What do you guys think about consensual incest?

[Scholar]

I want to get a basic overview of what the community thinks about consensual incest. Specifically what I mean here is consensual incest between two adults or between two similarly aged minors. (referred to as consanguinamory)

I want you to consider questions such as:

 

Do you think consanguinamory can happen? Meaning, do you believe consent between family members can even occur? If not, why not?

 

Do you think consanguinamory is immoral? If so, why?

Do you think consanguinamory is disgusting? If so, why do you think you feel that way?

Do you think consanguinamory is inherently dysfunctional or unhealthy? If so, why?

Do you think, in regards to any of these questions, that it is not always the case, but most often the case? If so, what lead you to believe that?

 

What do you think of individuals who participate in consanguinamory? Do you view them as dysfunctional, perverted or lacking options? Do you feel anger or hatred towards them? Do you pity them?

Could you imagine that two individuals might engage in consanguinamory for the same reasons any normal person might, like wanting to spend their life with someone the person they love? If not, why not?

Do you think most cases of consanguinamory will always be unhealthy, dysfunctional and so forth? If so, why?

 

How prevalent do you think consanguinamory is? How prevalent do you think sexual interactions between consenting family members are? How often do you think those come with significant harm, even if they are of consensual nature? Explain why you evaluate it the way you do.

 

Do you think inbreeding between close relatives has a high chance of birth defects? If so, how high would you estimate such risks to be? Do you believe this risk to be inherent to inbreeding?

 

Do you think consanguinamory should be illegal? If so, why?

Do you think consanguinamory should be socially stigmatized? If so, why?

Do you think consanguinamory should be be discouraged? If so, why?

Do you think inbreeding should be illegal? If so, why?

Do you think inbreeding should be socially stigmatized? If so, why?

 

How do you look at harm prevention in general? Do you seek to approach it through law, stigmatization or education? 

Edited August 14 by Scholar

[Consept]

Overall I feel disgust toward it, there is something biological that makes us feel disgust toward it so that we dont reproduce with close family members, obviously there is increased risk to any offspring, so nature does seem to be against it. Porn seems to be for it though. 

In terms of immorality, i think theres a strong element of grooming in these situations thats if the family members have grown up around each other. So like lets say you have an uncle who is 15 years older than his niece and knew her all her life and then gets into a sexual relationship with her when shes 20 and hes 35, i believe this to be immoral because trust has been built up and hes taken advantage of this position. Its kinda similar to if there was a trusted family friend that knew the kid all its life and then started a relationship when they became an adult. Most situations like this are not really acceptable for good reasons, teacher - student, priest - churchgoer etc. 

If theyre 2 adults of the same age and knew each other all their lives, this would be less immoral assuming there isnt any manipulation, but it would still feel disgusting and wrong. I say its unhealthy because it would indicate some kind of dysfunction between the siblings. 

Its mostly the case, i think the only exception is if you didnt know your sibling at all for your whole life and then as an adult you get with them, there at least isnt the moral issue, however i would say its still dysfunctional as your attraction is actually a malformed plutonic, sibling attraction. 

Birth defects are probably lower than we think but much higher than the general population. If people want to inbreed the can but i dont think society will really be that accepting of it, but generally i dont think a lot of people would want to. I think it should be illegal just because the risk of grooming and manipulation as i think thats a lot more likely to be involved than other relationships. 

[Scholar]

46 minutes ago, Consept said:

In terms of immorality, i think theres a strong element of grooming in these situations thats if the family members have grown up around each other. So like lets say you have an uncle who is 15 years older than his niece and knew her all her life and then gets into a sexual relationship with her when shes 20 and hes 35, i believe this to be immoral because trust has been built up and hes taken advantage of this position. Its kinda similar to if there was a trusted family friend that knew the kid all its life and then started a relationship when they became an adult. Most situations like this are not really acceptable for good reasons, teacher - student, priest - churchgoer etc. 

Why do you think an adult cannot make a choice once they are an adult? For example, if a niece grows up, why can she not be in a relationship with her uncle if she desires? Given that grooming did not occur, would you be against that?

 

46 minutes ago, Consept said:

Overall I feel disgust toward it, there is something biological that makes us feel disgust toward it so that we dont reproduce with close family members, obviously there is increased risk to any offspring, so nature does seem to be against it. Porn seems to be for it though. 

Do you think this disgust is inherent? For example, many people would argue they feel disgusted towards homosexuality for the same reason, as nature seems to be against it. Yet, I think today many people no longer feel as disgusted by it as they did in the past. Do you think it is possible that your views around incest influence how much disgust you feel towards it?

 

46 minutes ago, Consept said:

If theyre 2 adults of the same age and knew each other all their lives, this would be less immoral assuming there isnt any manipulation, but it would still feel disgusting and wrong. I say its unhealthy because it would indicate some kind of dysfunction between the siblings. 

Why do you think it indicates a dysfunction between the siblings? And given your answer, where do you think you got that idea in the first place?

Do you think it is possible that siblings might be less likely to abuse and manipulate each other than the average couple? If not, why not?

 

46 minutes ago, Consept said:

Its mostly the case, i think the only exception is if you didnt know your sibling at all for your whole life and then as an adult you get with them, there at least isnt the moral issue, however i would say its still dysfunctional as your attraction is actually a malformed plutonic, sibling attraction. 

What do you mean by malformed platonic, sibling attraction? And why would that make it dysfunctional?

 

46 minutes ago, Consept said:

Birth defects are probably lower than we think but much higher than the general population. If people want to inbreed the can but i dont think society will really be that accepting of it, but generally i dont think a lot of people would want to. I think it should be illegal just because the risk of grooming and manipulation as i think thats a lot more likely to be involved than other relationships. 

So you believe consenting adults should be imprisoned to prevent grooming and manipulation? Why do you believe this is justified? How will you differentiate victims from perpetrators? Given it is illegal, you would punish both parties, so presumably you would be willing to imprison a potential grooming or manipulation victim if there is no evidence of such a thing occuring?

In what other cases do you apply this standard, of imprisoning consenting adults because in other cases there might be grooming or manipulation occuring?

 

Also, how high does the manipulation and grooming risk need to be for you to imprison innocent, consenting adults? Do you think we should apply the same standards to 25 year olds dating 18 year olds, given the risks of grooming and manipulation? Should have age gap laws in general, if it turns out it would reduce grooming and manipulation, and put people in prison for it? 

Edited August 14 by Scholar

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Why do you think an adult cannot make a choice once they are an adult? For example, if a niece grows up, why can she not be in a relationship with her uncle if she desires? Given that grooming did not occur, would you be against that?

I'm saying it's basically inherently grooming if you knew a child from when they were a kid and get with them when they're an adult. Potentially if you weren't in their life and met them when they were an adult that would be different. Still weird though.

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Do you think this disgust is inherent? For example, many people would argue they feel disgusted towards homosexuality for the same reason, as nature seems to be against it. Yet, I think today many people no longer feel as disgusted by it as they did in the past. Do you think it is possible that your views around incest influence how much disgust you feel towards it?

No i don't agree, I think disgust in incest is a way it manifests for us to avoid it or at least that's how we experience it. Some animals do this as well, lemurs for example use pheromones to choose who is the least related to them to mate with. Homosexuality is different in that we're taught to be disgusted by it so I feel that's more of a past social thing which as you say has even changed from 30 years ago. Incest has been around for a long time and I feel that if we were really driven to so it you'd see a lot more cases. 

I actually know a few cousins that are married so I'm not overly disgusted by it but also those relationships are more cultural and not based at least initially on love. 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Why do you think it indicates a dysfunction between the siblings? And given your answer, where do you think you got that idea in the first place?

It's dysfunctional in that it would be very unusual to go from a sibling relationship to a sexual relationship, this by definition wouldn't be 'normal' probably in all of history. Therefore it would indicate some kind of dysfunction, like if someone fucked goats I'd think it's dysfunctional because it's so far from the norm. 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Do you think it is possible that siblings might be less likely to abuse and manipulate each other than the average couple? If not, why not?

No idea but could be possible

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

What do you mean by malformed platonic, sibling attraction? And why would that make it dysfunctional?

It's actually a condition between long lost relatives where they fall in love later in life. Its something to do with the attraction as relatives being mistaken for sexual love. So for example if you never met you mum and then you meet her when you're 25 and she's 45 and you're both really attracted to each other it's kind of like malformed love you would've had for your mother. This does actually happen. 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

So you believe consenting adults should be imprisoned to prevent grooming and manipulation? Why do you believe this is justified? How will you differentiate victims from perpetrators? Given it is illegal, you would punish both parties, so presumably you would be willing to imprison a potential grooming or manipulation victim if there is no evidence of such a thing occuring?

In what other cases do you apply this standard, of imprisoning consenting adults because in other cases there might be grooming or manipulation occuring?

 

Also, how high does the manipulation and grooming risk need to be for you to imprison innocent, consenting adults? Do you think we should apply the same standards to 25 year olds dating 18 year olds, given the risks of grooming and manipulation? Should have age gap laws in general, if it turns out it would reduce grooming and manipulation, and put people in prison for it? 

I don't know what the punishment should be or even if there should be a punishment but I guess it would be similar to grooming cases without incest. I guess there would be more social pressure not to do it from your family. It's rare you'd see a healthy family engage in it, I mean I might be wrong but I've only ever seen unhealthy situations with this occurring. 

Age gap relationships I don't see a problem with in general. I think the issue is more if you knew them when they were young got them to like you and then conumated when they were older, I'm not really sure how you could police it but that for me would be immoral. If it was fine you'd have a strange situation of adults hanging around kids and basically being in relationships and then getting with them as soon as they cross the legal age, I think that behaviour would be very damaging for kids. 

Also another factor is whether the older person is in a position  of power ie teacher, church leader etc 

What are your views on it you think consenting adults should be able have sex with family members?

[Anton Chigurh]

Totally awesome 

[Scholar]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I have more questions.

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

I'm saying it's basically inherently grooming if you knew a child from when they were a kid and get with them when they're an adult. Potentially if you weren't in their life and met them when they were an adult that would be different. Still weird though.

But why is it grooming? If they are an adult, and they consent to it, in what way would that constitute grooming, especially if they intiate it?

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

No i don't agree, I think disgust in incest is a way it manifests for us to avoid it or at least that's how we experience it. Some animals do this as well, lemurs for example use pheromones to choose who is the least related to them to mate with. Homosexuality is different in that we're taught to be disgusted by it so I feel that's more of a past social thing which as you say has even changed from 30 years ago. Incest has been around for a long time and I feel that if we were really driven to so it you'd see a lot more cases. 

I actually know a few cousins that are married so I'm not overly disgusted by it but also those relationships are more cultural and not based at least initially on love. 

But the same arguments you are making now can be made about homosexuality. Animals avoid it as well, and it seems humans inherently have a disgust reaction towards same-sex activity so as to maximize procreation. I certainly have overcome any disgust I feel towards incest, why do you believe that there is no component of nurture in this regard?

Homosexuality is not something humans are driven towards, it is an abnormality in human sexual behavior, why would incest be any different?

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

It's dysfunctional in that it would be very unusual to go from a sibling relationship to a sexual relationship, this by definition wouldn't be 'normal' probably in all of history. Therefore it would indicate some kind of dysfunction, like if someone fucked goats I'd think it's dysfunctional because it's so far from the norm. 

Why does something being unusual or unnormal make it dysfunctional in your eyes? How does that indicate dysfunction in any way? Homosexuality is not the norm, yet we would not classify it as a dysfunction. What makes the differentiation here?

Many things in human sexuality are rare and yet you would probably not describe them as dysfunctional, or claim their abnormality was a indication of dysfunction?

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

No idea but could be possible

But if you have no idea, why do you have such a strong stance on incest being so muh more risky in regards to grooming and manipulation? What if the opposite were true?

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

It's actually a condition between long lost relatives where they fall in love later in life. Its something to do with the attraction as relatives being mistaken for sexual love. So for example if you never met you mum and then you meet her when you're 25 and she's 45 and you're both really attracted to each other it's kind of like malformed love you would've had for your mother. This does actually happen. 

I have to correct you here. There is a phenomena described as "Genetic Sexual Attraction", and it relates to blood relatives who have not grown up with each other being more likely to have high sexual attraction when they meet as adults as a result of their genetic similarities. 

Why do you believe this is a malformed love? Where did you get this idea from? And why do you think it is in any shape or form dysfunctional or bad?

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

I don't know what the punishment should be or even if there should be a punishment but I guess it would be similar to grooming cases without incest. I guess there would be more social pressure not to do it from your family. It's rare you'd see a healthy family engage in it, I mean I might be wrong but I've only ever seen unhealthy situations with this occurring. 

I understood you to say that you would be in favor of basically punishing anyone for being in incestuous relationships independent if grooming occured or not, under the guise of wanting to prevent grooming. Is that not the case?

Why do you feel comfortable pressuring two individuals who feel love for each other to not engage in it, given that there is no evidence of dysfunction occuring? Do you think there might be reasons why you only see unhealthy examples of this, given that society socially and legally persecutes individuals who engage in these types of relationships?

Why do you believe it is apt to condemn or disallow individuals from engaging in mutual love, rather than educating them about things like consent and the risks of sexual relationships in general, such that risks are minimized?

Do you believe it is important to make a distinction between vertical and horizontal consanguinamorous relationships, in regards to risk assessments and how we treat individuals who want to be in such relationships? Vertical means relationships between parent-child, uncle-niece etc, while horizontal means between siblings and cousins.

 

1 hour ago, Consept said:

Age gap relationships I don't see a problem with in general. I think the issue is more if you knew them when they were young got them to like you and then conumated when they were older, I'm not really sure how you could police it but that for me would be immoral. If it was fine you'd have a strange situation of adults hanging around kids and basically being in relationships and then getting with them as soon as they cross the legal age, I think that behaviour would be very damaging for kids. 

So do you believe people who went to the same class together since early age, and eventually started dating in highschool, should not date each other because they knew each other when they were young? What if a boy and a girl grew up in the same apartment-floor, living right next to eah other, and their parents were very close such that the two households were basially like one. They basially were together since infancy and could always enter each others homes. If eventually, as the girl and boy grew older, they developed a romantic relationship, do you actually believe it was more likely to be dysfunctional or unhealthy? Would you not believe the opposite to be true, that they might actually share a far deeper connection and therefore be much less likely to be dysfunctional in their relationship? Why is it not a beautiful thing that these two souls, who grew up together and shared most of their life with each other, could find love for one another? Why is it so inappropriate to you, to share love with someone who you were close with when you were young? Why is that immoral to you? (I want to know what you think about this in regards to horizontal relationships, before we go into the more complicated vertical ones, so basically siblings, cousins, best friends who grew up really close, who are roughly the same age)

Edited August 14 by Scholar

[Consept]

@Scholar

You're asking a lot, im obviously not as invested as you are. But I'm curious on your stance, can you go through what that is and why you feel like that? I will try and get back to your questions