Kamala-Trump Debate

[Emerald]

14 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

According to some reports I have read, the immigrants are being flown there by the government and are given subsidies.   How else do they get there? And if that is not true can you provide me with a real article written by an investigative journalist that actually explains the situation and what is happening.  Keep in mind that conspiracy theorists fill in the vacuum provided by lack of real information.  

I have some limited direct experience of Haitians.  Several years ago a group of Haitian workers were kicked out of Brazil for some reason and they all showed up in Tijuana to apply for asylum in the United States.  Many of them ended up settling in Mexico.  They were well dressed and all using smartphones.  They were workers who had skills and obviously weren't the type who would eat somebody's pets.   I wonder exactly who the Hatians are in Springfield and if they are of the same class.  

"The question is how much are the undocumented workers being subsidized by the government?"

An undocumented worker is someone who (of their own accord) jumps the border and enters the country illegally OR someone who (of their own accord) flies in legally and overstays their Visa. And the government doesn't subsidize undocumented workers and will deport them if they tried to apply for benefits.

If the government is flying in these immigrants, they are 100% documented and are likely asylum seekers that are allowed by law to be here. And asylum seekers are probably eligible for government benefits because they are entering the country under vulnerable circumstances that are recognized under law as such.

Also, Haitians in Springfield definitely aren't eating pets. That's just a lie made up by a Neo-Nazi group called Bloodpure to create animosity towards Haitian immigrants.

Edited September 14 by Emerald

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of subtler prejudice to be exploited in the general population... even for those who aren't drawn to these right wing echo chambers.

And veiled scare-mongering about immigration can work for Republican politicians to get more votes from the general populace as long as the anti-immigrant sentiment it isn't too blatant.

The thing is, most people genuinely don't like to think about themselves as racist or xenophobic, even if they are to some degree.

So, if there's a Republican politician who's couching their anti-immigration sentiment from a non-hatred based rationale... this won't scare off normies who happen to have unconscious biases against immigrants.

And they will feel comfortable voting for that politician because "They're not racist, they're just concerned about the cartels." Or "They're not xenophobic. It's just that every functioning country needs a strong border. Otherwise immigrants will take jobs from Americans, and we won't have enough resources."

And the normie Republican voter with unconscious biases against immigrants and some genuine practical concerns about immigration will feel comfortable voting for this kind of politician that couches their anti-immigrant sentiment in dog-whistles and less extreme rationales.

But if a politician is clear and blatant about the xenophobia and racism like they are in right-wing echo chambers (which is what Trump mistakenly parroted in the debate), it will scare normie Republicans and Centrists off who have milder, less-conscious biases.

They particularly don't like blatant racists and xenophobes because it holds a mirror up to their own Shadows.

Probably only about 25% of people (probably less) actually resonate with intensely blatantly racist/xenophobic perspectives... and only people with that level of neurosis and grievance are in right-wing echo chambers.

I agree with all that.

So, if only about a quarter of Americans are in those right-wing echo chambers, then what about the other twenty something percent of Americans who aren't in those right-wing echo chambers but still voted for Trump for in 2016 and 2020?

[ryandesreu]

11 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I agree with all that.

So, if only about a quarter of Americans are in those right-wing echo chambers, then what about the other twenty something percent of Americans who aren't in those right-wing echo chambers but still voted for Trump for in 2016 and 2020?

The people who supported Trump but aren’t part of right-wing echo chambers likely voted for a variety of reasons such as word of mouth and economic, anti-establishment, nationalist, religious, and culture beliefs.

Edited September 14 by ryandesreu

[El Zapato]

18 hours ago, ici said:

I love Trump

I don't

Edited September 14 by El Zapato

[ryandesreu]

Republicans love to complain about immigration, but we had an immigration bill, and Trump told Republicans in Congress to block it because he wants to run on the issue. So in the meantime people suffer.

Edited September 14 by ryandesreu

[ryandesreu]

19 hours ago, ici said:

I love Trump

He loves you too lol

[ryandesreu]

[El Zapato]

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

One distinguishing characteristic (though this doesn't totally negate the possibility of prejudice) is if someone has genuinely lost their job or is dealing with employment issues due to the influx of immigrants... or if they have friends and family members who have.

Like if a person is a landscaper working in a border state, and they are forced to lower their prices significantly to compete with undocumented immigrants whose precarious standing within the country puts them in a position where they're working for a much lower wage than industry standard. 

It makes sense that people who are directly impacted in a negative way by illegal immigration would care about the issue. That said, most undocumented immigrants are taking menial jobs that Americans don't want.

And what will indicate that this person isn't operating from a place of prejudice is that they place the blame where it belongs... which is with the system itself... and to some extent with the people who hire undocumented workers for exploitative wages.

But if someone is placing the blame where it really belongs, it's with those who maintain the system... the government in combination with private industry. 

If they didn't want immigrants here, they wouldn't be here. But we require illegal immigrants to come into the country to work as a cheap labor force so that the economy keeps running... and so that private industry can save money on wages.

13 hours ago, Emerald said:

"The question is how much are the undocumented workers being subsidized by the government?"

An undocumented worker is someone who (of their own accord) jumps the border and enters the country illegally OR someone who (of their own accord) flies in legally and overstays their Visa. And the government doesn't subsidize undocumented workers and will deport them if they tried to apply for benefits.

If the government is flying in these immigrants, they are 100% documented and are likely asylum seekers that are allowed by law to be here. And asylum seekers are probably eligible for government benefits because they are entering the country under vulnerable circumstances that are recognized under law as such.

Also, Haitians in Springfield definitely aren't eating pets. That's just a lie made up by a Neo-Nazi group called Bloodpure to create animosity towards Haitian immigrants.

13 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I agree with all that.

So, if only about a quarter of Americans are in those right-wing echo chambers, then what about the other twenty something percent of Americans who aren't in those right-wing echo chambers but still voted for Trump for in 2016 and 2020?

On 9/13/2024 at 11:10 AM, Lews Therin said:

is this a movie or do you have any credible sources for that?

Anyone know how to remove an obnoxious image that won't go away?

 

Anywho, been there, done that.  My advice is that people should take it like an Orange.  That so many complain about it, we can assume that a whole big number must be at a lesser level.  That is there problem not mine... 

 

[Fearey]

Trump still having any relevancy in 2024 is to me proof that a large portion of humanity is nothing more than apes running on autopilot with zero reasoning capabilities. It would be hard to justify referring to them as human beings, and not just an inferior life form.

Perhaps democracy needs to be reworked for its own continued survival, excluding people proven to be unable to think critically from voting on any issue. Then you'd never get into a situation like this in the first place.

[El Zapato]

38 minutes ago, Fearey said:

Trump still having any relevancy in 2024 is to me proof that a large portion of humanity is nothing more than apes running on autopilot with zero reasoning capabilities. It would be hard to justify referring to them as human beings, and not just an inferior life form.

Perhaps democracy needs to be reworked for its own continued survival, excluding people proven to be unable to think critically from voting on any issue. Then you'd never get into a situation like this in the first place.

lol, I can't tell you how many times I've thought that.  But it would be unfair?  But then it would directly align with the U.S. philosophy regarding equal representation in a 'Democracy' American style.

[PenguinPablo]

17 hours ago, Emerald said:

Also, Haitians in Springfield definitely aren't eating pets. That's just a lie made up by a Neo-Nazi group called Bloodpure to create animosity towards Haitian immigrants.

and the fact that Trump i spewing this nonsense in a fucking presidential debate is insane...

bringing up the immigration thing over and over again.

like what is your voter demographic...

xenophobes and racists?

Edited September 14 by PenguinPablo

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, PenguinPablo said:

like what is your voter demographic is xenophobes and racists?

Of course.

Most people in the world are racist.

Conservatives understand this and liberals do not. That's what makes liberals stupid.

Edited September 14 by Leo Gura

[PenguinPablo]

@Leo Gura

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course.

Most people in the world are racist.

Conservatives understand this and liberals do not. That's what makes liberals stupid.

yes but to some conservatives...

anything besides lynching is not racism but victim mentality

[Leo Gura]

@PenguinPablo It's best not to think of racism as racism but human nature.

[Nemra]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Most people in the world are racist.

Americans could learn to be better racists from other countries. Lol.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Americans could learn to be better racists from other countries. Lol.

Don't underestimate us!

Although China is tough to beat.

[ryandesreu]

Humans have a natural tendency to categorize things, including people, based on observable differences such as race, language, or culture, but humans do not naturally hate or racially discriminate. Racism is a social construct. It is learned behavior.

What am I missing?

[aurum]

13 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

but humans do not naturally hate or racially discriminate. Racism is a social construct. It is learned behavior.

No. This is progressive nonsense.

Racism is about survival. And survival is the most natural thing there is.

[Joshe]

@ryandesreu fear, and how easy it gets triggered. 

Edited September 15 by Joshe

[Forestluv]

Liberals may underestimate the degree of racism in average Americans, yet I think the Harris campaign is well aware of it. Their campaign is heavily influenced by data and they know this is a losing issue for them. They've avoided racism issues overtly or by using rhetoric like "It's his same old playbook", "We are all neighbors / Americans" or "We have more in common, than differences". When pressed on racism, they've pointed to Charlottsville and The Proud Boys - both of which poll well. 

Imo, Trump's biggest weakness isn't his narcissism or racism. It's his incompetence. His 2020 campaign devolved into a circus highlighted by Syndey "Release the Kraken" Powell. The same thing is happening now with "They're eating dogs" and conspiracy queen Laura Loomer. . . JD Vance just posted a debunked video of immigrants cooking cats in Dayton, Ohio. This energizes MAGA, yet isn't an effective way to capitalize on immigration with average Americans. . . It could be that Trump's campaign is going all-in on MAGA turnout. 

Based on polling, Trump would win on the issues and a better strategy would be for him to present himself as somewhat reasonable and coherent to the general public - yet he is unable or unwilling to do so. . . The psychological attacks against Trump seem to be working so far and imo, Kamala wins a contest of mental fitness and personality. I think it smart for Harris' campaign to troll Trump / Vance on MAGA conspiracy theories. They always double-down and it plays well into the "weird" framing. 

Schools have been closed for two days in Springfield due to bomb threats. Yet Trump is incapable of saying "bomb threats to elementary schools have no place in political discourse". Instead, he doubles down on blatant lies about pet-eating immigrants and JD Vance posts a debunked video of immigrants cooking cats in Dayton. Vance is a senator of Ohio, making the story even more bizarre.

Edited September 15 by Forestluv