Two tier policing debunked

[Consept]

 

[Jacob Morres]

+1

[Epikur]

Well the grooming gangs tell a different picture.

 

 

[Alex M]

 

[Epikur]

9 minutes ago, Alex M said:

 

A lot of mental gymnastics going on here.

He gets a lot of heat in his comments for his mental acrobatics.

[Consept]

@Epikur Can you directly dispute the points in the video i posted? For example the claim by those putting forward the two-tier policing idea are saying that white right wing rioters are being treated differently, but when you do a direct comparison with the riots that happened in 2011 this is provably not the case, are you disputing that or are you deflecting to another subject?

[Epikur]

13 hours ago, Consept said:

@Epikur Can you directly dispute the points in the video i posted? For example the claim by those putting forward the two-tier policing idea are saying that white right wing rioters are being treated differently, but when you do a direct comparison with the riots that happened in 2011 this is provably not the case, are you disputing that or are you deflecting to another subject?

Even if what he says is true that does not mean the points in my vid from the ex police guy is wrong. Why don't you check it out without obfuscating and comment on it? Don't forget to comment on the grooming gangs too.

I will check out the vid you posted and will try to answer.

Edited August 20 by Epikur

[Buck Edwards]

There's two tier policing in the UK and almost every British person is aware. There's no refuting it.

 

 

Edited August 20 by Buck Edwards

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Epikur said:

Even if what he says is true that does not mean the points in my vid from the ex police guy is wrong. Why don't you check it out without obfuscating and comment on it? Don't forget to comment on the grooming gangs too.

I will check out the vid you posted and will try to answer.

I did watch your video but he doesnt actually mention grooming gangs, hes talking about knife crime in London committed by black youths as an explanation for a the higher rate in stop and search for black youths, which is 9x more than white youths. He says that police were more cautious to stop and search because it might appear racist because the stop and search rate is so high. The thing is this isnt evidence of a two tier system because white youths were stopped much less in the first place, you can make some argument about the rate of crime warranting the stops which could be true but it doesnt confirm black people getting favourable treatment, it just shows police and the community dont know how to handle it. Black youths still get longer sentences for equivalent crimes and treated generally different to their white counterparts in the justice system. At best its an example of the different challenges for different communities but youd have to outline the link to a two tier system that is alleged. 

Whats interesting is that the main determiners for violent crime are things like poverty and violence in the home, Glasgow actually had more knife crime than london and this was overwhelmingly amongst white youths a this is the population in Glasgow. Now theyve got knife crime down to basically 0 youth deaths. You might say how, they did it through a conscious effort of treating it as a public health issue essentially looking at the root causes of crime. They used tools like early prevention, education, providing training, changing legislation, all these things contributed to vastly changing the situation. 

If you notice the police officer only talked of stop and search, which is also a tool but in isolation doesnt get to the root of it. When you consider that in England funding for youth services has been cut by 74% in comparison to 13 years ago and then also in that time period deaths from knife crime have doubled, you start to see what the cause really is. Of course correlation doesnt equal causation however this is quite startling information. Many youth clubs and programs have shut down under the conservatives and it would be pretty safe to say they would have had an effect on youth violence for the positive. 

But yeah ill be happy to hear your evidence that disputes what ive said or disproves the treatment of the rioters in 2011 vs the 2024 rioters. 

2 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

There's two tier policing in the UK and almost every British person is aware. There's no refuting it.

Its funny how you guys tend to post videos from gb news and sky news Australia opinion pieces, both heavily right wing media outlets owned by right wing people. GB news is currently having legal problems because they cant classify most their shows as news because its not factual enough. 

Regarding the actual video you posted, he doesnt actually make any case for two-tier policing, he literally says everyone knows it, which is actually a nothing statement. I do agree with him where he says underlying causes should be addressed though.  

But if youre going with the stance that it does exist im happy to hear your argument that disputes the different treatment between the 2011 rioters and the 2024. Im using this as its the most direct comparison. 

[Buck Edwards]

20 minutes ago, Consept said:

Its funny how you guys tend to post videos from gb news and sky news Australia opinion pieces, both heavily right wing media outlets owned by right wing people. GB news is currently having legal problems because they cant classify most their shows as news because its not factual enough. 

If your only argument is going to be that they're right wing and so they must automatically be racist or wrong, then that's a weak argument. 

[Consept]

46 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

If your only argument is going to be that they're right wing and so they must automatically be racist or wrong, then that's a weak argument. 

That definitely wasn't my only argument, that was an observation. I refuted the points that you raised and more in the earlier text. What you did there is called a strawman which is literally take something, in this case was just an observation and not at all the crux of my argument and then attacked that position saying its my only argument even though your only argument literally was 'everyone knows it'. If you look at what I wrote I even agreed with Murray on one point. I'm jist saying that he didn't actually provide any clear argument for me to even dispute. 

Back to the original question can you argue for the treatment by police for the 2011 riots being significantly different from these 2024 riots? If you can this would help prove the two tier system that you claim as its 2 very similar incidents with the only difference being the social group they belong to. Its OK to say you can't btw 

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

That definitely wasn't my only argument, that was an observation. I refuted the points that you raised and more in the earlier text. What you did there is called a strawman which is literally take something, in this case was just an observation and not at all the crux of my argument and then attacked that position saying its my only argument even though your only argument literally was 'everyone knows it'. If you look at what I wrote I even agreed with Murray on one point. I'm jist saying that he didn't actually provide any clear argument for me to even dispute. 

Back to the original question can you argue for the treatment by police for the 2011 riots being significantly different from these 2024 riots? If you can this would help prove the two tier system that you claim as its 2 very similar incidents with the only difference being the social group they belong to. Its OK to say you can't btw 

No I don't agree with the video. Just because something is similar it doesn't make it valid. Nobody should be indicted over a Facebook post, it's called free speech for a reason. Unless the person belongs to a group that actually perpetrates violence including him. The British laws are anti free speech and two tier policing stands especially during riots. This does not mean that white people get treated badly. It's just the right wing that gets mercilessly targeted all the time. If you wanna the situation of free speech in the UK you simply gotta take a look at the way they treat Tommy Robinson, the man had to go through hell. That already shows what the situation is. He is not even far right. He gets jailed over silly things. Now it seems he has incited the riots. In reality he does nothing. 

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

No I don't agree with the video. Just because something is similar it doesn't make it valid. Nobody should be indicted over a Facebook post, it's called free speech for a reason. Unless the person belongs to a group that actually perpetrates violence including him. The British laws are anti free speech and two tier policing stands especially during riots. This does not mean that white people get treated badly. It's just the right wing that gets mercilessly targeted all the time. If you wanna the situation of free speech in the UK you simply gotta take a look at the way they treat Tommy Robinson, the man had to go through hell. That already shows what the situation is. He is not even far right. He gets jailed over silly things. Now it seems he has incited the riots. In reality he does nothing. 

I don't really get your argument, have you got any evidence or even a coherent argument that proves two- tier policing? 

I can agree with you that potentially they're going a bit far with the Facebook stuff but in reality it's at least the same if not worse on the extreme Muslim side and has been since 9/11 and even more so after 7/7, so the right is not being specifically targeted. 

Even if we say Tommy Robinson was treated unfairly, which I don't believe as he has stoked more hatred than anyone, but let's grant you it, it's still just anecdotal, it's one example, I could give you 1000 examples of black and Asian people being treated unfairly but it becomes redundant unless its put into context. 

Why is something similar not valid? Like if 2 different people commit the same crime wouldnt it be valid to look at both cases to see if ones treated fairly or not?

[Epikur]

4 hours ago, Consept said:

I did watch your video but he doesnt actually mention grooming gangs, hes talking about knife crime in London committed by black youths as an explanation for a the higher rate in stop and search for black youths, which is 9x more than white youths. He says that police were more cautious to stop and search because it might appear racist because the stop and search rate is so high. The thing is this isnt evidence of a two tier system because white youths were stopped much less in the first place, you can make some argument about the rate of crime warranting the stops which could be true but it doesnt confirm black people getting favourable treatment, it just shows police and the community dont know how to handle it. Black youths still get longer sentences for equivalent crimes and treated generally different to their white counterparts in the justice system. At best its an example of the different challenges for different communities but youd have to outline the link to a two tier system that is alleged. 

Whats interesting is that the main determiners for violent crime are things like poverty and violence in the home, Glasgow actually had more knife crime than london and this was overwhelmingly amongst white youths a this is the population in Glasgow. Now theyve got knife crime down to basically 0 youth deaths. You might say how, they did it through a conscious effort of treating it as a public health issue essentially looking at the root causes of crime. They used tools like early prevention, education, providing training, changing legislation, all these things contributed to vastly changing the situation. 

If you notice the police officer only talked of stop and search, which is also a tool but in isolation doesnt get to the root of it. When you consider that in England funding for youth services has been cut by 74% in comparison to 13 years ago and then also in that time period deaths from knife crime have doubled, you start to see what the cause really is. Of course correlation doesnt equal causation however this is quite startling information. Many youth clubs and programs have shut down under the conservatives and it would be pretty safe to say they would have had an effect on youth violence for the positive. 

But yeah ill be happy to hear your evidence that disputes what ive said or disproves the treatment of the rioters in 2011 vs the 2024 rioters. 

Its funny how you guys tend to post videos from gb news and sky news Australia opinion pieces, both heavily right wing media outlets owned by right wing people. GB news is currently having legal problems because they cant classify most their shows as news because its not factual enough. 

Regarding the actual video you posted, he doesnt actually make any case for two-tier policing, he literally says everyone knows it, which is actually a nothing statement. I do agree with him where he says underlying causes should be addressed though.  

But if youre going with the stance that it does exist im happy to hear your argument that disputes the different treatment between the 2011 rioters and the 2024. Im using this as its the most direct comparison. 

I watched the video it was trash.

You are comparing the 2011 riots with those in 2024. I am not deeply informed about this, but it seems that the 2011 riots were less morally justified.

This is already an important point. As is the case across Europe, the elites are turning against the opinions of citizens who want to restrict immigration. This is why the British voted for Brexit. Instead of accepting this, the elites persecuted those who voiced their opinions.

The riots in 2011 had no direct legitimacy. Of course, you could argue they had legitimacy because this particular group was always treated poorly. That is a matter of opinion.

I find it telling that you did not address the grooming gangs. You dodged the issue and said it wasn’t in the video. So what? I know that myself. There is a reason I mentioned it. You probably know it too, but you pretend to be ignorant.

The grooming gangs are the crux of the discussion. That’s why you want to avoid the topic.

 

Edited August 20 by Epikur

[Consept]

9 minutes ago, Epikur said:

You are comparing the 2011 riots with those in 2024. I am not deeply informed about this, but it seems that the 2011 riots were less morally justified.

The moral justification is irrelevant, the question was are rioters being treated differently in terms of the justice system, thats the whole premise of two-tier policing. Also the 2024 riots were not justified as they were based on a lie in the first instance, as well immigration is a nuanced issue, to say its morally justified to attack mosques because of immigration is kinda ridiculous. It may be more justifiable if they were rioting in downing street or something. 

12 minutes ago, Epikur said:

The riots in 2011 had no direct legitimacy. Of course, you could argue they had legitimacy because this particular group was always treated poorly. That is a matter of opinion.

It is a matter of opnion and theres also plenty of facts to show that black people are treated unfairly in the justice system. But youre right is a matter of opinion and it doesnt relate to what we're talking about which is far right being treated more harshly. 

 

14 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I find it telling that you did not address the grooming gangs. You dodged the issue and said it wasn’t in the video. So what? I know that myself. There is a reason I mentioned it. You probably know it too, but you pretend to be ignorant.

You posted a video and didnt want me to address what was in the video??

Ive covered grooming gangs extensively in another thread. But again this is a deflection, im looking for evidence suggesting a 2 tier policing system. 

[Epikur]

3 minutes ago, Consept said:

The moral justification is irrelevant, the question was are rioters being treated differently in terms of the justice system, thats the whole premise of two-tier policing. Also the 2024 riots were not justified as they were based on a lie in the first instance, as well immigration is a nuanced issue, to say its morally justified to attack mosques because of immigration is kinda ridiculous. It may be more justifiable if they were rioting in downing street or something. 

It is a matter of opnion and theres also plenty of facts to show that black people are treated unfairly in the justice system. But youre right is a matter of opinion and it doesnt relate to what we're talking about which is far right being treated more harshly. 

 

You posted a video and didnt want me to address what was in the video??

Ive covered grooming gangs extensively in another thread. But again this is a deflection, im looking for evidence suggesting a 2 tier policing system. 

If you had a minimum level of integrity, you would have linked your thread about grooming gangs and briefly commented on it. Two-tier policing is not limited to the riots, even if you want to sell it that way. It also concerns what happened before.

The grooming gangs are the focal point of the story. The riots are irrelevant. It’s about criminals not being prosecuted for fear of being labeled racist. You know this too and want to distract from it.

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Epikur said:

If you had a minimum level of integrity, you would have linked your thread about grooming gangs and briefly commented on it. Two-tier policing is not limited to the riots, even if you want to sell it that way. It also concerns what happened before.

The grooming gangs are the focal point of the story. The riots are irrelevant. It’s about criminals not being prosecuted for fear of being labeled racist. You know this too and want to distract from it.

Heres the link to the thread 

The current complaint is about the riots, the claim is that the far right are treated differently when it comes to protests and riots. If its not about that do you concede that there isn't really a difference then? 

Regarding grooming gangs here's the thing you would have to prove that Pakistani muslim grooming gangs are prosecuted differently then other white grooming gangs as a rule because thats your claim, do you have statistics or any evidence you can show to prove this? Why are you so sure this is the case? 

Further than that, there is history of black and Asian people being treated unfairly compared to their white counterparts, that has been happening for years, do you care about that or only when it happens to far right white people?

[Epikur]

28 minutes ago, Consept said:

Heres the link to the thread 

The current complaint is about the riots, the claim is that the far right are treated differently when it comes to protests and riots. If its not about that do you concede that there isn't really a difference then? 

Regarding grooming gangs here's the thing you would have to prove that Pakistani muslim grooming gangs are prosecuted differently then other white grooming gangs as a rule because thats your claim, do you have statistics or any evidence you can show to prove this? Why are you so sure this is the case? 

Further than that, there is history of black and Asian people being treated unfairly compared to their white counterparts, that has been happening for years, do you care about that or only when it happens to far right white people?

I think they are treated differently. As I said before it is a distraction from the main thing.  

Regarding the grooming gangs you are joking right? Were you living on the moon or what? The authorities knew the grooming gangs but didn't do anything about it because they were afraid to be called racists. Just google it. First there were no white grooming gangs. Second if there were any police will not say we did not act on it because it would us look racist. Come on man. 

Tommy Robinson made it public that is why he is the biggest enemy of the government elites.

[Consept]

53 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I think they are treated differently. As I said before it is a distraction from the main thing

Do you have evidence for this or is it a feeling?

53 minutes ago, Epikur said:

Regarding the grooming gangs you are joking right? Were you living on the moon or what? The authorities knew the grooming gangs but didn't do anything about it because they were afraid to be called racists. Just google it. First there were no white grooming gangs. Second if there were any police will not say we did not act on it because it would us look racist. Come on man. 

Do you really think there are no pedophile rings with white people? I'm aware of the grooming gangs scandal, the police fucked up but that happens a lot. Look at Jimmy Saville and the tons of white men who the police didn't investigate properly through the years. So to be sure I'm not saying that grooming gangs don't exist, I'm saying that a fuck up from the police is not indicative of a two tier system. It would be like if someone black committed a crime and pointed to all the white men who weren't convicted to say he's being treated unfairly. 

The thing is you don't actually know how many white people slide through and don't get convicted. Even though you don't know this you're quick to form a strong opinion and argue without any facts. 

Tommy Robinson is loved by the Zionist elites that pay for his salary. You ever find it weird how he promotes Israel especially since he started with neo-nazi organisations?

[Buck Edwards]

32 minutes ago, Consept said:

Tommy Robinson is loved by the Zionist elites that pay for his salary. You ever find it weird how he promotes Israel especially since he started with neo-nazi organisations?

Tommy Robinson is not a neo nazi. He is a hero. He will go down as the greatest hero in Britain's history. He constantly faces threat to his life. He is still facing a warrant. He has the biggest balls on planet earth. And if he gets jailed or arrested or worse assassinated, Britain will go up in flames. The British citizens have had enough of the debauchery and mayhem and Tommy Robinson has been the whistle blower for the longest time. Whether you like it or not, the British public knows better, that's why the riots happened, they have had enough.