Controversial Post: The Manipulated Man

[r0ckyreed]

So, I have heard of this book by Esther Vila called The Manipulated Man. I have never read it, but I saw a small post about it on Facebook that really seemed intriguing and made me question my views around feminism and the patriarchy. It helped me realize that as long as I desire women and sex, I will never be free. There was a lot of truth to what Esther Vila argues in that women manipulate men into making men feel obligated to protect and provide for them, where men are the breadwinners and women are the beneficiaries. Of course, I am not denying that men also manipulate women, perhaps even to far more harmful degrees. But I just wanted to share how this made me feel more comfortable and empowered in being single, virgin, and childfree.

I have been feeling a lot of guilt for being a virgin still, but I do not much anymore. I realize that it is better for me to be free from sexual desire than to be consumed by it. Maybe me being a virgin still is a gift. I imagined I would become sexually addicted if I ever did have sex. In my last relationship, we were more intimate, and I realized that I lost myself in that relationship. Intimacy can be a wonderful thing but can be dangerous if I am operating from a place of sexual desire/neediness.

Leo's story of him missing a chance of getting laid by splitting the bill got me thinking about this issue more in the degrees to which women manipulate men. Women argue for equal rights, but in reality, they inhabit a lot of double standards. If women still expect men to make the first move and to pay for everything, how can feminism be possible? How can a man fully respect a woman to be independent if she is still holding onto conservative social norms and gender expectations? You see this double standard and contradiction? I am trying to be as nuanced as I can, and please do not misinterpret this as red pill, manosphere bullshit. I am trying to articulate what I have noticed as a man, and the apparent double standards and games that women play, and this book seems to be insightful on what I have noticed.

EDIT: I think they need to do a Ken movie based off of the pressures men have to face. It is moronic to me that men's issues are swept under the rug because we are the "privileged" gender. For instance, look at body dysmorphia. That is so common amongst men, but it is more hidden than the depictions of women's bodies and ideal beauty. The media portrays men's bodies to be 6 pack and muscular to such unrealistic standards that it encourages such an unrealistic ideal for men. Anyways, I am going off on a tangent.

Anyone else familiar with Esther Vila's work? What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

Edited August 24 by r0ckyreed

[Lyubov]

I’m going to read this book. But I’m going to take it with a pinch of salt. This is the second time I’m seeing this book mentioned so there is some lesson I believe in it that I need in order to strengthen my character: I’m choosing to constantly people please my ex. I heard there is an element of loyalty us men have that is easily exploited: 

[Lyubov]

Yes it is true that feminism and all these dating double standards can’t really coexist. It’s because there’s a lack of integrity in this belief system. You either believe you’re to be provided and cared for or you believe you need to do this yourself. This is why I’m against feminism. In my belief system I do not believe the work force needs women in it and I do not believe they should be funneled through society the same way men are in this capitalist system we have built. But I also have no clue what the solution is. I think so higher order system beyond capitalism that makes room for the uniqueness both men and women have, where there is room for everyone to be themselves but not putting men and women against each other in the work force. 

[r0ckyreed]

I have been reading now into chapter 4 and the book is pretty insightful, but it is full of a lot of generalizations about women. For instance, the other makes a ridiculous claim that women aren’t interested in intelligence, mathematics, science, philosophy, etc. 

Maybe at the general level this is true, but there are always exceptions. Some feminists would argue that more women would be into these activities if there were more equal access. But some people state that even in the most liberal countries, women are still less involved in those activities.

Also, the book is one sided and does not really discuss the pressures that women face such as the pressures for marriage, partnership, and children. Women are pressured to be wives and mothers because that is what they are taught is what makes a woman valuable.

The book is still very insightful.

Edited August 24 by r0ckyreed

[Tenebroso]

I have read the book in full, I was introduced to it young. It kills your idealism about romance and love, which can be difficult to accept. I believe the author Esther Vilar received death threats for writing it. How would society look if every young man received this information at 18, I don't think it would be pretty. I think when men and women are exposed to each other's true nature as they increasingly are today, gender relations become very strained. 

[Sugarcoat]

How could you even end sexual desire unless you are in some bad mental state or have some condition with a symptom of it being no libido? This means every person pretty much isn’t free. I don’t see how desire has to go against freedom per se. You could enjoy the raw energy of desire and let it fuel you in everyday life. If you are a virgin for reasons you chose rather than having no choice it shouldn’t feel nonfreeing to have sexual desire because you stand by your own choice to be a virgin. But if you feel like you’re a virgin because of lack of options or a upbringing which conditioned you to shame sex before marriage or something and you feel forced to have that view then yes walking around with desire for something you feel like you can’t have will limit your “freedom”.
 

also I don’t think women wanting men to for example be breadwinner and pay for dates while at the same time being feminist is necessarily hypocritical. It depends on how their feminism is. Sometimes feminism is focused on problems such as rape, unequal pay at work, sexual harassment etc. it would be hypocritical if a woman is against a man wanting a house wife while at the same time wanting a man to be breadwinner and pay for date but I don’t think it’s common at all to hold that view. 

Edited August 24 by Sugarcoat

[Keryo Koffa]

Ah, someone turned all my observations into a whole book and channeled it into the past, lovely!

Yeah, gender dynamics are a bunch of social mumbo-jumbo and limit both sides as individuals.

One side wastes their life chasing, the other side wastes their life luring, basic Amatonormativity.

Can we move on to Aliens yet?

[eos_nyxia]

I read her book 10+ years ago.

On 2024-08-23 at 6:58 PM, r0ckyreed said:

So, I have heard of this book by Esther Vila called The Manipulated Man. I have never read it, but I saw a small post about it on Facebook that really seemed intriguing and made me question my views around feminism and the patriarchy. It helped me realize that as long as I desire women and sex, I will never be free.

I am aware that this can be a phenomenally hard thing to not do, but how can you be free if you make war with a fundamental aspect of your human expression?

Desire is more than about sex, romance, women (or your gender of choice). "Desire" is also tied to the will to live, to express yourself, to be creative, to have ambition, aspiration, and vision. The libido/ life drive (yes, even in the classic psychoanalytic sense) cannot so easily be divided and isolated in one aspect without affecting the other aspects. Not that it isn't possible, but you really have to be prepared to fully shut the door on the aspects you intend to minimize and/ or eliminate. 

You almost never see the required degree of commitment necessary to properly shut the door, especially outside of monastic spaces, for those of us who have to live in "the real world". It's basically a traditional ascetic path; I'm sure you've seen it before. You have to be willing to crush and erase yourself and your desires to serve some higher purpose (and not simply the avoidance of one undesired outcome or another), to not spare yourself nor make any exceptions, and to hide absolutely nothing from yourself.
Otherwise, you get groups of like-minded people banding together over their shared bitterness, unresolved trauma, and unfulfilled desires. Like MGTOW, which is made up of men who appear to be doing the exact opposite of "going their own way".

 

[eos_nyxia]

Quote

Leo's story of him missing a chance of getting laid by splitting the bill got me thinking about this issue more in the degrees to which women manipulate men. Women argue for equal rights, but in reality, they inhabit a lot of double standards. If women still expect men to make the first move and to pay for everything, how can feminism be possible? How can a man fully respect a woman to be independent if she is still holding onto conservative social norms and gender expectations? You see this double standard and contradiction? I am trying to be as nuanced as I can, and please do not misinterpret this as red pill, manosphere bullshit. I am trying to articulate what I have noticed as a man, and the apparent double standards and games that women play, and this book seems to be insightful on what I have noticed.

Many of these dichotomies are pretty arbitrary and are the result of socially generated tensions particular to a certain time period and culture. For instance: the number of people across the world in "non-Western" cultures where women are both "highly traditional" and financially independent (or are capable of being so) while potentially working a demanding career. This is a common enough dynamic, especially amongst East/ South/ West Asian immigrants in Western countries.   

Although to be fair, exactly what is "equal" about pregnancy, giving birth, or having to be the one who terminates the pregnancy, while you as a man can just blow-and-go if you want to?

Quote

EDIT: I think they need to do a Ken movie based off of the pressures men have to face. It is moronic to me that men's issues are swept under the rug because we are the "privileged" gender. For instance, look at body dysmorphia. That is so common amongst men, but it is more hidden than the depictions of women's bodies and ideal beauty. The media portrays men's bodies to be 6 pack and muscular to such unrealistic standards that it encourages such an unrealistic ideal for men. Anyways, I am going off on a tangent.

1) Was anyone actually ever stopping you guys, other than maybe a handful of hyper-radical people?   2) Isn't this typically more of a dude obsession with other dudes?

[Princess Arabia]

I don't think this issue is as black and white as this. You're looking at it more on the physical level and it's constructs. There are different types of personalities and characters when it comes to both genders and people can be very manipulative and vindictive. Also, most people don't really understand themselves and how the brain works in respect to masculine/feminine/left side/right side operations and how the genders operate based on these specifics. When I say manipulative and vindictive I'm referring to how the genders use these traits to try to get what they want out of life for their own personal gain. For example, a woman getting pregnant just to keep a man because she knows that's a way to get financial support from him and that the law will most likely be on her side. Or women getting purposely divorced so they can take half, or a man thinking he has the right to cheat because he's the breadwinner, and so on. People use these societal constructs to maneuver their way through life.

On the level of masculine and feminine energy, though, both are made up of different components and are expressed in different ways in order for balance to be maintained. We, as a society, are the ones that apply day-to-day activities to provide for these expressions. There's nothing existential about a man opening the door for a lady or him paying for the entire meal or paying all the bills. These are contents that were made up by humans for expressions of the masculine/feminine energies when it comes to this topic; and these are just examples of which there are plenty.

What I'm saying is, all you've pretty much mentioned are contents. Those can easily be replaced with other contents for the same argument; but these are 21century issues, and what we've been exposed to. Back in certain times masculine and feminine energies were being expressed in different ways with no problem like these ones we're experiencing now with the gender wars.

I think, the energies still needs to be balanced in some sort of way in order for harmony to be present between the genders. How one feels within also plays a role because some females feel masculine and some men feel feminine inside. What you are describing to me is a problem of the feminine male who cannot or in incapable of connecting to his masculine side and doesn't feel he should cater to the feminine because inside he's torn between the two and doesn't see how nurturing a woman's feminine is either beneficial to him or it's in conflict with his dominant feature which is feeling more feminine than masculine. Strong masculine men won't have an issue in this regard because they've already felt how it feels to do just that and it has enhanced them more and allowed for that masculine energy to thrive so this issue is not within them. What you're describing is more of a feminine male's issue; and there's nothing wrong with that, it just needs to be recognized as so. A There's a characteristic that belongs to the feminine energy that thrives when it's being protected and cared for and a characteristic of the masculine that thrives when it gives of itself to show "dominion over" and a feeling of worthiness. 

 

 

 

 

[Lyubov]

I've picked this book back up. It's somewhat myopic and definitely not what I would call an integrative or holistic perspective. The author has an "us vs them" mentality which to me is a perspective that is not how I choose to consciously live. I can see it being controversial for it's time. This perspective is raw and cuts out the fairytale aspect to love and relationships. Traditional values still persists today and so do perspectives and ideals around them. I so far agree that men and women are different and most women have a survival strategy and ambition that is about creating a family. I'll write my final thoughts when I finish it.