Contemplating Time Part 2: Time Is Not An Illusion

[ICURBlessings]

34 minutes ago, Ero said:

Time is in fact not ‘fundamental’ even per modern day physics - due to Relativity, your speed determines the extent of your time dilation. Photons do not experience time. The singularity at the center of a Black Hole is at “the end of time”. The space-time manifold is the basis on which this rests.

Another less-cosmic in scale realisation is related to entropy production. It is what determines the “clock” for chemical and biological organisms, and it is again something that can be tuned.

Right ON! That is BASIC Knowledge - Albert Einstein first published his Special Theory of Relativity in 1905. It is about 120 years old information!?!!!

When I read in 2024 a statement such as Time is fundamental to consciousness - I see the cultural effect of what is called ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM.

Edited August 23 by ICURBlessings

[r0ckyreed]

What if Einstein’s Relativity is wrong? What if we are giving too much authority to a dead white man? 

You can deny time exists all you want. But it still affects you. Without time, there is no memory or thought. If time didn’t exist, then there could be no movement, no change, no existence because time is these things.

You say time is an illusion, but like I said in my original post: what form of time are you arguing is an illusion? Sociological time? Biological? Physical? Psychological?

Time is the flow of change and is a force of life as real as gravity. Why don’t you say gravity is also an illusion? Isn’t that a double standard? If you say gravity is an illusion, then you are denying direct experience. 

Edited August 23 by r0ckyreed

[Ero]

@r0ckyreed You are still operating with a pre-rational model of the world, which is of course okay. 

Nobody is 'denying time' for the sake of their survival/ character continuity. We still use clocks and calendars.

But the deeper understanding of it to be an emergent phenomenon/illusory is what allows for you to, for example, have internet and share your thoughts with us. By your same logic, denying its deeper nature by no means changes how it affects you. You don't have to know the GR field equations to understand that the faster you move, the slower times moves for you. We have predicted the existence of gravitational waves, lensing, and black holes precisely due to this understanding. What have you predicted? 

[Keryo Koffa]

37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

time=movement. Without movement there is no time. Time is nothing, it is just an idea to measure movement.

f(  ²) = "movement=change. Without change there is no movement. Movement is nothing, it is just an idea to measure change.

[Ero]

19 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

Right ON! That is BASIC Knowledge - Albert Einstein first published his Special Theory of Relativity in 1905. It is about 120 years old information!?!!!

When I read in 2024 a statement such as Time is fundamental to consciousness - I see the cultural effect of what is called ANTI-INTELLECTUALISM.

That unfortunately is true. I think the proliferation of social media has lead to eco-chambers that erode the epistemic trust in science and all our accumulated knowledge to date.

Whilst I in no means claim science to be the end-all-be-all, we nonetheless would be foolish to erase and reject its 2000 year old history.

I envision its recontextalization by addressing the underlying metaphysical and ontological assumptions that in fact prevent its growth. Ideas, such as non-determinism, holism, emergence, non-completeness would only help complexify our understanding (Tier 1-> Tier 2).

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Keryo Koffa said:

f(  ²) = "movement=change. Without change there is no movement. Movement is nothing, it is just an idea to measure change.

Movement and change are synonyms 

[Keryo Koffa]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Movement and change are synonyms 

Can't time also be a synonym for movement?

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Can't time also be a synonym for movement?

I'd say that time is It is the relation between one movement and another. 

[Keryo Koffa]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'd say that time is It is the relation between one movement and another. 

Guess I'm playing devil's advocate at this point but isn't it all a morphing unified objectless Non-Dual mess anyway?

[ICURBlessings]

5 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Can't time also be a synonym for movement?

If you want the deep answer to that question - watch this video:

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Guess I'm playing devil's advocate at this point but isn't it all a morphing unified objectless Non-Dual mess anyway?

Apparently there are changing objects and duality, then relationship between them , then time. You could say that time is apparent, but even that, it is. Duality exist, imo the only non dual thing is the substance, that is always the same, but can be the same and many, same doesn't mean one, means same. You and me are the same substance, but two different forms, where is the point to denying that ?

[ICURBlessings]

12 minutes ago, Ero said:

That unfortunately is true. I think the proliferation of social media has lead to eco-chambers that erode the epistemic trust in science and all our accumulated knowledge to date.

Whilst I in no means claim science to be the end-all-be-all, we nonetheless would be foolish to erase and reject its 2000 year old history.

I envision its recontextalization by addressing the underlying metaphysical and ontological assumptions that in fact prevent its growth. Ideas, such as non-determinism, holism, emergence, non-completeness would only help complexify our understanding (Tier 1-> Tier 2).

YES Ero!

The dismissal of science by those that are scientifically uneducated and inexperienced is a very serious handicap. It is like dismissing the alphabet under the claim that Poetry is evil; or dismissing the value of music under the claim that only snobs like opera - it is an incredible phenomenon that 99.9% of those that are under its spell have no clue of the impediment they are under and how it is affecting not only their mind but society.

Of course science is a field affected by human weaknesses, and there is corruption that the average (non-cutting-edge) scientists are prone to - and like it or not - there is an aspect of science that has become a religion. As long as one is aware of that 'mechanism', one can benefit from science without falling pray to dogma.

The true source of the dogma that is affecting part of the scientific community is the ideology known as Materialism and/or Physicalism. Which is a serious impediment to scientific advancement, as you mentioned.

I keep my eye on the fields of science that fall on the cutting-edge of the limits of Physicalism - limits that have been challenged by Quantum Mechanics for over a century. Recently there is a new scientific movement focusing on Consciousness as an object of scientific inquiry- which has already challenged Physicalism to the point of its almost complete collapse.

Science has a huge body of data from parapsychology research, Near Death Experience Research, Evidence of what we call 'reincarnation' research, lots of old research on hypnosis, even research on the placebo effect - ALL challenging Physicalism/Materialism dogma!

[ICURBlessings]

58 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

What if Einstein’s Relativity is wrong? What if we are giving too much authority to a dead white man? 

Such a statement can only make sense when there is a fundamental lack of knowledge of the most basic principles of science. 

"Human (White man or other) Authority" is what science was among other things, created to overcome as a mean to establish facts! 

 

...if Einstein’s Relativity is wrong - GPS Navigation would not work... other practical applications are mentioned via the following link:

https://www.livescience.com/58245-theory-of-relativity-in-real-life.html

 

[ICURBlessings]

1 hour ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Can't time also be a synonym for movement?

I would say that first of all: Time on its own is more a a convenience and not a fact. The fact is that Time is a 'dimension' enmeshed with the 3 dimensions that we are all familiar with and that we call 'space'. These 4 dimension are known as the Spacetime continuum - which is a characteristic of the physical Universe.

Before the discovery of Relativity, we use to think that the Universe fills space and is carried by Time. Both Space and Time were conceived as absolutes. The Theory of Relativity - that is its name and it is more than just a theory - shows how both Time and Space are not only a unified characteristic of the Universe but also NOT absolutes. Spacetime is literally changed by gravity. It is a very fascinating phenomenon of our Universe worth exploring just for the fun of it. It is literally 'trippy'. If you want to increase the experience - study 'Black Holes' - they are a phenomenon that is super mind-blowing.

What you call movement is certainly enmeshed with Spacetime but it is also enmeshed with gravity. And if you think Time is illusive, try understanding gravity ... it is way more illusive...

[ICURBlessings]

3 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

What if Einstein’s Relativity is wrong? ...

What if Einstein’s Relativity is wrong? ...also - this statement is like saying about America "...what if Christopher Columbus was wrong about the existence of America?" ... the Theory of Relativity was DISCOVERED by a few scientists, although most of the credits went to Einstein - Once discovered anyone can verify its validity - which has been done in thousands, and millions of ways since... Every-time someone uses a GPS successfully , he is in someway validating the Theory of Relativity.

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

What if Einstein’s Relativity is wrong? ...also - this statement is like saying about America "...what if Christopher Columbus was wrong about the existence of America?" ... the Theory of Relativity was DISCOVERED by a few scientists, although most of the credits went to Einstein - Once discovered anyone can verify its validity - which has been done in thousands, and millions of ways since... Every-time someone uses a GPS successfully , he is in someway validating the Theory of Relativity.

Not to mention, if your theory replaces Newton's one, it has to be pretty good. 😆 

[ICURBlessings]

5 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Not to mention, if your theory replaces Newton's one, it has to be pretty good. 😆 

Good point!

[Keryo Koffa]

13 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

Every-time someone uses a GPS

You guys believe in GPS? Next, you'll tell me that earth has a moon!

I'll be done watching the video soon, it's kinda long yk

[Keryo Koffa]

3 hours ago, ICURBlessings said:

If you want the deep answer to that question - watch this video:

@ICURBlessings

I watched it. Many details somewhat elude me
I'm still trying to visualize the longest time between events being a straight line (16:04)
And maybe the real Anti-Intellectual was the Einstein along the way (13:50) 😁

I like 10:11 - 10:32 (Gravity is Unconditional Love)
"Gravity doesn't care what you are made of, how much mass you have, or whatever.
Every object is pushed around in the same way by the force of gravity.
Other forces aren't like that. The electrical force or the nuclear forces care
a lot about what you are made of but gravity does not keep that in mind."

I gotta get deeper into the Equation though, it's funny how the Formula is smarter than us!

@ICURBlessings Thanks, I'd reply, but the ḏ̷̍a̴͉̅i̵̯͘l̷̛͓ÿ̴̹́ ̸̣͋p̴̗͌o̴̔͜s̵̪̀ṫ̸ͅi̷͈̚n̵̹͗g̶͔̈ ̶̡̛l̸̛ͅi̸̱͠m̶͙͛í̶̖t̸̥̓s̵̲͊ are keeping me in shackć̴͇͙̦͚̆́k̸͖̍͑̽ļ̷̫̱͈̰͂e̷̱̦̰͚̐s̴̱̭̬̘͆̂̊̕͝ͅ!̴͚͌  `̴̪̜̯̮́͗͑͝`̷̡̤̖̝͍͙͈͇̓̊̃́͠`̸̧̤̫̠͎͎̈́`̷̟̗͔̜̲̘͑̔`̸̡͔̆͊͒̄͋͊͜`̷̢̧̗̜͍̜̊͗̎̀̆̏̏͠`̴̡̞̻̦̬̥̣̀̈̿̌̃̿̉`̵̛̟͍͖͍̥̝̗̃̆́̓͜`̷̨̬̤̝̫̒͜ͅ`̶̢̛̠̲̖̲͐̉̓͐͝͝`̸̧̢̱̮̤͈͕͉̰̓̓̂̓́͘͝͝`̷̳̘͛̄̿`̵̡̧̡̦͕͌͘`̵̛̜̯̬̤̰̜̐̈́̌̃͆̕ͅ`̶̞̀͒̈́̚͝`̸̨͖̮̞̩̆̽`̴̨̨̛͎͎̤͎̿͂̈́͆̇

Edited August 23 by Keryo Koffa

[ICURBlessings]

16 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

@ICURBlessings

I watched it. Many details somewhat elude me
I'm still trying to visualize the longest time between events being a straight line (16:04)
And maybe the real Anti-Intellectual was the Einstein along the way (13:50) 😁

I like 10:11 - 10:32 (Gravity is Unconditional Love)
"Gravity doesn't care what you are made of, how much mass you have, or whatever.
Every object is pushed around in the same way by the force of gravity.
Other forces aren't like that. The electrical force or the nuclear forces care
a lot about what you are made of but gravity does not keep that in mind."

I gotta get deeper into the Equation though, it's funny how the Formula is smarter than us!

Wow congrats for watching the whole thing. I picked this video quickly and when I came back to watch it I realized that Sean Carroll went into way more details than the usual. I asked my self if I should remove it from this thread... but I could not find a replacement...

I don't share Sean Carroll's philosophy but he is a good teacher of scientific knowledge ... I mean excellent teacher!

Well Good for you man! I am impress!