What are the pros and cons of immigration? Is it always beneficial?

[Consept]

4 hours ago, Thewritersunion said:

@Consept most high skilled jobs barely pay enough to live, just sayin. 

Which highly skilled jobs barely pay enough to live?

[Jacob Morres]

 

On 8/14/2024 at 8:20 AM, integral said:

in my local park it is filled with Muslims all newly immigrated within the past 10 years, and all of them have children 

lol

Edited August 18 by Jacob Morres

[Schizophonia]

None, I don't want to be replaced by non-white populations.
Also, if I were in the place of the governments of developing countries, I would prevent as much as possible my qualified population from being ROBBED by Western countries, that seems like common sense to me.

[EdgeGod900]

@Bobby_2021

7 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

So you didn't consider international students as immigrants the whole time?

MS is a pathway to citizenship. 

That's the only reason they are doing it. Not working and leaving back to home country. I thought this was obvious.

Wtf are you talking about lol. Please improve reading comprehension, and also ask, "who im saying this to?"

 

10 hours ago, Consept said:

 When they move to the country they work, either doing highly skilled jobs or minimum wage jobs that natives don't want to do. 

This is a generic talking point and Canada is an exception lol. Lots of teenage and young adult Canadians struggle to find even minwage jobs.

A Decade ago I see teenagers working most minwage jobs, but now its all people who are interntional students

Edited August 18 by EdgeGod900

[Bobby_2021]

@EdgeGod900 "You" is said in a general sense. It means the person to which it applies to. 

If it doesn't apply to you, then it wasn't written with you in mind.

[ryandesreu]

 

 

 

[Bobby_2021]

8 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

 

 

 

The Elites want more immigration. 

It's the working class that doesn't want it tbh.

[Consept]

25 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The Elites want more immigration. 

It's the working class that doesn't want it tbh.

The elites want to be in power and not blamed for taking all the cookies. They are basically scape goating immigrants so that the working class blame them for their issues that are being caused by the elites. A few years ago everyone was blaming 'benefit scroungers' for claiming benefits, which basically poor people claiming benefits. 

If you look at Conservative media in the UK, it always has a scapegoat to blame issues of the working and middle classes on. In the cartoon its rupert murdoch who used to own the sun, the times and sky news in the uk and fox in the US amongst other media outlets. Most of the people complaining about immigrants consume this media, so he's basically convincing them of what their problem is meanwhile amassing wealth and power and no one's looking at the elites for not paying their fair share of tax, which they don't. 

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

They are basically scape goating immigrants

I still don't think the elites do the actual blaming though. 

The backlash against immigration is organically sprouting, bottom up, not top down. Even the elites have gotten surprised by all the riots and protests against immigration. It's the average Joe that's freaking out. The Elites want to calm them down, else their economy would collapse.

[Alex M]

 

[ryandesreu]

@Bobby_2021 I would consider Donald Trump's rhetoric to be scapegoating migrants. There are many different  examples of this if you look back in history. 

But I agree that it comes from bottom up also.

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I still don't think the elites do the actual blaming though. 

The backlash against immigration is organically sprouting, bottom up, not top down. Even the elites have gotten surprised by all the riots and protests against immigration. It's the average Joe that's freaking out. The Elites want to calm them down, else their economy would collapse.

It's the oldest trick in the book to scapegoat immigrants, it's easy for the elite and politicians to do because if you're looking at the immigrants you're not looking at them. 

What I will say is true is that there is a xenophobic and racist sentiment that natives of a country will have but this is stoked by the elites because they know that sentiment exists. 

The elite own the media that the working class read. Rupert Murdoch has literally been known as a 'king maker' in the UK because he will choose which candidate to promote and they will usually win. So it's not an accident what his media publishes and why they publish it. Working class is 100% influenced by the elites 

[ICURBlessings]

'Blame' is a phenomenon with roots in a layer of 'guilt' that is individually experienced but collectively shared and reinforced.

Blame is a PROJECTION of fundamental guilt. It is a way of pushing guilt 'outside of oneself' under the beleif that as long as guilt is falling on someone else it is not on me.

This strategy motivated by the natural need to get rid of guilt is ultimately INNEFECTIVE.

To blame the so called 'elite population' is fundamentally the same behavior as blaming the immigrant population.

[Consept]

11 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

'Blame' is a phenomenon with roots in a layer of 'guilt' that is individually experienced but collectively shared and reinforced.

Blame is a PROJECTION of fundamental guilt. It is a way of pushing guilt 'outside of oneself' under the beleif that as long as guilt is falling on someone else it is not on me.

This strategy motivated by the natural need to get rid of guilt is ultimately INNEFECTIVE.

To blame the so called 'elite population' is fundamentally the same behavior as blaming the immigrant population.

Its not blaming the elite population, its blaming specific people who are provably able and do move the needle on topics like immigration through their power and influence. This isnt to blame them for immigration itself but there is justified blame for them stoking up these feelings in certain groups, you can see this in the rhetoric that the groups use as its identical to the media theyve consumed. This is how propaganda works. Its not the same as blaming the immigrant population because these are things that actually happened and that people like Rupert Murdoch are directly responsible for. 

A great example is the recent riots where a terrible thing happened but then riots occured because of the influence of certain people who claimed the killer was something he wasnt, that happened in real time. So i think youre making a false equivalency with your statement.

[questionreality]

On 8/18/2024 at 2:30 AM, integral said:

So immigration is a side note and has no real importance in the big picture of why large economic movements happen. Is this The General point? 

 

On 8/18/2024 at 4:53 AM, Thought Art said:

Actually, this is a popular and contentious issues in Canada right now. Immigrants, international student and a housing crisis. People including myself don’t really understand what is happening.

We already have a housing crisis.. so if the population increases beyond our infrastructures carrying capacity it seems to me many challenges could occur. The population isn’t just immigrants but international students. 

We have an infrastructure issue. Population is growing faster than we can build houses. The population growth, as I understand it is driven by immigrants. There is tent cities everywhere especially my home city. 

Whatever is happening, the cost of living has gone up it appears to me. People are struggling. 
 

Hmm, I would need to do more research. 
 

I think, we do need to look at the pros and cons of immigration in Canada. Don’t let someone, Leo or anyone shame you out of looking at every detail and considering it. But, use feedback to create a more accurate understanding. 
 

Questioning if immigration has downsides isn’t always self biased… what sort of thinking is that. 
 

Leo can be disappointed this is on his forum, but also Canadians are struggling and confused as to why. Sometimes people need feedback and to have tough conversations. Knowing how complex politics is.. you shouldn’t even be surprised people are having these questions Leo.

If you have the solution to the increased costs of living let us know…. 

The problem is that this forum already for quite some time now has become an echo chamber for left wing ideology + group think and a large part of this was Leo's contribution. Lately he changed his tone a bit, but it's a bit too late.

A place like this instead should promote balanced perspectives, looking at all the pros, cons, and the person who calls himself the most conscious person in the world for sure should not take sides, and offer balanced perspectives instead.

Leo's response to this was not surprising for those who are aware of what I wrote above 

[ryandesreu]

1 hour ago, questionreality said:

 

The problem is that this forum already for quite some time now has become an echo chamber for left wing ideology + group think and a large part of this was Leo's contribution. Lately he changed his tone a bit, but it's a bit too late.

A place like this instead should promote balanced perspectives, looking at all the pros, cons, and the person who calls himself the most conscious person in the world for sure should not take sides, and offer balanced perspectives instead.

Leo's response to this was not surprising for those who are aware of what I wrote above 

This forum can occasionally look like an echo chamber but I don't see it as one. There are many different perspectives voiced here including Trumpers, and threads like "Trump is going to win the election." Maybe I am missing what you are seeing so I will keep your points in mind in the future. Thank you. 

[integral]

@Thought Art

Summary

Housing Development in Kitchener, Ontario:
- Planned to build four condo towers with a rooftop sports field.
- Project would add over 500 residential units to an area with tight housing supply.
- Project approved in 2020; the first tower expected to be ready by 2024.
- Only one tower was started, and it wasn’t finished.
- Over 200 housing developments went insolvent last year alone, nearly 50% higher than the 10-year average.
- Real estate-related insolvencies have been the highest for the past year.
  
Challenges Facing Housing Developments:
- Developers usually sell 70% of units before construction to secure bank loans.
- Banks are hesitant to lend if the 70% threshold isn’t met.
- Developers are stuck if construction costs rise unexpectedly after securing loans.
- Pandemic led to a surge in demand and prices, pushing costs up by over 50% between 2020 and 2023.
- Materials like concrete and structural steel saw price increases of 55% and 53%, respectively.
- Labor shortages caused delays and wage increases of almost 10%.
- Development fees and taxes also rose significantly, adding millions in costs.

Financial Strain on Developers:
- Development fees increased by 51% in five years.
- Interest rates on loans have risen, making repayment difficult as loans grow larger.
- Developers face a perfect storm of rising costs: materials, labor, fees, taxes, and interest.

Impact on Homebuyers and Developers:
- Failed projects leave buyers without homes and deposits at risk.
- Developers struggle to recover costs when they’ve sold units at pre-pandemic prices.
- New units are often priced 30-40% higher than original units, making them hard to sell.
- New condo sales in the Greater Toronto Area down 57% from the previous year, 72% below the 10-year average.

Long-Term Implications:
- Rising costs and market conditions make it difficult to build new housing.
- Developers may pull out of projects altogether if they can’t sell units at profitable prices.
- The solution to the housing crisis isn’t as simple as just building more supply.

[ICURBlessings]

What are the pros and cons of immigration? Is it always beneficial?

This is a BIG question with a lot of possible answers.

Immigrants are an important catalyst for the economy of a Nation, an increase in population usually stimulates the economy.

Immigrant can add color to a culture.

There is a long list of advantages from immigration but also immigrants can bring destructive components of their culture.

But the realities that I witnessed in both the US and Canada is:

A huge sector of employment exist that natives will not participate to a substantial degree - farm-work, construction, general labor jobs, cooking, etc... AND thereby produce seriously problematic conditions within their Nation - that only immigrants can resolve.

This issue seem worst in the US than Canada. Native of the US are even less motivated to fill these jobs than Canadians do. In Canada I have been told by relative who live there, of businesses (Restaurants and Hotels) that had to completely and permanently shut down because they could not find workers.

In the US, a friend of my wife had to wait 8 months to have a hot water tank replaced because of a lack of plumbers. They lived 8 months without hot water.

This situation also have driven construction wages super high, while the work quality is going down because of employing completely unqualified labor-force.

In those conditions I see immigration not only beneficial but NECESSARY to maintain a higher quality of life for a Nation.

[Consept]

4 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

A huge sector of employment exist that natives will not participate to a substantial degree - farm-work, construction, general labor jobs, cooking, etc... AND thereby produce seriously problematic conditions within their Nation - that only immigrants can resolve.

This is an interesting observation. I wonder if you questioned those that are dead against immigration, would you rather work a farm or low level manual labour job or have immigration, what would they choose? 

Because really that would be a way to make immigration not as necessary. Its a mutually exclusive situation, if you don't have anyone to work these jobs you have to immigration. 

[ICURBlessings]

1 hour ago, Consept said:

This is an interesting observation. I wonder if you questioned those that are dead against immigration, would you rather work a farm or low level manual labour job or have immigration, what would they choose? 

Because really that would be a way to make immigration not as necessary. Its a mutually exclusive situation, if you don't have anyone to work these jobs you have to immigration. 

here above I stated facts from personal experience in regard to labor issue both in the US and Canada. I could add to this that in my area at least 50% if not far more of retail stores such as grocery stores, have been in shortage of worker for the past several years. And not just entry level jobs, management position as well. But in those it is less evident as they simply fill these higher positions from unqualified but willing individuals.

When Trump was the President, at one point the word went out that Immigration Officers would be flooding an area looking for illegal immigrants (those without a work permit/green card). That week I saw in the news a huge construction project were over 90% of the workers were suddenly not showing up. These were all working without a green card. They got scared and did not show up to work. They entire project was frozen to a stand still!

That is one tiny example among thousands... Those that are against immigrants - including illegal immigrants - have no idea of the BENEFITS their Nation derive from them.