Is yellow intellectualism transcended at Turquoise?

[LoseYourvelf]

My god that clip is absolutely awesome. The DBZ one. He just truly doesnt give a fuck about their comeuppances. Almost like the psychs or w/e

Edited September 15 by LoseYourvelf

[Nivsch]

OK, stage Turquoise has some decent overlap with Purple.

Edited September 15 by Nivsch

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Nilsi said:

@Carl-Richard

The irony of this discussion is that you talk about belonging, yet you refuse to give up your transcendental perspective on reality.

How can you truly belong if you don’t even accept being human?

That’s my ultimate question to you.

You accept that you are both.

[zurew]

10 hours ago, Nilsi said:

The real issue isn’t whether we can think independently, but whether the structures that shape our thoughts can be formalized into some universal truth or ethical imperative about reality.

I don't find stance independently true morals intelligible or to make sense in any way (the truth value of the moral propositions isn't dependent on or indexed to any subject or collection of subjects opinion, preference or moral intuition).

Even if someone would be able to lay down some master argument to establish that objective morals (in the sense I desribed) do exist and we objectively ought to follow and live by some set of moral propositions -  I don't think most people would be persuaded by it (me neither) unless it would be in my best interest to do so.

Regarding the "structures that shape our thoughts" - I think a lot of interesting work won't be done in philosophy but will be done in cogsci . Some of the core disagreements seem to involve stuff that philosophy generally don't touch and maybe beyond the limits of self reflection and contemplation  -  but it seems to be about  sub-semantic , sub-syntactic and maybe even sub-categorical layers of our psyche and how our brain make sense of things and create meaning.

Maybe focusing on empirical work in cogsci is the most fruitful way to progress on this issue, but maybe not.

[UnbornTao]

If we don't directly experience the true nature of anything, then what does it take to become conscious of it?

It just so happens that you have to create insight in your own experience and there's no way around that —that's the spirit of consciousness work.

If you don't experience it, it doesn't exist for you, except perhaps as a concept.

Anything other than a direct personal encounter won't change our condition of ignorance in these matters, regardless of belief conviction, and even knowledge.

This is the principle of genuine (and in this case, direct) experience. 

Edited September 16 by UnbornTao

[Fountainbleu]

On 9/15/2024 at 7:36 AM, El Zapato said:

@Fountainbleu All you need are triggers (just an opinion based on what you posted)  If you can find them internally, then so be it, I believe you but I love to read and have since early childhood, it isn't for everyone though.  There are many other ways to learn,..Many. (e.g. the school of hard knocks, Alien downloads, dreaming, meditation) I'm sure you get the idea.

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Your post is a bit confusing. 

[Nilsi]

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You accept that you are both.

From what perspective would such a sentiment even make sense? Certainly not from a human one.

If you want everything you're talking about, you first need to become human - perhaps the most violent and radical move of all.

You're still arguing from the standpoint of a transcendent observer, privileging rational thought over direct experience.

Even Peter Ralston isn’t radical enough for me here. He doesn’t fully acknowledge or emphasize the significance of the human "Lebenswelt" ("life-world"), which makes sense given that his life has largely been spent in isolated contemplation and martial arts - both of which are, in a sense, rather "inhuman" practices to begin with.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

From what perspective would such a sentiment even make sense? Certainly not from a human one.

If you want everything you're talking about, you first need to become human - perhaps the most violent and radical move of all.

You're still arguing from the standpoint of a transcendent observer, privileging rational thought over direct experience.

Even Peter Ralston isn’t radical enough for me here. He doesn’t fully acknowledge or emphasize the significance of the human "Lebenswelt" ("life-world"), which makes sense given that his life has largely been spent in isolated contemplation and martial arts - both of which are, in a sense, rather "inhuman" practices to begin with.

I don't get what the problem is.

Edited September 16 by Carl-Richard

[Fountainbleu]

On 9/12/2024 at 3:18 PM, Carl-Richard said:

 

The idea that thinking is a waste of time is a religious idea you can put on and off like clothing. It doesn't have to reflect a deep transformation of cognition. As for the transformation from Yellow to Turquoise, the key feature is not less time spent on thinking. It's how you think.

i just watched a video about coral/indigo (stage above turquoise) and it sounds like what I described about turquoise in my original post. Transcending the ego, there's very little of the I, feeling instead of thought. And the 'clear light'/super mind stage, 3 levels above coral! Is the non-dual state.

[Carl-Richard]

14 hours ago, Fountainbleu said:

i just watched a video about coral/indigo (stage above turquoise) and it sounds like what I described about turquoise in my original post. Transcending the ego, there's very little of the I, feeling instead of thought. And the 'clear light'/super mind stage, 3 levels above coral! Is the non-dual state.

Two things:

Firstly, now you're talking about Ken Wilber's model, not Spiral Dynamics as conceived by Don Beck. And obviously you're no longer talking about Turquoise. But now I wonder what you think Turquoise is if not non-duality?

Secondly, while you might have had non-dual experiences that might have even caused a transformation in your day to day experience, from what I understand from Ken Wilber's model, Tier 3 is essentially the embodiment of non-duality + being at Turquoise. But I haven't studied Wilber's model in detail, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Now, if you don't know what Turquoise is, it's unlikely that you're at Tier 3.

Edited Friday at 10:05 PM by Carl-Richard

[Fountainbleu]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Two things:

Firstly, now you're talking about Ken Wilber's model, not Spiral Dynamics as conceived by Don Beck. And obviously you're no longer talking about Turquoise. But now I wonder what you think Turquoise is if not non-duality?

Secondly, while you might have had non-dual experiences that might have even caused a transformation in your day to day experience, from what I understand from Ken Wilber's model, Tier 3 is essentially the embodiment of non-duality + being at Turquoise. But I haven't studied Wilber's model in detail, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Now, if you don't know what Turquoise is, it's unlikely that you're at Tier 3.

Carl, I’ve got to share something amazing with you.

Yesterday, I responded to an important email, and out of curiosity, I had ChatGPT transform my reply into a Coral level message—just to see what it would feel like.

Wow. It hit me like nothing else has in my life.

Reading it, I felt like it was truly me, but without all the layers of social conditioning and fears that usually hold me back. It was like I was looking at the version of the real me, that's so close—the way I actually want to talk and show up in the world.

And the craziest part? I went to bed after reading it, and when I woke up this morning, I genuinely felt like a different person. Something clicked inside me. I can’t quite put it into words, but I know that this is a shift. I feel more aligned, more me, than I have in a long time.

[Carl-Richard]

11 minutes ago, Fountainbleu said:

Carl, I’ve got to share something amazing with you.

Yesterday, I responded to an important email, and out of curiosity, I had ChatGPT transform my reply into a Coral level message—just to see what it would feel like.

Wow. It hit me like nothing else has in my life.

Reading it, I felt like it was truly me, but without all the layers of social conditioning and fears that usually hold me back. It was like I was looking at the version of the real me, that's so close—the way I actually want to talk and show up in the world.

And the craziest part? I went to bed after reading it, and when I woke up this morning, I genuinely felt like a different person. Something clicked inside me. I can’t quite put it into words, but I know that this is a shift. I feel more aligned, more me, than I have in a long time.

But do you know what Turquoise is?

[Fountainbleu]

19 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

But do you know what Turquoise is?

I’m not sure, maybe? I’d have to think about it some more and get back to you. When I watched Leo’s turquoise video years ago it really resonated with me, I’m talking goosebumps and thinking it resonated more than any of the other levels, even yellow. 

I intentionally since years ago made the decision to not try and learn too much about SD. Consciousness>SD. I even read the top recommended book on it, although it didn’t resonate much. 

Edited Friday at 11:13 PM by Fountainbleu

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Fountainbleu said:

I’m not sure, maybe? I’d have to think about it some more and get back to you. When I watched Leo’s turquoise video years ago it really resonated with me, I’m talking goosebumps and thinking it resonated more than any of the other levels, even yellow. 

Don Beck who created Spiral Dynamics made Leo retract that video because it misrepresented Turquoise (like you were doing in the start of this thread).

Nevertheless, if you dont know what Turquoise is (neither Beck's or Wilber's conception of it), you're most likely not Tier 3. (In Beck's model, there is no Tier 3).

 

4 hours ago, Fountainbleu said:

I intentionally since years ago made the decision to not try and learn too much about SD. Consciousness>SD. I even read the top recommended book on it, although it didn’t resonate much. 

It doesn't hurt to learn more about it if you otherwise spend a lot of time thinking about it. Besides, it's one thing to talk about what you personally think is the highest value or stage of development, but it's another to learn about a model that somebody else made.

Edited Saturday at 03:26 AM by Carl-Richard

[Nivsch]

On 11.9.2024 at 3:47 PM, Lila9 said:

I think that yellow has genuine intellectual open-mindedness, it wants to know without being committed to any idea and without any agenda.

I personally think that every stage has an agenda, just more elevated the more you rise.

For example when I just learned about spiral dynamics I thought yellow is very unideologic and neutral.

Nothing is further from the truth than this.

Yellow is not any less ideological but his ideology is mainly the Health of the system, be it a society, a corporation, a relationship or your own mind of course, as well as other people's health of mind. This kind of ideology provides a much deeper form of justice than what green provides.

Edited Saturday at 09:25 AM by Nivsch