Fasting.

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Salvijus said:

God cheated me. That asshole.

[Keryo Koffa]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God cheated me. That asshole.

Is God cheating everyone again? Don't worry, I'll beat the shit out of that damn liar! *starts punching myself*

[Salvijus]

I think fasting is beneficial only if you meditate the whole time. 

[Princess Arabia]

Fasting can do wonders for the body depending on the type of fasting. The body needs a break from all that work it does to digest food. On a metabolic level it can be good, but on a Spiritual level, the body couldn't care less about our Spiritual escapades; it's main job is to survive and be of service to the environment. Only the mind cares about all that Spiritual stuff. This is why the body can go through so many physical changes when one awakens or does spiritual work, the nervous system has to be updated to be able to contain all that extra weight. 

[Michael569]

On 06/09/2024 at 4:53 PM, ICURBlessings said:

That being said - all carbs are not equal when going into a more detailed understanding of metabolism. As Fructose has a much more radical impact than sucrose on metabolism. The many culprits of carbs in general are linked more to fructose than sucrose

It might not be as black & white. The highest natural sources of fructose are fruits yet it would probably not make sense to consider fruits unhealthy, even in high amounts. I do agree that concentrated, isolated fructose (e.g. high fructose corn syrup) isn't great and can contribute to health problems. 

On 06/09/2024 at 4:53 PM, ICURBlessings said:

The health benefits of being in Ketosis over long periods is near miraculous. Radical reversal of diabetes is one, for many it is the complete remission of epilepsy and other seizure disorders. Not to mention loosing weight without starvation. The list is actually very long. I can imagine you might want to believe that one can do the same without going into ketosis but with a healthy carb diet - HOWEVER the differences are just incomparable. It is not about the carbs being 'BAD' - it is about the state of Ketosis being biologically speaking 'optimal for general performance'. The NON-Ketosis state has a biological purpose - which is to prepare the body for a period of "lack of resources (food wise)". If you look at bears, without a super-high carb intake they could never survive hibernation.

Words like "miraculous", "reversal" "optimal for general performance" are tricky to defend. 

REVERSAL of diabetes (type 2) can be achieved by a sufficient amount of weight loss so that insulin sensitivity is restored (provided that pancreatic beta cells have not yet been completely destroyed) You can achieve this with any diet as long as the patient loses sufficient weight. Take away the element of weight loss, and the ketogenic diet is not superior to any other diet in that sense. At this stage, the evidence on type 2 diabetes is clear that it is an energy status disease; the body becomes too "fat for its own good" , said in a sort of silly way. Roy Taylor's research has made a great breakthrough on that front. It has nothing to do with ketosis and everything to do with reducing the size of adipose cells. 

Losing weight without starvation is also achievable on most diets as long as they are planned properly, that's not a secret. 

What is "optimal for general performance" exactly? Quackery thrives in vagueness, so let's be clear with exact terms. What is it, in human performance, that can be achieved only with ketosis that can't be achieved otherwise? Be precise if you can. 

If ketosis is a natural state and not the opposite, why are humans naturally pulled towards hunting, foraging, sugar rich and caloric rich foods and basically sourcing food? If not eating was so beneficial and such a pleasure, surely we would have been all more naturally inclined to want to do that more...most of us aren't. 

On 06/09/2024 at 4:53 PM, ICURBlessings said:

Patient comes to him for joints replacement surgery. Patient is overweight and has been for a long time. Doctor suggest to him to go through a trial period were he would change his diet and maintain a state of ketosis - and that at the very least, it will help his operation recovery. The patient decide to go with the diet change. Within 10 days the patients becomes free of arthritic-symptoms. Symptoms that he has been suffering from for many, many years. He says to the doctor, if this freedom from these symptoms persists - I will not need the surgery.

I know this is not a proof - but it is a story among hundreds, and hundreds. 

Its an interesting story for sure and I don't dispute that it happened or didn't. But lack of pain is not equal to arthritis cure. You can temporarily remove symptoms by removing the trigger for example. I also feel there is more to that story. I would be curious what else the patient was doing that the doctor did not mention because it might have contradicted his bias. Maybe they were put on physiotherapy routine. Maybe tinctures or antiinflammaries were used? Was patient put on any medication by this or other practitioner? Did they also get another therapy? 

It is an anecdote and those are always interesting but not enough to give us enough certainty to form public guidelines. 

I had a client with rheumatoid arthritis couple years ago. It was extremely difficult but we did achieve some symptom remission. I wouldn't have considered him cured, but his mobility was greatly improved on a Mediterranean diet, but we also did tons of other things, so it's hard to say. 

On 06/09/2024 at 2:31 PM, ICURBlessings said:

Ketosis has been used successfully to REVERSE Alzheimer.

Oh and I wanted to also respond to this in particular. 

You used the word 'reversed'. In case of Alzhimer's, reverse would mean - regrow dead neurons and restore lost function to the cerebral cortex permanently. Basically, a phenomenon that has never been recorded in medicine.

Do you have a source for this? If this is indeed the case, this would have been all over media and this person would have probably received a Nobel Price for Medicine. 

It might have been temporary improvement in symptoms , that does happen. For example, Alzheimer's patients given certain medication exhibit improved memory and improved spatial orientation. But those effects often wear off quickly. 

When you say reverse, in case of a disease so irreversible as Alzheimer's I can't help but think that it must have been either some funky article by someone who did not understand what reversal means or what you meant was "improved symptoms" which is possible but not permanent. 

On 06/09/2024 at 2:31 PM, ICURBlessings said:

I will only point to the fact that the great majority of nutrition research (probably well over 99%) - was NOT performed with participants in a state of KETOSIS. The latest studies are showing that when the same conditions are applied to participants in a state of Ketosis - the results differ.

How do you know that? Studies in ketogenic diets might have actually done just that. Otherwise, how would they know that participants are indeed in ketosis? I don't know the answer to this question, but do you really have 99% certainty that they didn't measure urinary ketones? Which is really simple and cheap thing to do. 

On 06/09/2024 at 2:31 PM, ICURBlessings said:

Ketosis is being used and studied  with radically positive results to treat a wide range of mental health issues. The body can thrive with health, including mental-health with a very low carb intake. Stating this fact is in no way claiming that you MUST do a Keto diet.

Throwing your argument back at you. If 99% of studies DO NOT achieve ketosis, how do you know it was ketosis that was responsible for the effect? 

What if the effect came down to Hawthorn Effect or Observation Bias? Simply being a part of a study that is designed to "help people with depression" while being surrounded by experts, might be enough for some people to already start feeling better. 

Again...what is the evidence? 

As far as I know, mental health, in general when approached through dietary protocols tends to go up and down. Confidence Intervals are too wide, there is insufficient meta regression, studies aren't sufficiently powered, this is a known issue in mental health research in general. 

On 06/09/2024 at 2:31 PM, ICURBlessings said:

I would never say that I am a student of Ayurveda - Reread my post, as stated that was 40 years ago!

My bad. I misread that statement

Also upon rereading my earlier comment, I realised it might have come off as a bit inflammatory, some of the bits, so for that I apologise. I'll try to keep it balanced 

 

Edited September 7 by Michael569

[ICURBlessings]

16 hours ago, Michael569 said:

It might not be as black & white....

Looking at the thinking behind your reply it is obvious that your view of the metabolic state of Ketosis (Ketogenic state) is curtailed in someway. But, I think you might have a certain curiosity that may lead you - at one point - beyond the limited understanding that you are raising up against what I am attempting to communicate.

You said "Words like "miraculous", "reversal" "optimal for general performance" are tricky to defend." - These words were not chosen as tools for defense or attack - they are the opposites - they lack details because of the role and function they serve- and not because of a role or a function they lack. Basically when I make a statement here in a post in such a forum - I am attempting to communicate "a lot" with as few words as possible. I expect the readers to read in between the lines, and if interested to explore on his own. I am fully aware of the shortcomings, imperfections, and propensity to failure of communication that is thereby established. But for me to provide all the details, data, and sources to backup every little piece of my statements is unrealistic - and may belong in a book, or a course, or a video series - but not here.

What I state is usually a type of culmination with a lot of research behind, and usually with a substantial degree of experience as well. It is given here in the form of a 'conclusion'.

To help understand my background, you should know that I have spent 21 years of my life as an lacto-ovo vegetarian, a period were most of my friends and acquaintances were either vegans or vegetarians - and what we call today "plant-base" proponents. That was before the internet, and I read the books, articles, magazines, and whatever I could get my hands on. It has been about 25 years now that I have shifted away from that diet. I am sharing this here to communicate to you that I am well verse in the thinking, understandings and beliefs that are upheld by the Plant-base ideology. As it use to be an ideology that I had invested myself into.

One may wonder why did I shift away from this ideology - and I don't have a short answer other than saying, that it is through a diversity of scientific interests, more specifically, genetics, biology, nutrition, anthropology/paleontology, among a few others that are less directly related to our subject here.

The world of nutrition/medicine - within the sphere of science - is extremely difficult to distill facts from. This is counter-intuitive, as we usually assume that ‘science’ is a clear-cut body of knowledge. When looking at a very large body of articles representing scientific studies and research – there is a continuous flow of inconsistencies and a continuous lack of perfect-congruity. This is a known fact among professional scientists, but not among the general scientific public.

The art of reading and analyzing scientific articles to extract the true significance of the results - is time consuming, even for the professional - as every detail must be considered. The reason I can claim that in over 99% of studies pertaining to the field of nutrition – the participants are not in Ketosis is obvious to someone who is familiar to a certain degree – including its history - with this field of research. First of all the great, great majority of research on nutrition do not aim to evaluate the metabolic factor which ketosis would represent – as in almost all practical application of nutrition - those that eventually benefit from the research - are NOT normally in a state of ketosis.

When looking at the relatively tiny body of research that may pertain to ketosis – we find mostly animal research – and in the case of studies applied to human that are actually in ketosis (where ketones are effectively measured – this mean not via the breath or urine, but via blood-ketones) to be so scarce that I am pretty confident it will amount to much LESS than 1%.

I must add that even many nutritionists – including scientist have an incomplete understanding of ketosis. A common blunder is to throw the Keto-diet into the same bowl as the Low-Carb diet. In some scientific papers you will see words such as “keto like diet” instead of “low-carb diet”. But when you read into the parameters defining what the authors call “keto like diet” it clearly is NOT a “Keto diet”. From the top of my head, I remember a case where it was something like around 250gr/day of carbs being considered “keto-like” – which shows a clear misapprehension of the Keto diet.

Of course this “under 1%” number will not last long – as proper research genuinely related to the Keto diet has been drastically increasing, and is a phenomenon that is bound to continue to grow exponentially.

The biggest problem with distilling data from research and studies in the field of medicine and nutrition – results from the impact of the ‘special interest’ involved via the financial side of research. And a single nutrition study can demand multiple millions of dollars. In medicine we have the pharmaceutical industry controlling a vast body of research. And in nutrition we have a diversity of ‘special interest bodies’ including massive organization in the food industry, among others.

If you look at the case of the famous Ancel Keys – author of the ‘Seven Countries Study’ among others – you see not only HOW the entire mainstream field of Nutrition, extending globally - can be fundamentally influenced by a very small number of people using completely corrupted data - BUT also HOW a perfectly good scientist can slowly become ‘unscientific’ in the application of his work. Scientists are human, and some will do what they have to do to maintain their financial income, their reputation, and other valued benefits from their career.

There are many sources that brings forth different evidences of the effect of Ketosis/Ketone on patient suffering from Alzheimer. Without spending more time than I want to on this reply – I have on the forefront of my mind the extensive research of Stephen Cunnane. I invite you to look into it through your own research if you are interested.

 

 

 

 

 

You asked “What is "optimal for general performance" exactly? ”

Although this concept covers a very wide range of performance – we can focus on the biology level – since much of human behaviors (physical and mental) are fundamentally dependent, and are affected by the biology of the body.

This comes down to the effect of the Ketogenic state and to the effects of the state where ketones are so low that it is considered NON-Ketogenic. Insulin is directly involved as a key hormone in the mechanism shifting the metabolic state out-of ketosis. As a note we are born in a state of ketosis.

The reason I consider this ‘Ketosis versus not-Ketosis paradigm’ important is because it is an extension of one of the most fundamental principal governing all life on Earth. Physical-Life to exist there must be Physical-Energy. Energy represented by the necessary resources required for a species to survive. And that it be for a micro-organism, a plant, or a mammal - FUNDAMENTALLY these resources fluctuates from lack to abundance.

Humans stands on the shoulders of the evolution of life on this planet, that begin as a mechanism that was designed to answer/adapt to this very fundamental condition of living/thriving in the midst of fluctuating resources. If such resources - since the beginning of life on Earth - were instead continuous, the metabolic processes would exclude the function of the state that we can define today as Not-Ketogenic. Because the fundamental function of the Non-ketogenic state is to store energy – so to survive a period of lack of resources. If resources were continuous, there would no need to biologically store energy.

When studying the evidences unearthed in archaeology, and as part of paleontology, we can see the negative changes to human health that agriculture has brought on. And also we have historical data on the health of aborigines from around the world before their diet was changed due to colonization - that shows a radical shift in long term health. This includes the Inuit who use to be in Ketosis pretty much year around.

If this interest you, I invite you to listen to the lectures of Dr Michael Eades.

 

 

 

 

There is so much more to say and explain about all of this. If you are truly interested you can learn new information by doing your own research.

 

I will mention that there are studies that are controverting the old concept that the brain and nerves cells (neurons) do not naturally regenerate themselves.

You also said “...it would probably not make sense to consider fruits unhealthy, even in high amounts.”

I think fruits in high amount can be unhealthy over time. How bears stores very quickly a large amount of fat is by eating fruits. I was told that bears even develop insulin resistance every year during that period of time when they need to store energy. It is interesting how insulin resistance is part of their survival mechanism.

There so many aspects interrelated to metabolism when comparing the Ketogenic state to the Non-Ketogenic state. The fact that the basic function of the Non-Ketogenic state is to store energy, does affect many biological parameters, such as appetite, satiety, and compulsive eating – all biologically implemented to drive energy storage. These mechanism are directly involved in how human can eat to manage their emotions. Looking into "food addiction" will bring up countless proponents that claim that food can not be considered addictive - because food is not only not toxic but necessary for life itself. However the practitioners that are involved in helping those that have issue with compulsive eating, clearly points to a pattern that is exactly like any other type of addiction, such as to alcohol.

What help me cut through the controversy on food addiction was that I had previously studied alcohol addiction -  and I could recognize the biological and psychological parallels. There is a field of research that is exploring the correlation between dysfunctional behaviors and diet. The tapestry that is evolving is very coherent. Because eating is tightly bound to humans emotional life, the hope of solving global health problems via nutrition is limited. 

 

 

[Michael569]

@ICURBlessings thanks for taking the time to reply. I skimmed through it (I haven't watched the videos yet). I probably disagree with more than I agree with with. There is a lot in your response that warrants deeper scrutiny but it would take hours and hours to continue the conversation so I'll just politely submit my resignation at this point and leave the conversational unfinished. (aware that it was me who started it ) 

Thanks for the debate and your time writing all the responses! 

Edited September 9 by Michael569

[ICURBlessings]

17 hours ago, Michael569 said:

@ICURBlessings thanks for taking the time to reply. I skimmed through it (I haven't watched the videos yet). I probably disagree with more than I agree with with. There is a lot in your response that warrants deeper scrutiny but it would take hours and hours to continue the conversation so I'll just politely submit my resignation at this point and leave the conversational unfinished. (aware that it was me who started it ) 

Thanks for the debate and your time writing all the responses! 

I graciously Thank you as well 

[shubhamsharma]

On 7/9/2024 at 2:20 PM, Leo Gura said:

God cheated me. That asshole.

Ram dass said when he fasted his pupils got bigger.