Does A=A really?

[enchanted]

https://actualized.org/insights/thaddeus-russell-post-modernist-part-2

I think what Thaddeus is saying in his debate with Paterson is that without socialization you wouldn't even have conscious experience. Conscious experience is a social construct. 

Similar to how the Inuit have different words for snow that allows them to see different kinds of snow better than a someone from the city. 

Perhaps if you grew up completely alone, without contact with people or animals (maybe in a lab experiment). You wouldn't learn to label your experience as "conscious experience". So you wouldn't even know A=A. Perhaps you would be like a crocodile and not even aware you are alive.

Edited September 10 by enchanted

[Nemra]

3 minutes ago, enchanted said:

Perhaps if you grew up completely alone, without contact with people or animals (maybe in a lab experiment). You wouldn't learn to label your experience as "conscious experience". So you wouldn't even know A=A. Perhaps you would be like a crocodile and not even aware you are alive.

But do people really know that A=A?

I don't think Thaddeus got what Patterson was saying.

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, enchanted said:

Conscious experience is a social construct. 

No it isn't.

[Keryo Koffa]

Consciousness ⊂ (includes and transcends) Self-Awareness

And experience materializes long before society is formed

[aurum]

2 hours ago, enchanted said:

https://actualized.org/insights/thaddeus-russell-post-modernist-part-2

I think what Thaddeus is saying in his debate with Paterson is that without socialization you wouldn't even have conscious experience. Conscious experience is a social construct. 

Similar to how the Inuit have different words for snow that allows them to see different kinds of snow better than a someone from the city. 

Perhaps if you grew up completely alone, without contact with people or animals (maybe in a lab experiment). You wouldn't learn to label your experience as "conscious experience". So you wouldn't even know A=A. Perhaps you would be like a crocodile and not even aware you are alive.

Yes, you might not label your experience if you grew up all alone since you wouldn't have language. 

Nonetheless, experience exists and is Truth. This is what Patterson is getting at, and what Thaddeus seemingly just does not grok.

[mmKay]

After listening to all these debates on truth and postmodernism, I can't help but think cows have better metaphysics than most philosophers and human thinkers.

The cows are constantly saying 'Mu' , far more profound than all the intellectual gymnastics here, but no one seems to get it

But props to both of them , at least their hearts seem to be in the right place in the search of higher understanding,.

I'd love to see Thaddeus debating this cow. How long would it take him to understand ?

Would he ever solve the koan of debating post-modernism with a cow?
 

 

Edited September 10 by mmKay

[Keryo Koffa]

2 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Literally cows have better metaphysics than these people.

They keep saying Mu but people are caught up in the meanings

 Same vibe 😁

[r0ckyreed]

3 hours ago, enchanted said:

Conscious experience is a social construct. 

This is a contradiction because to have or say anything is a social construct requires conscious experience lol.

[Leo Gura]

Maybe now you can appreciate why I'm not a post-modernist.

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe now you can appreciate why I'm not a post-modernist.

Postmodernism itself is a social construct but truth is not!  

[ZenSwift]

For me, I did SEVERAL trips just asking the question: What is Actuality? 

 

From there you'll begin to scratch the surface of realizing that reality LITERALLY is just ISing in front of you, appearances happening to nobody. Appearances grounded in itself, grounded in Nothingness, being itself as an infinite shapshifting fractal. Figments of consciousness literally just existing as they are on their own with nothing behind it., No "How" is needed. It is just A=A. 

 

I personally just scratched the surface of this myself, accessing stats of consciousness that the whole show of reality is just happening within the bubble of consciousness that I am accessing and forgetting how I'm generating right now. Accessing states realizing that all stories of why things exist are just stories and contexts projected onto reality to fool myself that spontaneous existence isn't just happening right here. 

[UnbornTao]

@mmKay

[Davino]

10 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Postmodernism itself is a social construct but truth is not!  

Post Modernism is a meta social constructs that allows for different worldviews to exist without feeling threatened by their diversity

But Truth, who cares about that?

Surely post modernist don't care enough

[Davino]

17 hours ago, enchanted said:

I think what Thaddeus is saying in his debate with Paterson is that without socialization you wouldn't even have conscious experience. Conscious experience is a social construct. 

What they're pointing is that one gets to know oneself/human through interactions with other humans, mirrors reflect on mirrors. So they just overexistentialized their point. In the same way you can see a cat is more cat when it has been in contact with other cats instead of an alone flat cat.

The psyche is more evolved one could say, it has made sharper distinctions, it's sense making is more accurate and more mature. One could say certain environments and conditions allow for more recursive cycles of the same stuff than others. If that makes sense, in the same way holons work in complexity orders of themselves, certain conditions speed up the evolution and recombination of the same Reality. This is the only truth to what was being said.

Consciousness is always already existing, social constructs are a figment within your mind, that other humans gave you through socialization, ironic, isn't it?

17 hours ago, enchanted said:

Perhaps if you grew up completely alone, without contact with people or animals (maybe in a lab experiment). You wouldn't learn to label your experience as "conscious experience".

Thought free awareness or non symbolic existence is a basic state of consciousness you can access

You will see you cannot tell wether you are alive or not, or conscious or not

What is, becomes self explanatory and labels do not apply anymore

Reality does not need your human labels to exist, Consciousness is enough all by itself

So throw the label if it's bothering you, no label makes it justice

God is the best shot though

God God God

Maybe I should start talking like that. There was a Saint in India which God was the only word that uttered

Edited September 11 by Davino

[MutedMiles]

17 hours ago, enchanted said:

https://actualized.org/insights/thaddeus-russell-post-modernist-part-2

I think what Thaddeus is saying in his debate with Paterson is that without socialization you wouldn't even have conscious experience. Conscious experience is a social construct. 

Similar to how the Inuit have different words for snow that allows them to see different kinds of snow better than a someone from the city. 

Perhaps if you grew up completely alone, without contact with people or animals (maybe in a lab experiment). You wouldn't learn to label your experience as "conscious experience". So you wouldn't even know A=A. Perhaps you would be like a crocodile and not even aware you are alive.

I don't know what they mean by conscious experience, however while writing this reply, there is awareness of what is happening at this moment, it is something involving thoughts, sensations of my body and my hands pressing buttons additionally there is  awareness of visual space too, and making sense of this along with characters appearing on the screen. Now making sense of what's going on, does have a social angle to it.

However the real fact of being aware of all this is clearly at a much fundamental level. To understand we can imagine another thought experiment. By imagining a child when he is just born, Now assuming there are no concepts at that moment, the child is very aware of the experience of what's happening, that to me is consciousness which clearly precedes all concepts that will come afterwards, including the concept of the "self" and living and experiencing life on behalf of a person in whatever social context that person happen to find himself. 

Edited September 11 by MutedMiles

[LSD-Rumi]

On 9/10/2024 at 8:58 PM, enchanted said:

Similar to how the Inuit have different words for snow that allows them to see different kinds of snow better than a someone from the city. 

I hate this argument so much. Most languages are complicated enough to cover a lot of variations.

It is not like we live in 1984 book universe where the only word for bad is "not good"

[Letho]

Origins-does-not=causality-it=circumstance.

[Keryo Koffa]

9 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

I hate this argument so much. Most languages are complicated enough to cover a lot of variations.

It is not like we live in 1984 book universe where the only word for bad is "not good"

 

[LSD-Rumi]

@Keryo KoffaThe influence of lingustics on human experience is very limited in well developed languages. Stage green tends to overexaggerate it. You don't need to label every point on a spectrum to notice the differences. It boils down to a simplistic versus complex viewpoint that leads to greater comprehension. Take autism, for instance; it's a spectrum, but we don't have names for each minor variation. Specialists can identify the different variations of the condition due to their deeper comprehension of it.

 

Edited September 12 by LSD-Rumi

[Keryo Koffa]

@LSD-Rumi Language allows for questions which imply their own answers creating a strange loop.

Syntax creates focus and channels attention, objects/ideas display what is possible to think about.

Society funnels concepts and significances, creating retro-interpretation and prescribing evolution.

The network of concepts is self-reinforcing and creates the structure of self-expanding narratives.

Every holon sets a focus and interfaces with every other holon, mapping the direction of reality.