science, you start to value the filter the scientific process brings a bit more. 

In addition, I also learned of some of the incredible scientific advancements coming out in modern healthcare. This made me realize how foolish I had been for thinking I was above this.

In reality, science is likely the best collective tool we have for advancing human health. And it's the best tool we have for sorting out BS, however flawed it might be at times. I don't really see a better option.

Hopefully we can improve on science's flaws in the future, but that will not happen if people think it's not worth engaging in. So my goal at this point is really to try and merge the two worlds and bring some of the things I've learned to more mainstream healthcare. I’m tired of just listening to people on the outside talk about how bad it is while doing nothing to help the situation.

Edited September 19 by aurum

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

Since you're a scientist, why not take on the info as a temporary hypothesis and test it yourself? But, of course you don't want to do that because you're lazy and you don't care.

I experimented with medical medium years ago.

He's not good.

[aurum]

3 hours ago, What Am I said:

Great convos here, especially between aurum and RendHeaven. Not much to add, except to say I'm currently on team animal-based.

• Beef and organs
• Eggs
• Dairy of all kinds
• Honey
• Bone broth
• Fruit of all kinds
• Potatoes

While these ingredients may appear few, you can make quite a large variety of flavorful dishes. When tracking macros and micros, everything is exactly where I'd like it to be. I've tried many different diets over the years, and none have given me such vitality and well-being.

I was a strict vegetarian for over 10 years. I was never really happy with that diet, and the subconscious desire to eat meat was strong enough that it even made its way into my dreams on many occasions. When I briefly gave veganism a try, I felt like death in short order, even when carefully avoiding unhealthy vegan options.

I'm aware science isn't on my side in the saturated fat debate, but I literally don't care. Having experimented on both ends of the spectrum and everything between, this is clearly the best way for me to eat. I have a feeling I'm not the first or the last person to jump ship on the science-approved plant-based diet after discovering a much preferred alternative. At least in terms of favorable subjective experience.

When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide, and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars.

Very cool.

Are you doing bloodwork?

[Schizophonia]

10 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

I mean honestly all whole foods are "OK"

My main thing is to stop eating all seed oils and to make beef the centerpiece of your diet. Everything else is variable.

I recommend macademia nuts because they are high MUFA, low PUFA, and rich in antioxidants.

I was kidding. 

Edited September 19 by Schizophonia

[Yali]

You mean I can't blindly trust a guy because he claims to channel his information from source?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 

@aurum

7 hours ago, aurum said:

In reality, science is likely the best collective tool we have for advancing human health. And it's the best tool we have for sorting out BS, however flawed it might be at times. I don't really see a better option.

 

Edited September 19 by Yali

[What Am I]

8 hours ago, aurum said:

Very cool.

Are you doing bloodwork?

Right at the beginning of my transition away from vegetarianism, I did get some basic bloodwork done. I don't think it's a great representation of my current state though, because I was leaning much more heavily on the keto/carnivore end of the spectrum at that time. Even still, everything was comfortably within range, with markers of additional concern, such as hormones, being at what I'd consider optimal for my age. LDL was predictably elevated, but I don't believe even that was outside of the reference. I imagine my LDL would look much closer to the average omnivore's these days.

Edited September 19 by What Am I

[What Am I]

9 hours ago, aurum said:

I came back to eating meat after a fast I did while vegan. I had been vegan for about a year. Usually I had no problem with meat cravings, but on this fast I just started to crave meat. I don't know why other than I guess my body just hit some limit. So after the fast, I just decided to go with the cravings and started eating meat again. And I haven't stopped since then. I continue to do well physically and really enjoy how I eat.

I feel like this is worthy of more attention. As I mentioned in my brief story, I experienced powerful cravings for meat as well. And for me, it wasn't like a craving for sweets, where I simply miss the enjoyable taste in my mouth. This subjectively felt like I was lacking a vital nutrient of some type, and my body was conveying that message in a not-so-subtle way. I wonder if there's a mechanism occurring here that we just don't understand yet.

9 hours ago, aurum said:

In reality, science is likely the best collective tool we have for advancing human health. And it's the best tool we have for sorting out BS, however flawed it might be at times. I don't really see a better option.

Hopefully we can improve on science's flaws in the future, but that will not happen if people think it's not worth engaging in. So my goal at this point is really to try and merge the two worlds and bring some of the things I've learned to more mainstream healthcare. I’m tired of just listening to people on the outside talk about how bad it is while doing nothing to help the situation.

An excellent goal, indeed. I'd love for this merging to happen as well. I don't necessarily want to be some caveman who forgoes all of our modern advancements, but I also find it very difficult to overlook what I've so clearly experienced for myself, at least in terms of perceived good health.

I guess it's similar to our previous conversation about kundalini. I genuinely apologize if it causes a bit of offense, but I really do believe our current understandings in science must be missing an important piece of the context. What that is exactly, I could not say, but it's beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind that it's true.

[RendHeaven]

9 hours ago, aurum said:

But personally I can't say I'm clear how PUFA --> Disease

Excess PUFA will slowly (over (a) decade(s) or so) lead to disease by means of oxidative stress - the brute fact of PUFA being susceptible to oxidation is common knowledge and should be non-controversial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation https://poe.com/s/kKvpc4aPJk25YxRxJHuE) but for some reason nobody spells out the elephant in the room which is that all modern humans have excess PUFA stores in adipose tissue due to the introduction of seed oils in the food supply chain since 1912 (and you can literally test for this with adipose tissue biopsy), but somehow we're going to just deny or ignore this obvious mechanism because hastily conducted studies favor PUFA (without controlling for antioxidants)?

All I will say is, there's a lot we've yet to discover...

10 hours ago, aurum said:

I also came to appreciate more the importance of science. I sort of fancied myself as a rogue health explorer, unencumbered by the limitations of mainstream science. But once you've been burned enough by bad science, you start to value the filter the scientific process brings a bit more. 

In addition, I also learned of some of the incredible scientific advancements coming out in modern healthcare. This made me realize how foolish I had been for thinking I was above this.

This is a good reality check. I'll keep it in mind.

10 hours ago, aurum said:

Hopefully we can improve on science's flaws in the future, but that will not happen if people think it's not worth engaging in.

I agree. I would love to offer myself to studies later in life. I plan to continue my low-PUFA meat diet for as long as it serves me so I should end up being an interesting specimen.

For the time being, my hunch is that my ways are right for everybody, and they just don't know it yet. But I'm not arrogant enough to be absolutist. I'm simply strongly opinionated and passionate and its very obvious to me when a plant based advocate or science white knight thinks he's being more meta than me but is in fact close minded.

I have no formal proof, and I'm open to being wrong.

20 minutes ago, What Am I said:

but I also find it very difficult to overlook what I've so clearly experienced for myself, at least in terms of perceived good health.

You have a really elegant way of verbally sticking up for your subjective experience.

[RendHeaven]

@aurum It's also not lost on me the irony that both Adam and I are essentially saying "wow bro you're such a close minded scientist" and yet we are advocating for opposite diets with equal fervor (he thinks fruits and veggies rule and meat is placebo; I think meat is king, fruits are secondary, and veggies are optional)

So naturally one of us must be "wrong" due to our mutually exclusive positions, and the scientific consensus would comfortably say that we're both wrong since we're both essentially banking on personal experience and lacking the "meta view" of, you guessed it, human outcome studies

To everyone's dismay, despite being highly aware of this irony, I'm still going to insist that I'm probably right.

And to annoy everyone further, my only rationale is "try my diet bro"

: )

[What Am I]

2 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

You have a really elegant way of verbally sticking up for your subjective experience.

Same to you, though even more so. You're quite a skilled keyboard orator.

Same for our buddy aurum. Very impressive style. There's an inherent feeling of satisfaction from observing the level-headed, yet open-minded, thought process.

Edited September 19 by What Am I

[aurum]

6 hours ago, Yali said:

You mean I can't blindly trust a guy because he claims to channel his information from source?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 

@aurum

 

Oh, if only it was that easy.

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

Excess PUFA will slowly (over (a) decade(s) or so) lead to disease by means of oxidative stress - the brute fact of PUFA being susceptible to oxidation is common knowledge and should be non-controversial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_peroxidationhttps://poe.com/s/kKvpc4aPJk25YxRxJHuE) but for some reason nobody spells out the elephant in the room which is that all modern humans have excess PUFA stores in adipose tissue due to the introduction of seed oils in the food supply chain since 1912 (and you can literally test for this with adipose tissue biopsy), but somehow we're going to just deny or ignore this obvious mechanism because hastily conducted studies favor PUFA (without controlling for antioxidants)?

All I will say is, there's a lot we've yet to discover...

But this is so speculative.

You can't just jump from lipid oxidization in adipose tissue to "this is the cause of these chronic diseases". 

It's an interesting idea and good starting place. But I'm sorry, it's not enough. 

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

I agree. I would love to offer myself to studies later in life. I plan to continue my low-PUFA meat diet for as long as it serves me so I should end up being an interesting specimen.

I look forward to seeing it.

3 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

It's also not lost on me the irony that both Adam and I are essentially saying "wow bro you're such a close minded scientist" and yet we are advocating for opposite diets with equal fervor (he thinks fruits and veggies rule and meat is placebo; I think meat is king, fruits are secondary, and veggies are optional).

So naturally one of us must be "wrong" due to our mutually exclusive positions, and the scientific consensus would comfortably say that we're both wrong since we're both essentially banking on personal experience and lacking the "meta view" of, you guessed it, human outcome studies

Yes I'm glad Adam brought up Medical Medium, because he's a great example of the kind of BS I am talking about.

All these people claiming to be going off their "intuition" make contradictory claims. Surprise, surprise.

So who is right? And how do we decide?

5 hours ago, What Am I said:

I feel like this is worthy of more attention. As I mentioned in my brief story, I experienced powerful cravings for meat as well. And for me, it wasn't like a craving for sweets, where I simply miss the enjoyable taste in my mouth. This subjectively felt like I was lacking a vital nutrient of some type, and my body was conveying that message in a not-so-subtle way. I wonder if there's a mechanism occurring here that we just don't understand yet.

That could definitely be possible. We might imagine that the body has an intuitive sense for what nutrients it needs, even if that intuition gets mixed-up sometimes with hyper-palatable / addictive foods. I'm not sure what research has been done on this question or what the current consensus is.

5 hours ago, What Am I said:

An excellent goal, indeed. I'd love for this merging to happen as well. I don't necessarily want to be some caveman who forgoes all of our modern advancements, but I also find it very difficult to overlook what I've so clearly experienced for myself, at least in terms of perceived good health.

I guess it's similar to our previous conversation about kundalini. I genuinely apologize if it causes a bit of offense, but I really do believe our current understandings in science must be missing an important piece of the context. What that is exactly, I could not say, but it's beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind that it's true.

It will undoubtedly always be the case that our current scientific understanding is missing something important. We just want to be mindful about what we fill in that gap of knowledge with and when it's appropriate to do so.

Every bad idea assumes that it's the missing piece.