Direct experience versus second hand experience

[AION]

For example you can read 10 books on Spain but you visiting the country will trump all the books you read. 

But the thing is that direct experience can be deceitful. For example your direct experience might tell you the world is flat because it looks like it but the books and science might say something else. 

This counts for spirituality too. Not everything you see will be the truth. This parable is explained in the mythology of the life tree and the lake. It is easily to be deceived by the reflection of the water and you might not know what is real and a reflection. 

Edited August 28 by AION

[Leo Gura]

The world could be flat. You won't know for sure without direct experience.

The problem in your logic is that you're begging the question and assuimg the world is round when the truth is that that's just a belief.

Edited August 28 by Leo Gura

[LSD-Rumi]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The world could be flat. You won't know for sure without direct experience.

The problem in your logic is that you're begging the question and assuimg the world is round when the truth is that that's just a belief.

I have a direct experience of science, so I don't have to travel to space to have a direct experience of the shape of Earth.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

I have a direct experience of science

No you don't. You have a science fantasy.

[LSD-Rumi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

No you don't. You have a science fantasy.

How is that? I tested science starting from doubting 1 plus 1=2
 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

How is that? I tested science starting from doubting 1 plus 1=2

Has nothing to do with Earth being round.

[Jannes]

In your direct experience you are aware of shapes, colors, sounds, feelings, the experience of thought, sensations, ... none of these things are conceptual. Conceptual knowledge is not direct. Unless it is possible that in a certain conceptual knowledge there is direct experience in it like in a poem or when god would speak through you or something crazy like that. 

[LSD-Rumi]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Has nothing to do with Earth being round.

Conceptual knowledge is some kind of direct experience too.

If you use a satellite to take a video of Earth, is that a direct experience?

or do you need to be shuttled into space to see it for yourself?

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The world could be flat. You won't know for sure without direct experience.

Do you seriously believe that? or are you saying it for the sake of the argument?

 

Edited August 28 by LSD-Rumi

[Hojo]

The earth is flat because reality is flat. Literally everything is 2d. In your direct experience the planet is flat so it is. People cannot tell you 100 percent the earth is not flat because they just read it in a book or watched a video. Even then trying to debate you about it is a sign they don't know. No one would debate you on it a glass of water is a glass of water but they will debate flat earth because they don't know they just have a strong opinion. But reality is deceitful. You cant know that space is a real place you can go to. You cant know that every celebrity you have seen in space is not ai.

Edited August 28 by Hojo

[Jannes]

1 minute ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Conceptual knowledge is some kind of direct experience too.

Of course thoughts have an experienceable quality to them which is direct experience. 

[Jannes]

6 minutes ago, Hojo said:

The earth is flat because reality is flat. Literally everything is 2d. 

hmm idk I think dimension is a concept yes but seeing in 3d might just be direct experience because thats how humans experience reality. You dont need to learn about 3d or even know what it is to see in 3d. 

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Conceptual knowledge is some kind of direct experience too.

Yes, but not in the way you want.

Quote

If you use a satellite to take a video of Earth, is that a direct experience?

No

Quote

or do you need to be shuttled into space to see it for yourself?

Yes

Quote

Do you seriously believe that?

That is literally the truth.

For you, the shape of the Earth is a belief. It is critical that you recognize this.

Edited August 28 by Leo Gura

[Girzo]

Earth itself is a belief. THIS is not the Earth.

[LastThursday]

6 hours ago, AION said:

science might say something else

How does science comes to its conclusions? Shared direct experience.

[Hojo]

@Jannes 3d - being attached to a 2d object that can appear to move forward and backward. Conciousness dosent move across dimensions it is the traveller of all dimensions. Each dimension is just a appearance of consciousness moving in a new way imo. Right now you can look ahead of you 1d, move your eyes 2d, move your body backward and forward 3d. Dying is like going to 0 d.

Edited August 28 by Hojo

[UnbornTao]

What does it mean to experience something directly? How much of our knowledge is sourced externally–coming from family, teachers, culture? 

What is the difference between experience and idea?

What is assumed that hasn't been personally experienced?

Edited August 30 by UnbornTao

[Jannes]

 

13 hours ago, Hojo said:

Right now you can look ahead of you 1d, move your eyes 2d, move your body backward and forward 3d. Dying is like going to 0 d.

No, I cant comprehend 1d because I would need to filter out way too much.

I automatically see 3d without doing anything (unless I am in a very special place which is designed so my brain cant comprehend 3d which might be possible). But in general I dont need conceptual knowledge to grasp 3d just like an ape doesnt know about dimensions and he still manages to see in 3d. 

I think we can only imagine how it's like to see in lower dimensions but I dont think we can actually do it. 

[LSD-Rumi]

On 8/28/2024 at 7:50 PM, Leo Gura said:

For you, the shape of the Earth is a belief. It is critical that you recognize this.

Even if a belief is based on solid ground? I don't need to see Earth to determine if it is round In the same way, I don't need to shoot myself in the foot to determine if bullets actually hurt or not.

Edited August 30 by LSD-Rumi

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Even if a belief is based on solid ground?

You believe it's solid ground, which is question begging.

[UnbornTao]

Whether it is true or false is beside the point here. Recognize whether it is believed or experienced.

A personal experience is, in this context, encountering the reality or fact of some condition, event, or dynamic, as in becoming aware of something. This recognition is grounded on the presence of something, not just your thoughts about it.

Another distinction to make is whether the information source is valid–science, etc.

The exercise helps us acknowledge our "epistemic" ignorance about whole domains and subjects, without necessarily having to disbelieve the given assessment, which would be doing the same activity.

Edited August 31 by UnbornTao