Pavel Durov arrested in France

[questionreality]

For those that don't know, In 2018 Russia started to block Telegram, after Durov refused to give access to encrypted private messages to FSB. (federal security service)

Their reasoning for getting access was exactly the same -it is being used by terrorists, etc. In actuality, they needed it so they could crack down on opposition and liberal leaning people.

The guy could have stayed in Russia, worked with the authorities and been even richer - but he out of principle decided not to.

In the West though, you got fools (or idiots) who call themselves "liberals", who don't understand how good they have it, that are ready to voluntarily give up their rights and freedoms - for which true liberals in countries like Russia fight for.

 

Edited August 25 by questionreality

[Girzo]

I mean, guys, Telegram is an app where you type in some random emoticons like 🍀🍄💎🥦❄️💊 and find local drug dealers. It's no wonder he has problems, when having no moderation. It's all public chats.

No defense for the guy on that front.

[Moutushi]

5 hours ago, questionreality said:

Fools like you don't value what they have, nor appreciate people who stand up for your right to privacy and free speech. 

Poor understanding of history is a big reason, other than the ignorance imo.

What's funny, is that in countries like Russia and China, the governments do exactly what you want  - censor, moderate and prosecute people by having full access to private messages of the messengers. And that's why Durov escaped Russia so he doesn't have to deal with that BS.

You would be the first one crying about this if you were to live in Russia or China.

 

@questionreality There's no need for name-calling, and I can see you are new to this forum, please refrain from that here, it's not the place for it. This is an open forum where we are free to have our own opinions on political and societal matters. 

I appreciate you sharing what you shared about the video interview Durov had with CNN, it shines more light on this matter.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

I use telegram, and it is such a vile app. If you go to some telegram channels supporting countries that are at war (Russian war channels, Ukrainian channels, Israeli channels, etc...) its sickening. There's people posting images of corpses and mocking them with emojis and music, people rooting for the deaths of civilians, aid workers, and posting their corpses. 

 

[Moutushi]

1 hour ago, Moutushi said:

@questionreality There's no need for name-calling, and I can see you are new to this forum, please refrain from that here, it's not the place for it. This is an open forum where we are free to have our own opinions on political and societal matters. 

I appreciate you sharing what you shared about the video interview Durov had with CNN, it shines more light on this matter.

Don't mean to "moderate" you @questionreality, but this is an excerpt from the guidelines Leo shared related to this sub-forum. 

 

"This sub-forum is meant to be a nuanced (Spiral Dynamics Tier 2) discussion of politics, not a culture war. Discuss political issues from a systemic level.
Be here with an open mind. Be here to learn. If you are just here spreading your pet ideology you will probably end up banned. Make your arguments without resorting to personal insults, name-calling, or strawmanning. Be nuanced and understanding of the complexities of social issues. Things are rarely black & white in this domain. Usually every POV has some degree of partial truth so it's a matter of carefully sorting through the nuances."

[questionreality]

@Moutushi Using the word fool is not named calling, this word is used quite often on this forum. Don't try to play the victim or the rule card with me, it won't work.

 

[questionreality]

Here is what Snowden said:

"The arrest of Durov is an assault on the basic human rights of speech and association. I am surprised and deeply saddened that Macron has descended to the level of taking hostages as a means for gaining access to private communications. It lowers not only France, but the world.."

https://x.com/Snowden/status/1827695836832334169

 

[Dioxide2533]

Durov got kidnapped by the French government so they can pressure him into turning telegram into another propaganda machine for Ukraine and Israel.

Telegram does take down many group chats that are reported for illegal things. I have seen this in multiple piracy group chats.

These apps should not be forced to be "moderated", which is just Newspeak for censorship. (even for public group chats)

They are doing the same Putin did to him with VK.
I hope they can't get to Elon next.

Edited August 26 by Dioxide2533

[questionreality]

The French Prosecutors had a press release today: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26 - CP TELEGRAM .pdf

Pavel Durov is facing these 12 charges:

1)Complicity in the administration of an online platform to enable illegal transactions.
2)Refusal to provide information upon requests from authorized bodies.
3)Complicity in possession of pornographic images of minors.
4)Complicity in the distribution of pornographic images of minors by an organized group.
5)Complicity in drug distribution.
6)Complicity in the distribution of hacker programs.
7)Complicity in fraud committed by an organized group.
8)Creation of an organized group for the purpose of committing crimes punishable by imprisonment for a term of at least five years.
9)Laundering of money obtained as a result of the activities of an organized criminal group.
10)Provision of cryptographic services aimed at ensuring confidentiality, without mandatory declaration.
11)Illegal provision of cryptography beyond what is necessary to ensure confidentiality.
12)Illegal import of cryptographic tools beyond those necessary to ensure confidentiality.

 

[questionreality]

This case will be a huge precedent with how other governments will act in the future.

The logic is also beyond absurd as well with these charges - Those same criminals also use phones, cars, etc.  Should they then arrest the CEOs of Apple, Google, of BMW, etc as well?

 

[What Am I]

13)Complicity in not providing France an easily accessible backdoor into Telegram.

Yes, the creation of precedent here is quite terrifying.

Edited August 26 by What Am I

[Nemra]

6 minutes ago, questionreality said:

5) Complicity in drug distribution.
6) Complicity in the distribution of hacker programs.

I have seen many Telegram groups that do these things.

[What Am I]

8 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I have seen many Telegram groups that do these things.

There's no doubt users on the platform are guilty of crimes. But like questionreality mentioned, that's true of most communications networks.

10)Provision of cryptographic services aimed at ensuring confidentiality, without mandatory declaration.

This one is especially bad. Is this part of the EU's new DSA? Are you not allowed to use encryption at will in EU countries?

11)Illegal provision of cryptography beyond what is necessary to ensure confidentiality.
12)Illegal import of cryptographic tools beyond those necessary to ensure confidentiality.

I wonder how this qualifier is determined.

Edited August 26 by What Am I

[Nemra]

I like Telegram, but the public stuff should be moderated.

[What Am I]

5 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I like Telegram, but the public stuff should be moderated.

Probably true, at least to some degree.

[questionreality]

6 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I like Telegram, but the public stuff should be moderated.

The public stuff is already being moderated, Telegram has already deleted a lot of the stuff upon requests.

What authorities are demanding, is access to private messages/chats of certain users, which Durov is not willing to give. He refused to give in to the same demands of Russian government with VK and Telegram, that's why he had to leave Russia.

In the big picture this is a battle of privacy/free speech and will be a huge precedent going forward.

[What Am I]

 

[Nemra]

1 minute ago, questionreality said:

The public stuff is already being moderated, Telegram has already deleted a lot of the stuff upon requests.

I disagree. It's not enough.

Have you explored Telegram?

5 minutes ago, questionreality said:

In the big picture this is a battle of privacy/free speech and will be a huge precedent going forward.

I think that's more important for people in countries like Russia.

[What Am I]

12 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I disagree. It's not enough.

Have you explored Telegram?

The need for additional moderation is relative and a matter of opinion, but I think you're probably right. Telegram pushes really hard against the limits of what's acceptable, both to governments and even to the average person.

12 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I think that's more important for people in countries like Russia.

As someone who pays attention to the tech and security side of things, I'd have to disagree. No matter which country you're in, similar removals of allowed communication opacity are likely coming your way.

Edited August 26 by What Am I

[Nemra]

2 minutes ago, What Am I said:

As someone who pays attention to the tech and security side of things, I'd have to disagree. No matter which county you're in, similar removals of allowed communication opacity are coming your way.

Ok, it could be right or wrong on the tech side, but you're not losing your actual free speech.

I don't think Russians really have free speech in the first place.