Pavel Durov arrested in France

[questionreality]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-ceo-pavel-durov-arrested-france-tf1-tv-says-2024-08-24/

The charges are rumored to be support for terrorism, drug trafficking, complicity in crimes, mass fraud, money laundering, concealment, pedophile content, and more.

He refused the demands on French government and didn't censor his platform - now they got him. Funny enough he left Russia as government also wanted access to all users but he refused, but ironically now the Western government has arrested him.

Looks like they are really targeting those who stand up for free speech and privacy.

Is Elon Musk next?

 

Edit: The French Prosecutors had a press release today: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26 - CP TELEGRAM .pdf

Pavel Durov is facing these 12 charges:

1)Complicity in the administration of an online platform to enable illegal transactions.
2)Refusal to provide information upon requests from authorized bodies.
3)Complicity in possession of pornographic images of minors.
4)Complicity in the distribution of pornographic images of minors by an organized group.
5)Complicity in drug distribution.
6)Complicity in the distribution of hacker programs.
7)Complicity in fraud committed by an organized group.
8)Creation of an organized group for the purpose of committing crimes punishable by imprisonment for a term of at least five years.
9)Laundering of money obtained as a result of the activities of an organized criminal group.
10)Provision of cryptographic services aimed at ensuring confidentiality, without mandatory declaration.
11)Illegal provision of cryptography beyond what is necessary to ensure confidentiality.
12)Illegal import of cryptographic tools beyond those necessary to ensure confidentiality.

 

Edited August 26 by questionreality

[Moutushi]

2 hours ago, questionreality said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-ceo-pavel-durov-arrested-france-tf1-tv-says-2024-08-24/

The charges are rumored to be support for terrorism, drug trafficking, complicity in crimes, mass fraud, money laundering, concealment, pedophile content, and more.

He refused the demands on French government and didn't censor his platform - now they got him. Funny enough he left Russia as government also wanted access to all users but he refused, but ironically now the Western government has arrested him.

Looks like they are really targeting those who stand up for free speech and privacy.

Is Elon Musk next?

 

Durov was arrested as he had a French arrest warrant out for him, due to the lack of moderation on Telegram which led to it being used for money laundering, drug trafficking, and sharing pedophilic content. I wouldn't call that a targeted attack on freedom of speech

[Moutushi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's refreshing that Europe actually enforces social media regulations, unlike the US.

Yes, I was glad to see the news of his arrest. More moderate moderation is needed, not less, as so-called freedom of speech fighters ask for

[Leo Gura]

I retract my statement because Telegram is mostly an encrypted private messaging app. I don't endorse moderation of private messages. If that's what he got arrested for it is wrong.

But Telegram also does public group chats, and those probably need moderation. So it's complicated. I'd like so see more details about what he is charged with.

Edited August 25 by Leo Gura

[Moutushi]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I retract my statement because Telegram is mostly an encrypted private messaging app. I don't endorse moderation of private messages. If that's what he got arrested for it is wrong.

But Telegram also does public group chats, and those probably need moderation. So it's complicated.

Yes, I also agree with public group chats being moderated to prevent illegal or harmful activity, my interest is in the debate on where that line needs to be drawn, and less on whether it needs to be drawn or not

Edited August 25 by Moutushi

[Moutushi]

@Leo Gura

 

Update from CNN today. 

French authorities have detained Pavel Durov, the French-Russian billionaire who founded the messaging app Telegram, at an airport outside Paris, according to CNN affiliate BFMTV.

Officers from France’s anti-fraud office, attached to French customs, took him into custody Saturday evening after he arrived at Bourget Airport on a flight from Azerbaijan, BFMTV reported.

Durov, 39, was wanted under a French arrest warrant due to the lack of moderation on Telegram which led to it being used for money laundering, drug trafficking and sharing pedophilic content, according to BFMTV.

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Moutushi said:

Durov, 39, was wanted under a French arrest warrant due to the lack of moderation on Telegram which led to it being used for money laundering, drug trafficking and sharing pedophilic content, according to BFMTV.

Yeah, I know that. But that description of the charges is too vague to have a meaningful judgment of whether it is right or wrong.

Edited August 25 by Leo Gura

[Moutushi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, I know that. But that description of the charges is too vague to have a meaningful judgment of whether it is right or wrong.

From what I've read so far, in a nutshell, Durov is basically at fault for failing to take action to curb the criminal use of his platform. If proven, that alone would carry enough weight to justify criminal charges against him.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Moutushi said:

failing to take action to curb the criminal use of his platform.

Yes, obviously.

But if that pertains to reading private messages it is a bad charge.

If I make a phone call to commit a crime, the phone company CEO is not responsible.

Edited August 25 by Leo Gura

[Moutushi]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, obviously.

But if that pertains to reading private messages it is a bad charge.

If I make a phone call to commit a crime, the phone company is not responsible.

It'll be interesting to see how "moderately fair" the judges are in his criminal trial. No pun intended lol

I do have to say though, that I've seen far too many news reports out there over the last several years about criminals and terrorists taking advantage of the lack of moderation on telegram to conduct their affairs. This is messy, but yes I agree that private messages should be where moderation stops. 

 

[What Am I]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, obviously.

But if that pertains to reading private messages it is a bad charge.

If I make a phone call to commit a crime, the phone company CEO is not responsible.

This is especially true considering the encryption protocols used by Telegram. Short of some type of malicious exploit, it shouldn't be possible for a third party to view one user's message to another. I'm sure France and many other governments hate that, but it's the obscurity afforded to us by the technology. Hopefully this arrest isn't a step towards limiting rights to encryption in general, similar to what's happened in China.

Edited August 25 by What Am I

[Moutushi]

22 minutes ago, What Am I said:

This is especially true considering the encryption protocols used by Telegram. Short of some type of malicious exploit, it shouldn't be possible for a third party to view one user's message to another. I'm sure France and many other governments hate that, but it's the obscurity afforded to us by the technology. Hopefully this arrest isn't a step towards limiting rights to encryption in general, similar to what's happened in China.

This could be a new thread, but this does open up room for discussion around the ethics surrounding the conduct of the NSA and other intelligence agencies in how they "spy" on us, in order to stop terrorist acts. I enjoyed watching the video that you shared @Leo Gura about how the CIA operates, curious to know if you feel compelled to share, what degree of "spying" on encrypted and non-encrypted communications is ethically permissible in your opinion ?  

[Leo Gura]

@Moutushi I think NSA wiretapping is wrong. Private communication should be private even if it is terrorism, unless there is a special court order with good evidence.

Edited August 25 by Leo Gura

[Moutushi]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Moutushi I think NSA wiretapping is wrong. Private communication should be private even if it is terrorism, unless there is a special court order with good evidence.

One possible obstacle to that privacy being maintained is what you had shared some time before about the types of people that get recruited into these intelligence agencies, and end up over time making decisions in superior positions at those agencies, that affect the rest of us. Maintenance of privacy of communications between private citizens is unlikely a priority for them obviously. The question on my mind is what are the top values/priorities that are on their mind when they operate? 

Edited August 25 by Moutushi

[What Am I]

15 minutes ago, Moutushi said:

The question on my mind is what are the top values/priorities that are on their mind when they operate?

If the laws restricting privacy that they've attempted to pass over the years are any indication, it's obvious those in high positions would rather we're unable to communicate with each other in a way they're incapable of eavesdropping. Thankfully, the public becomes wise to the attempts every time and they're quickly shut down. But they've been inching it forward for decades, and we may find ourselves frogs in a pot not realizing we're about to reach boiling.

[questionreality]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I retract my statement because Telegram is mostly an encrypted private messaging app. I don't endorse moderation of private messages. If that's what he got arrested for it is wrong.

But Telegram also does public group chats, and those probably need moderation. So it's complicated. I'd like so see more details about what he is charged with.

It's the private messages that they wanted to get access to. Public chats on there do get moderation and get deleted quite frequently: including for terrorism, etc, that was even on the news.

In fact, it's nothing new, in 2016 they asked him the same question regarding of the encryption and how it can help terrorists, and this was his answer: 

 

It's either secure for everyone or not - it can't be secure for everyone but not for terrorists. 

 

 

[questionreality]

6 hours ago, Moutushi said:

Yes, I was glad to see the news of his arrest. More moderate moderation is needed, not less, as so-called freedom of speech fighters ask for

Fools like you don't value what they have, nor appreciate people who stand up for your right to privacy and free speech. 

Poor understanding of history is a big reason, other than the ignorance imo.

What's funny, is that in countries like Russia and China, the governments do exactly what you want  - censor, moderate and prosecute people by having full access to private messages of the messengers. And that's why Durov escaped Russia so he doesn't have to deal with that BS.

You would be the first one crying about this if you were to live in Russia or China.

 

Edited August 25 by questionreality

[Nemra]

@questionreality

Do you think that the French and Russian governments' respect for free speech is the same?

Edited August 25 by Nemra

[questionreality]

27 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@questionreality

Do you think that the French and Russian governments' respect for free speech is the same?

Obviously not 

[questionreality]

For those that don't know, In 2018 Russia started to block Telegram, after Durov refused to give access to encrypted private messages to FSB. (federal security service)

Their reasoning for getting access was exactly the same -it is being used by terrorists, etc. In actuality, they needed it so they could crack down on opposition and liberal leaning people.

The guy could have stayed in Russia, worked with the authorities and been even richer - but he out of principle decided not to.

In the West though, you got fools (or idiots) who call themselves "liberals", who don't understand how good they have it, that are ready to voluntarily give up their rights and freedoms - for which true liberals in countries like Russia fight for.

 

Edited August 25 by questionreality