What are the pros and cons of immigration? Is it always beneficial?

[LSD-Rumi]

@integral Lol, immigrants are actually leaving Canada. Canada became so expensive it is not worth it for them any more. They say they work so much for so little.

Canada's economy is seriously flawed. It is always so easy to use immigrants as an excuse. Watch some YT videos about analyzing Canadian Economy. It is much better than watching right wingers barking about immigrants.

Edited August 17 by LSD-Rumi

[TheEnigma]

On 8/14/2024 at 9:20 AM, integral said:

As a Canadian I've experienced this first hand in the past 10 years housing costs have skyrocketed while the living wage has stayed pretty much the same due to massive levels of immigration. Canada's population is growing by over a million people a year through mostly immigration thanks to Justin Trudeau 9-year liberal rule.

This is a classic example of liberal idealism, the issue is because the population doubled in 10 years the number of houses stayed the same and so the cost of housing has become completely unaffordable.

I was completely naïve and unaware of how immigration could affect the economy until I lived it first hand.

You should fear massive levels of immigration if it's not handled properly by the government. Justin Trudeau failed to build housing to support the population explosion and so the cost of living has gone up to a ridiculous level.

There's likely additional dangers to immigration that are not obvious, in my local park it is filled with Stage blue Muslims all newly immigrated within the past 10 years, and all of them have children of course because their stage blue! I have nothing against Muslims but you're introducing less conscious people into the population in Mass and I have no idea how that affects the country.

Justin Trudeau is very likely going to lose the next election and a conservative will take power. The conservatives in Canada have had a very strong social media presence built on mostly attacking Justin Trudeau like little children.

This is a clip of Pierre Poilievre Who is going to replace Justin Trudeau in the next election. He's a classic pretending to be family values pretending to be Christian running against the liberal party who of course is not going to bring any good to the economy, and people voting from our just naive because they want to change.

--
Edit: Probably not related to immigration see comment bellow. 

 

I am from Toronto Canada and I can say there is definitely more and more homeless here, and it seems to be noticeably worse every few months. There is not enough jobs for many of the people born and raised in Canada, and also not enough for the students that come. Increased crime rates, record debts, stagflation, record amounts of mental illness, drug abuse, inflation, lack of production etc. Our public transit system has record homeless causing trouble on it and incidents daily, more and more frequently. Our healthcare services are taking record time for waiting lists. The system is pretty broken. I have heard many of my friends say "Canada is a scam country." or "It's becoming 3rd world where many people can't even find employment, can't afford rent nor food" or "The elites are trying to kill off people" or "these days you have to commit fraud to even stay alive because of thinning capitalism" etc And it's honestly hard for me to disagree with them, And yes Leo is correct, our population is low and we aren't fucking enough hahaha. Forget about fucking... I can imagine is it very difficult to even try dating or hooking up now. There's so many people not even in the right frame of mind for that. Not to mention even affording something like Mcdonald's or fast food here is like a luxury only for the rich.

So if you find reality a bit unbearable here, you are not alone. I think many people feel the same way. I am probably considered middle upper class in Toronto and even I feel like complaining  I have several friends living on well over 100k a year jobs, and still require major parental support. At least there aren't wars going on.

For the record, it wouldn't be fair to blame Liberals or Conservatives or any specific group/party. It's more about the overall vote count and mindset of Canadians. Even the Conservatives if they get into power, have to behave in ways that follow the attitude of the voters. So the immigration isn't going to stop just because someone else other than Trudeau comes into power. I see even many Liberals being very upset at Trudeau now. But Trudeau is not their concern. This is also why Pierre Poilievre is getting less praise now compared to Q1 of 2024 or last year. Because he's now starting to have to follow the agendas as well. Unfortunately, things are only going to get worse. Just be thankful we don't have riots yet like the UK. Canadians are still relatively peaceful!

Edited August 17 by TheEnigma

[Quader]

In Canada, "illegals" are separate from immigration. Illegals are people who have smuggled themselves into Canada unauthorized which is rare because of our lone border belonging to the States. It would be people over plane refusing to leave or something like that. 

 We invite people who are skilled workers (and their families) that are prepared to work in a field Canada deems required/in their best interests to strengthen. This is introducing an extremely competitive environment for everyone and  employers aren't being incentivized to offer employees more. 

When an industry makes a request - they are able to choose from a global pool of potential candidates, of which there are 10000X more than they need who are qualified. They have their pick of the litter across all nations. Why would they consider training the current population or accepting less experienced local candidates? That's what makes it so challenging for average joes born in raised in Canada.

Now this is perfectly fine to raise a competitive and bolstered economy if plans were made in terms of infrastructure (both affordability and its expanse). Canada's government doesn't have control of housing or construction, they contract it out. They don't have the tools they need to strongarm the development that should be requisite when a pop growth is outsourced. We can't have children because of affordability, not only ideology/culture changes. It's rough, and too competitive. Houses shouldn't be a source of investment.

A house is like a car, it should lose value once its been lived in not gain value lol

Edited August 17 by Quader

[integral]

14 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

@integral Lol, immigrants are actually leaving Canada. Canada became so expensive it is not worth it for them any more. They say they work so much for so little.

Canada's economy is seriously flawed. It is always so easy to use immigrants as an excuse. Watch some YT videos about analyzing Canadian Economy. It is much better than watching right wingers barking about immigrants.

Lmaoo I agree for the most part, my line of thinking was that let me investigate fears conservative have and see if there's some partial truth to it. Like what's the pros and cons of immigrants?

If there's no negative to uncontrolled immigration then why aren't we encouraging Mass immigration. If immigration = equals more economic growth than we should be poaching people from other countries and trying to amass the largest population, right?

Why aren't we doing this? Again this is speculation I don't understand the topic. 

Edited August 17 by integral

[Leo Gura]

I am disappointed that this kinda content is posted on this forum.

Edited August 17 by Leo Gura

[TheEnigma]

4 hours ago, integral said:

Lmaoo I agree for the most part, my line of thinking was that let me investigate fears conservative have and see if there's some partial truth to it. Like what's the pros and cons of immigrants?

If there's no negative to uncontrolled immigration then why aren't we encouraging Mass immigration. If immigration = equals more economic growth than we should be poaching people from other countries and trying to amass the largest population, right?

Why aren't we doing this? Again this is speculation I don't understand the topic. 

1 minute ago, TheEnigma said:

 

Yes. A lot of illegal activity is still going on. For example, Vancouver has some of the most expensive real estate in the world. Because of the foreigners from the Pacific. In China, there is a lot of corrupt money, that many individuals have made since the 60's. If they leave their money there, their communist Government will take it from them. But if they put their money in Canada, as long as they pay taxes, their money is safe. The Government makes their cut, and then it drives the housing up so insanely that the locals born here will never be able to even afford a small condo. Yet Canada presents itself as accepting, multicultural, diverse... But most of the individuals they invite over don't even care to follow a lot of Canadian culture, and they still live in their own ghettos, creating all this segregation. Every decade since the 1960s, Canada's quality of life has decreased, and it will continue to be this way for the foreseeable future.

Yes. A lot of illegal activity is still going on. For example, Vancouver has some of the most expensive real estate in the world. Because of the foreigners from the Pacific. In China, there is a lot of corrupt money, that many individuals have made since the 60's. If they leave their money there, their communist Government will take it from them. But if they put their money in Canada, as long as they pay taxes, their money is safe. The Government makes their cut, and then it drives the housing up so insanely that the locals born here will never be able to even afford a small condo. Yet Canada presents itself as accepting, multicultural, diverse... But most of the individuals they invite over don't even care to follow a lot of Canadian culture, and they still live in their own ghettos, creating all this segregation. Every decade since the 1960s, Canada's quality of life has decreased, and it will continue to be this way for the foreseeable future.

[TheEnigma]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am disappointed that this kinda content is posted on this forum.

I am sorry Leo. But shouldn't the elites be exposed? Also isn't it more disappointing that some human beings are just after more and more control and power? Causing everyone else to suffer just for vote counts, money, titles... when they already have more than enough. You also once said that if a society is at that stage of spiritual development that it makes it hard for the individuals to rise above it. But that it would quickly pull the individual up to it's level. This is not an excuse, but unfortunately, we still have to deal with reality.

Edited August 17 by TheEnigma

[integral]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I am disappointed that this kinda content is posted on this forum.

So immigration is a side note and has no real importance in the big picture of why large economic movements happen. Is this The General point? 

[Thought Art]

On 2024-08-14 at 10:24 AM, Leo Gura said:

Real estate has skyrocketed in the US as well, but it's not because illegals are buying up all the houses, it's due to covid inflation, printing money, and excessive capitalism.

You have to be very careful about jumping to conclusions and attributing self-biased causes to such issues.

Causation in an economy is a very complex thing. It's never as simple as: more immigrants = higher prices.

Don't forget that immigrants contribute to your economy. If anything Canada's population is too low and ya'll aren't fucking enough.

Actually, this is a popular and contentious issues in Canada right now. Immigrants, international student and a housing crisis. People including myself don’t really understand what is happening.

We already have a housing crisis.. so if the population increases beyond our infrastructures carrying capacity it seems to me many challenges could occur. The population isn’t just immigrants but international students. 

We have an infrastructure issue. Population is growing faster than we can build houses. The population growth, as I understand it is driven by immigrants. There is tent cities everywhere especially my home city. 

Whatever is happening, the cost of living has gone up it appears to me. People are struggling. 
 

Hmm, I would need to do more research. 
 

I think, we do need to look at the pros and cons of immigration in Canada. Don’t let someone, Leo or anyone shame you out of looking at every detail and considering it. But, use feedback to create a more accurate understanding. 
 

Questioning if immigration has downsides isn’t always self biased… what sort of thinking is that. 
 

Leo can be disappointed this is on his forum, but also Canadians are struggling and confused as to why. Sometimes people need feedback and to have tough conversations. Knowing how complex politics is.. you shouldn’t even be surprised people are having these questions Leo.

If you have the solution to the increased costs of living let us know…. 

Edited August 18 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

I should also state that most Canadians do recognize the importance and contribution of immigrants. We are a diverse country. But, we must also ask these questions as it’s our country and we want to keep it operating well. When people decide to demonize you over not being sure if immigration has negative effects that’s bad politics. We should be able to actually contemplate and figure things out without being demonized. 
 

If anything, we want to ensure we are carrying our Canadian values, one of which is immigration, in a balanced and responsible way. If it’s true there is magically no downside to immigration the cost of living, then I’d like to see the data. I’d like to see more data in general how immigration in Canada affects the country. I would like it unbiased. 

 

 

I asked Claude AI: 

Yes, immigration can potentially strain living infrastructure in various ways:

1. Housing pressure: Rapid population growth due to immigration can increase demand for housing, potentially leading to:
   - Rising rent and property prices
   - Housing shortages in popular areas
   - Increased urban density and potential overcrowding

2. Transportation systems:
   - More users on public transit, possibly causing overcrowding
   - Increased traffic congestion on roads
   - Greater demand for parking spaces

3. Healthcare services:
   - Longer wait times for medical appointments and procedures
   - Increased pressure on emergency services
   - Potential shortage of healthcare professionals

4. Education system:
   - Overcrowded classrooms
   - Need for more schools and teachers
   - Increased demand for language support services

5. Utilities and public services:
   - Greater strain on water supply and sewage systems
   - Increased energy consumption
   - More pressure on waste management systems

6. Social services:
   - Higher demand for settlement services
   - Increased need for language and job training programs
   - Potential strain on welfare systems, depending on immigrants' economic integration

7. Public spaces:
   - More use of parks, libraries, and community centers
   - Potential overcrowding in recreational areas

It's important to note that while immigration can strain infrastructure in the short term, it can also bring long-term benefits. Immigrants often contribute to economic growth, pay taxes, and can help address labor shortages, potentially providing resources to improve infrastructure over time. The impact largely depends on the rate of immigration, existing infrastructure capacity, and government policies to manage growth.

Would you like me to expand on any particular aspect of infrastructure strain?

Edited August 18 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

On 2024-08-16 at 9:59 PM, LSD-Rumi said:

@integral Lol, immigrants are actually leaving Canada. Canada became so expensive it is not worth it for them any more. They say they work so much for so little.

Canada's economy is seriously flawed. It is always so easy to use immigrants as an excuse. Watch some YT videos about analyzing Canadian Economy. It is much better than watching right wingers barking about immigrants.

This is true I have seen in CBC. Cost of living is so bad many people are struggling. 

[eos_nyxia]

On 2024-08-16 at 7:43 PM, TheEnigma said:

And yes Leo is correct, our population is low and we aren't fucking enough hahaha. Forget about fucking... I can imagine is it very difficult to even try dating or hooking up now. There's so many people not even in the right frame of mind for that. Not to mention even affording something like Mcdonald's or fast food here is like a luxury only for the rich.

Everyone I know growing up who wanted to have kids and not rent forever left Metro Vancouver a long time ago. Like 10+ years ago. Often to the farther reaches of the Fraser Valley or to Alberta. I can't blame people for neither wanting nor feeling financially secure enough to have kids here, period. The rest of BC seems to be following the rising rent prices, including places that many of us growing up in the Lower Mainland (Metro Vancouver) thought of as the absolute boonies.

I didn't realize how badly it had gotten until I started looking around very recently at rental prices all across BC and even in other major cities in Canada (excluding Toronto, Montreal, etc.), including the East Coast, Alberta, etc.  It seems like post-Covid has been especially bad, like the last 2 years, the reality of which I've been blissfully insulated because the price of my rental has mostly been locked in since I moved to my current location in about 2016, and only started rising significantly within the last couple years.

Many places have doubled or even tripled the cost of what it would have been less than 10 years ago. Instead, we have many people house-sharing, and renting single rooms for what used to get you a 1-2 bedroom suite (albeit a cheaper one). 

Quote

So if you find reality a bit unbearable here, you are not alone. I think many people feel the same way. I am probably considered middle upper class in Toronto and even I feel like complaining  I have several friends living on well over 100k a year jobs, and still require major parental support. At least there aren't wars going on.

Pretty much no one here has any chance of ever buying a house unless your parents help pay for yours or gift you one. It really doesn't matter what sort of traditionally upper-middle job you and your spouse work. It's not happening.

Overall: we're not really the fighting and protesting sort, are we? Critiquing and complaining, yes. I think we're fatalistic overall, and often trying to make the best of whatever is given to us circumstantially.

Edited August 18 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

On 2024-08-16 at 2:54 PM, EdgeGod900 said:

So @integralis holistically correct to assume that 1million immigrants come to Canada a year since almost half a million become immigrants through the guise of "internation student."

Fun Question: how well would our major city infrastructure run if legally underpaid international students were not a thing?

Edited August 18 by eos_nyxia

[Thewritersunion]

Most of the benefits of mass immigration is short term (in a collective sense), though you can (as a country) get a good crop of smart and productive people. 
The main problem is that unless you get someone who is already established and productive in their previous home, it is very unlikely you’ll get someone who will economically integrated. Though I’d argue integration is more about cultural integration. 
 

All that happens is that long term you get people from different cultures who want to bring their own cultures on top of the pre-existing culture; most illegal and legal migrants become dependent off of the welfare state; they have to compete for housing, food, etc which makes prices go up; labor costs go down or stagnant; more importantly it makes dating harder as a lot of migrants are men.

There are some benefits of immigration, but no western country has the means to do so financially or spiritually or communally right now. 
 

 

[Consept]

If you really think about it, legal migration is a much better deal for the country compared to a citizen born in the country. 

An immigrant doesn't use up any taxpayer money being educated or any health care as an infant or teenager. When they move to the country they work, either doing highly skilled jobs or minimum wage jobs that natives don't want to do. They pay their tax and are much less likely to claim benefits. 

Then when they retire 45% of them go back home. 

So overall it is a good deal for the country. I think most of the issues are immigration just done badly ie illegal immigrants 

[Thewritersunion]

@Consept most high skilled jobs barely pay enough to live, just sayin. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 8/17/2024 at 3:24 AM, EdgeGod900 said:

So @integralis holistically correct to assume that 1million immigrants come to Canada a year since almost half a million become immigrants through the guise of "internation student."

So you didn't consider international students as immigrants the whole time?

MS is a pathway to citizenship. 

That's the only reason they are doing it. Not working and leaving back to home country. I thought this was obvious.

[CARDOZZO]

Canada is building a sillicon valley at Montreal.

To stay competitive, you need immigrants on different areas of work not only tech.

Brazil is what it is because of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Portugueses, Japaneses, Africans).

US loves specialized workforce from India, Japan, China, Eastern Europe. 

[Thought Art]

I really am not an expert. 
 

How can I become more informed, what are pre requisites of study to know how anything effects anything else in this complex system of Canada 

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I really am not an expert. 
 

How can I become more informed, what are pre requisites of study to know how anything effects anything else in this complex system of Canada 

I personally observe how a system responds to external stimuli. 

Make theories to explain that behaviour. 

Rinse & Repeat.