Eternal punishment

[Hojo]

@MarioGabrielJ it does exist but i think it has to do with your mood. Your mood is Gods mood if you die in a bad mood God has a bad mood. When God has a bad mood is attacks itself.To not go to hell disassociate from everything things are what put you in a bad mood.

Edited August 31 by Hojo

[Salvijus]

Here's another one. 

Would you ever wish someone eternal hell? If no, than you're more virtuous than God. But that doesn't sound right. So there must be a flaw in there somewhere. 

[Spiritual Warfare]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Okay here's one way to debunk this. 

Punishment has to be equal in proportion to the sin. Otherwise God is not just. And the Bible says God is justice. 

To be punished eternally you'd have to make an action worthy of eternity. But no action can ever compare with eternity. 

Debunked. 

I agree that finite crimes do not warrant eternal punishment. It raises the question of whether God might be perceived as unjust or even malevolent for imposing such a severe consequence. This perspective invites a deeper exploration of the nature of divine justice and morality.

[Spiritual Warfare]

17 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@MarioGabrielJ it does exist but i think it has to do with your mood. Your mood is Gods mood if you die in a bad mood God has a bad mood. When God has a bad mood is attacks itself.To not go to hell disassociate from everything things are what put you in a bad mood.

Yes, that's something I've been contemplating quite a bit lately.

[Spiritual Warfare]

6 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Here's another one. 

Would you ever wish someone eternal hell? If no, than you're more virtuous than God. But that doesn't sound right. So there must be a flaw in there somewhere. 

Yeah👍 

[Salvijus]

Lol this is a good one. 

Would you ever wish someone eternal hell? If no, than you're more virtuous than God. That means God should be in a worse punishment than you even  or he is not just. 

[Spiritual Warfare]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

Lol this is a good one. 

Would you ever wish someone eternal hell? If no, than you're more virtuous than God. That means God should be in a worse punishment than you even  or he is not just. 

I agree, and if God embodies unconditional love, it raises the question: why would there be a need for punishment? This contradiction prompts us to reflect on the nature of divine love and justice.

[Breakingthewall]

impossible by definition, since the only eternal thing is the absolute, anything else is relative, finite.

well, the relative is also infinite, but only in depth, it is finite in extension. That is, it is infinite because it really is the absolute, but it is finite in terms of concrete form.

Edited August 31 by Breakingthewall

[Spiritual Warfare]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

impossible by definition, since the only eternal thing is the absolute, anything else is relative, finite.

Absolutely! Everything originates from a single source. It's astonishing how deeply the concept of Hell can penetrate our minds, despite its apparent falsehood. Fear tactics are no joke! Some argue that religions today should be banned.

[Exystem]

I was being raised fundamentalist christian, this was preached to me in early childhood and gave me nightmares and sleepless nights en masse. I couldn't love Jesus wholeheartedly because of this, I realized my faith was worth nothing if it stems from fear and not love, so I had to accept quite early on I am not really a christian, which made things worse in the beginning, until I broke out of that dogma. Now I can appreciate this, since it made me very interested in philosophy and rational reasoning from very early on, I spent hundreds of hours to solve that dilemma. So I can empathize with everyone quite well who suffers from these thoughts. They can be absolutely life crippling.

 

So here are some things I can share that may help:

Concerning the bible itself:

- the word "hell" is a very, very bad translation, there are actually 3-4 different words for it, all translated as hell (thanks Luther et Lucifer). For example "gehenna" which was a place, a part outside of jerusalem where corps were burned. It was a place of definite death, a place where things vanish and never come back. Complete destruction, no life whatsoever. No living on for eternity, just death dead. Or the word "the sea of fire", where in the end everything gets completely destroyed once and for all. Also "the second death" refers to not only the death of the body, but also the death of the soul, so no sentience is left over. All the words actually refer to complete death, destruction, annihilation, not an eternal torture chamber. Yes, this death may be tortorus, but it ends.

- the word for "eternity" is originally greek and is "from aeon to aeon" which actually means "from age to age", it means a particular timeframe. It can be wrongly translated as eternal, but actually it is just referring to a large time frame. So the part where things like souls and satan will be thrown into "hell" is a particular age with a beginning and end, and after that, the whole design/setup will be thrown into "the sea of fire", where it all gets destroyed completely, the second death, the death of death.

- there are Christian sects like the adventists who dismiss the idea of eternal hell completely. They say your soul just gets annihilated.

- how could you reconcile a loving god with hell? Have you seen these people preaching about hell being in a loving energy? They spread fear, arrogance and rage with every fibre of their being if you listen behind their hypocrite poisonous words. They need to convince you of that crap because they are deeply unease and unsure themselves.

- jesus died for ALL the sins, not only for those who accepted him. But those who accepted him will be rewarded according to the bible, since they can live in his presence. The others wouldn't enjoy gods presence, the light, since their deeds are meant to be kept hidden, secret, so they fear the light of truth, gods presence. If there is no way to change that with free will, repent and ask for forgiveness, let yourself purge with gods light, arent you just a shadow of yourself, a soulless robot that Moment? In which way does a loving god enjoy torturing crying robots endlessly? Why not get rid of those sad mimimis?

- would a real christian prefer mercy or justice? The whole new testament is about how the old rule "an eye for an eye" doesn't account anymore, but now "if someone hits you on the right cheek, turn your left cheek towards him". Christians say god is mercyful, yet they have no better option than to say god is condemned to let you suffer forever since that is what is required of him because god claims to be just and god needs to be exactly how he says. When you argue with christians they will say something like " nah, hitler can't go to heaven, he was too evil and didn't accept jesus, it would be unfair to the jews." But wouldn't a christian jew, forever in paradise, shit on his 5 years in hell and say wholeheartedly: "ok hitler, you tortured me five years. Well, I'm in paradise forever because jesus died for all my sins and safed me from the hell I would have earned like every human being according to mainstream christianity, of course I will not want you to suffer forever because of my hipocrit revengeful sadistic thoughts of hatred and inhumane "justice"."?? Wouldn't every sane man with a tiny bit of love in his heart have enough justice after thousands of years of torture to forgive his brother for what he has done wrong on earth? Ask those christians whether they would forgive their tormentors. They have to say "yes" because jesus preached it 24/7. But they will weasel around and say something like "the tormentors who don't accept the forgiveness want to be tormented". Then ask them if they accept your forgiveness because they torment you with these ideas. If they don't ask for forgiveness, say them they obviously want to get tormented and they shall not wonder when jesus will reject them in heaven because they have no love in their hearts and they will be judged by the same measure they judge others, which means they think it's okay to be tormented forever when you don't accept forgiveness. Then they will say something like: "only jesus can forgive your sins." Then you can answer like: "in the name of god, I am Jesus!", give them a sad compassionate look with a hand on your heart and slowly turn around and walk away. This will probably make them reflect on their hypocrisy. For the greater good of all.

 

Non-biblical reasons:

- get a serious awakening, realize you are inevitable, you are existence itself, there is nothing else existence is existing for but itself (you), you are not just a product (Haleluja-clapper) for a consumer (god), you are the cause, the means and the end of existence, the alpha and omega itself.

- eternal refers to a never ending time. Time is a measure of change. Something that doesn't change (like a very bad mood forever) will less and less be registered by conscoiusness since the more constant something is, the more it becomes part of identity instead of experience. You would literally become the bad mood itself, not suffer from it for eternity. If you become the darkness, you won't know about that, since there is only light you can perceive. Everything balances out within time. Every bad becomes the new neutral over time, if constant enough. This is not just a mechanism of the human psyche, but existential for consciousness. If there is a realm of pure darkness, a single beam of light becomes infinitely bright, as written in the bible "a single candle can light the darknes". If there is nothing but darkness, who could define it as that since there is no contrast?

- Suffering = pain x resistance
Pain is the alarm of the body to be close to death. And to suffer, you need to resist. You can only resist something that is not eternal. For eternal suffering you need to resist eternally. And have a body who constantly alarms you to die. If you are able to resist eternally, the you who is capable of that obviously doesn't have to fear death since it resists (lives) eternally. So the pain (alarm that you may die) is seen through as complete illusion. In high awakenings you can exactly see through that game. No pain. Just a prank

[shree]

@Exystem beautifully written.

 

I didn’t know you were also raised as a Christian fundamentalist. We basically went through the same struggles when it comes to this.

[Exystem]

38 minutes ago, shree said:

 

@Exystem beautifully written.

 

I didn’t know you were also raised as a Christian fundamentalist. We basically went through the same struggles when it comes to this.

 

Thanks @shree

Interesting! Yeah, it was quite a pain in the ass. The other part was my father didn't really have the sensitivity to know which stories of the old testament are definitely not meant for children. And he constantly reminded me that we already live in "the end times". In those times, christians get killed, locked away and tortured. Problem: "if you deny Jesus, Jesus will deny you" (bible). So under extreme torture, according to him you should stay strong and stay true to jesus. Of course my creative fantasy was beginning to imagine all kinds of horrors. In my mind I tried to invent different suicide methods that can work even with a completely fixated body...
So these were my prospects as a five year old: Either you get tortured to death and resist the temptation over and over again to end that by denying jesus or you get tortured forever

Or in short: How you forge a serious philosopher

Now I really love my parents and see how they acted out of love, they were worried about me and my future. They didn't know better. And of course, it was actually me pranking myself. Such a great bullshit I could convince myself of for a while! Wow!! 🤯

 

[shree]

6 minutes ago, Exystem said:

Thanks @shree

Interesting! Yeah, it was quite a pain in the ass. The other part was my father didn't really have the sensitivity to know which stories of the old testament are definitely not meant for children. And he constantly reminded me that we already live in "the end times". In those times, christians get killed, locked away and tortured. Problem: "if you deny Jesus, Jesus will deny you" (bible). So under extreme torture, according to him you should stay strong and stay true to jesus. Of course my creative fantasy was beginning to imagine all kinds of horrors. In my mind I tried to invent different suicide methods that can work even with a completely fixated body...
So these were my prospects as a five year old: Either you get tortured to death and resist the temptation over and over again to end that by denying jesus or you get tortured forever

Or in short: How you forge a serious philosopher

Now I really love my parents and see how they acted out of love, they were worried about me and my future. They didn't know better. And of course, it was actually me pranking myself. Such a great bullshit I could convince myself of for a while! Wow!! 🤯

 

Reframing the statement "they didn't know better" to "they refused to look at themselves" feels like a healthier approach that holds them accountable for their actions.

 

When I reach organic forgiveness, I will consider reframing it as you suggested.

 

Yeah, you eventually get to a point where you think, "Okay, I’m probably going to hell for this... but I’m already in hell, so what’s the point?"

 

And then the work begins.

 

As I stated previously, this is a largely overlooked form of child abuse. Nonetheless, there are much worse stories I’ve read about, like burning kids' skin with fire to show them how "hell" feels.

 

But yes, I remember having subtle panic attacks during simple bad weather, thinking the end of the world was coming...

[Exystem]

3 minutes ago, shree said:

Reframing the statement "they didn't know better" to "they refused to look at themselves" feels like a healthier approach that holds them accountable for their actions.

 

I realized that actually my dad is overcompensating his own insecurity with his faith. Of course he was refusing to look at the abyss where all his beliefs that helped him escape his own hell would crumble (before he became christian, he was into occult powers for the wrong reasons and was kind of haunted by demons). But I have compassion with people running from their greatest fears since I do it myself. Otherwise I probably wouldn't imagine this human world I guess

9 minutes ago, shree said:

Yeah, you eventually get to a point where you think, "Okay, I’m probably going to hell for this... but I’m already in hell, so what’s the point?"

 

Kind of true... I mean I was a child, I sometimes forgot about that and just played around and had fun. I even was a bad child in the sense that I did some heavy pranks on people. But sometimes I was quite desperate and had no one to turn to. All my friends were happy going to heaven and told me to shut up since I made them question their beliefs. Now I am so glad to not be stuck there anymore. So much more liberated than they want you to believe they are...

15 minutes ago, shree said:

As I stated previously, this is a largely overlooked form of child abuse. Nonetheless, there are much worse stories I’ve read about, like burning kids' skin with fire to show them how "hell" feels.

Oh damn, that's heavy! Glad I didn't have that treatment. I wonder how it was some hundred years ago, I guess standard procedure.

16 minutes ago, shree said:

But yes, I remember having subtle panic attacks during simple bad weather, thinking the end of the world was coming...

That sounds quite shitty!  I know that feeling, every time I couldn't find my parents quickly thoughts arose like: "Were my parents raptured and now I am left back with the sinners?"

[shree]

6 minutes ago, Exystem said:

That sounds quite shitty!  I know that feeling, every time I couldn't find my parents quickly thoughts arose like: "Were my parents raptured and now I am left back with the sinners?"

Don't forget all the relationships you didn't have with hot girls because they were perceived as sinfull 

 

8 minutes ago, Exystem said:

I realized that actually my dad is overcompensating his own insecurity with his faith. Of course he was refusing to look at the abyss where all his beliefs that helped him escape his own hell would crumble (before he became christian, he was into occult powers for the wrong reasons and was kind of haunted by demons). 

Wow, that's heavy.

8 minutes ago, Exystem said:

 All my friends were happy going to heaven and told me to shut up since I made them question their beliefs. 

I remember talking badly about those friends with my mom, because we had "stronger belief than them". A nice coping strategy to make yourself feel better in your own misery.

10 minutes ago, Exystem said:

All my friends were happy going to heaven and told me to shut up since I made them question their beliefs. Now I am so glad to not be stuck there anymore. So much more liberated than they want you to believe they are...

Yes, I feel like I needed that experience to hit rock bottom in order to find the ambition to rediscover my infinite nature.

 

"That which wants to reach for the heights must first have roots that reach down to hell."  F. Nietzsche

He stated it beautifully.

[Spiritual Warfare]

8 hours ago, Exystem said:

I was being raised fundamentalist christian, this was preached to me in early childhood and gave me nightmares and sleepless nights en masse. I couldn't love Jesus wholeheartedly because of this, I realized my faith was worth nothing if it stems from fear and not love, so I had to accept quite early on I am not really a christian, which made things worse in the beginning, until I broke out of that dogma. Now I can appreciate this, since it made me very interested in philosophy and rational reasoning from very early on, I spent hundreds of hours to solve that dilemma. So I can empathize with everyone quite well who suffers from these thoughts. They can be absolutely life crippling.

 

So here are some things I can share that may help:

Concerning the bible itself:

- the word "hell" is a very, very bad translation, there are actually 3-4 different words for it, all translated as hell (thanks Luther et Lucifer). For example "gehenna" which was a place, a part outside of jerusalem where corps were burned. It was a place of definite death, a place where things vanish and never come back. Complete destruction, no life whatsoever. No living on for eternity, just death dead. Or the word "the sea of fire", where in the end everything gets completely destroyed once and for all. Also "the second death" refers to not only the death of the body, but also the death of the soul, so no sentience is left over. All the words actually refer to complete death, destruction, annihilation, not an eternal torture chamber. Yes, this death may be tortorus, but it ends.

- the word for "eternity" is originally greek and is "from aeon to aeon" which actually means "from age to age", it means a particular timeframe. It can be wrongly translated as eternal, but actually it is just referring to a large time frame. So the part where things like souls and satan will be thrown into "hell" is a particular age with a beginning and end, and after that, the whole design/setup will be thrown into "the sea of fire", where it all gets destroyed completely, the second death, the death of death.

- there are Christian sects like the adventists who dismiss the idea of eternal hell completely. They say your soul just gets annihilated.

- how could you reconcile a loving god with hell? Have you seen these people preaching about hell being in a loving energy? They spread fear, arrogance and rage with every fibre of their being if you listen behind their hypocrite poisonous words. They need to convince you of that crap because they are deeply unease and unsure themselves.

- jesus died for ALL the sins, not only for those who accepted him. But those who accepted him will be rewarded according to the bible, since they can live in his presence. The others wouldn't enjoy gods presence, the light, since their deeds are meant to be kept hidden, secret, so they fear the light of truth, gods presence. If there is no way to change that with free will, repent and ask for forgiveness, let yourself purge with gods light, arent you just a shadow of yourself, a soulless robot that Moment? In which way does a loving god enjoy torturing crying robots endlessly? Why not get rid of those sad mimimis?

- would a real christian prefer mercy or justice? The whole new testament is about how the old rule "an eye for an eye" doesn't account anymore, but now "if someone hits you on the right cheek, turn your left cheek towards him". Christians say god is mercyful, yet they have no better option than to say god is condemned to let you suffer forever since that is what is required of him because god claims to be just and god needs to be exactly how he says. When you argue with christians they will say something like " nah, hitler can't go to heaven, he was too evil and didn't accept jesus, it would be unfair to the jews." But wouldn't a christian jew, forever in paradise, shit on his 5 years in hell and say wholeheartedly: "ok hitler, you tortured me five years. Well, I'm in paradise forever because jesus died for all my sins and safed me from the hell I would have earned like every human being according to mainstream christianity, of course I will not want you to suffer forever because of my hipocrit revengeful sadistic thoughts of hatred and inhumane "justice"."?? Wouldn't every sane man with a tiny bit of love in his heart have enough justice after thousands of years of torture to forgive his brother for what he has done wrong on earth? Ask those christians whether they would forgive their tormentors. They have to say "yes" because jesus preached it 24/7. But they will weasel around and say something like "the tormentors who don't accept the forgiveness want to be tormented". Then ask them if they accept your forgiveness because they torment you with these ideas. If they don't ask for forgiveness, say them they obviously want to get tormented and they shall not wonder when jesus will reject them in heaven because they have no love in their hearts and they will be judged by the same measure they judge others, which means they think it's okay to be tormented forever when you don't accept forgiveness. Then they will say something like: "only jesus can forgive your sins." Then you can answer like: "in the name of god, I am Jesus!", give them a sad compassionate look with a hand on your heart and slowly turn around and walk away. This will probably make them reflect on their hypocrisy. For the greater good of all.

 

Non-biblical reasons:

- get a serious awakening, realize you are inevitable, you are existence itself, there is nothing else existence is existing for but itself (you), you are not just a product (Haleluja-clapper) for a consumer (god), you are the cause, the means and the end of existence, the alpha and omega itself.

- eternal refers to a never ending time. Time is a measure of change. Something that doesn't change (like a very bad mood forever) will less and less be registered by conscoiusness since the more constant something is, the more it becomes part of identity instead of experience. You would literally become the bad mood itself, not suffer from it for eternity. If you become the darkness, you won't know about that, since there is only light you can perceive. Everything balances out within time. Every bad becomes the new neutral over time, if constant enough. This is not just a mechanism of the human psyche, but existential for consciousness. If there is a realm of pure darkness, a single beam of light becomes infinitely bright, as written in the bible "a single candle can light the darknes". If there is nothing but darkness, who could define it as that since there is no contrast?

- Suffering = pain x resistance
Pain is the alarm of the body to be close to death. And to suffer, you need to resist. You can only resist something that is not eternal. For eternal suffering you need to resist eternally. And have a body who constantly alarms you to die. If you are able to resist eternally, the you who is capable of that obviously doesn't have to fear death since it resists (lives) eternally. So the pain (alarm that you may die) is seen through as complete illusion. In high awakenings you can exactly see through that game. No pain. Just a prank

Thank you for your response! It clarified many points for me, and I'm sure it will resonate with others as well. Religious trauma can be profoundly devastating and, at times, utterly repulsive. I'm grateful you have moved beyond those harmful beliefs. It's disheartening to see how religion can often function as a mechanism of fear, designed to keep individuals in a state of mental bondage. This approach can be extremely damaging, not only to personal well-being but also to our understanding of freedom and autonomy.

[Atb210201]

Leave the judgment or the forgiveness to God

Trust Him for knowing everything and having no flaw in Him

Trust that He is pure Light

Do not think about what concerns God

Think only about what concerns you

Leave your end and others end at the hands of God

Whatever God decides should happen to anyone is the Ultimate Good

Edited September 1 by Atb210201

[Exystem]

8 hours ago, shree said:

Don't forget all the relationships you didn't have with hot girls because they were perceived as sinfull 

Oh dammit, ALLLL those hot which girlfriends I denied!!! I could cry a river...

8 hours ago, shree said:

I remember talking badly about those friends with my mom, because we had "stronger belief than them". A nice coping strategy to make yourself feel better in your own misery.

Interesting, it's crazy how the mind copes with it.

8 hours ago, shree said:

Yes, I feel like I needed that experience to hit rock bottom in order to find the ambition to rediscover my infinite nature.

 

"That which wants to reach for the heights must first have roots that reach down to hell."  F. Nietzsche

He stated it beautifully.

In deed! In my story, I guess it also made me more resilient to suffering. For example each time I get a pain a thought comes up: "well, still worlds better than torture."

 

2 hours ago, MarioGabrielJ said:

Thank you for your response! It clarified many points for me, and I'm sure it will resonate with others as well. Religious trauma can be profoundly devastating and, at times, utterly repulsive. I'm grateful you have moved beyond those harmful beliefs. It's disheartening to see how religion can often function as a mechanism of fear, designed to keep individuals in a state of mental bondage. This approach can be extremely damaging, not only to personal well-being but also to our understanding of freedom and autonomy.

@MarioGabrielJ happy to read your appreciation, thanks

I hope it reaches the right ones. In the last thread about it I didn't have enough time at that instance to answer in detail. There are so many reasons why this religion is flawed in general and I wish I could help people free themselves from those bondages, but I stopped forcing it on people long ago. You need to be ready and willing to face the truth, otherwise these doubts make things worse. That's the really bad part: even though people intuit its inate bs and can't rationalize the belief system anymore, they are too scared to let it go and try to vomit out the red pill.

[Ramu]

This forum isn't about or for religious views.  Eternal punishment,  etc bullshit. 

[Schizophonia]

47 minutes ago, Ramu said:

This forum isn't about or for religious views.  Eternal punishment,  etc bullshit. 

He ruminates.