Jordan Peterson is deranged

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Something Funny said:

@Scholar it's literally one paragraph...

The insightful thing is that everyone is on a bandwagon of judging Elon based on Twitter comments and other random social media posts they see about it. This is very unoriginal and unintelligent.

A smart thing to do would be to actually study him, without judgement, and gain deeper understanding of his personality, and then form your opinion based on that. Because there are things that you could respect about him, even if his politics are bad.

Well I am speaking to his maturity as a person. Tell me a single insightful thing he said about something that does not fall in his area of expertise. 

[Something Funny]

@Scholar I don't know. I haven't gotten around to studying Elon yet.

But that was not the point of what Leo was saying.

[LordFall]

@Scholar How can you say Elon doesn't say smart things? That's a near psychotic take. Clearly there are many facets to human beings and he could use some maturity in some departments but in terms of actual impact to the human race he's involved in most fields that humanity is making progress in this century. 

I think his treatment of his daughter is awful and some of his takes make him seem like an anime character but you'd have a hard time making the argument that he's not one of the smartest and most effective humans alive today. He's already revolutionized the car industry and soon enough the medical industry and you could argue capitalism and civilization itself with Optimus robots coming soon. 

[Scholar]

Just now, LordFall said:

@Scholar How can you say Elon doesn't say smart things? That's a near psychotic take. Clearly there are many facets to human beings and he could use some maturity in some departments but in terms of actual impact to the human race he's involved in most fields that humanity is making progress in this century. 

I think his treatment of his daughter is awful and some of his takes make him seem like an anime character but you'd have a hard time making the argument that he's not one of the smartest and most effective humans alive today. He's already revolutionized the car industry and soon enough the medical industry and you could argue capitalism and civilization itself with Optimus robots coming soon. 

I don't care about any of this, just tell me a single thing he said that you thought was  insightful that didn't fall in his area of expertise.

 

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Scholar I don't know. I haven't gotten around to studying Elon yet.

But that was not the point of what Leo was saying.

I know what Leo is saying, I have no idea what that has to do with anything I said.

[Joshe]

Watch the Ted interview aurum shared. Elon says the reason he has so many kids is because he's worried about population collapse and he needs to set an example. He fucks for humanity, not himself. Can't you see guys... he's all-loving. He works 22/7 to prevent catastrophe for humans. 

@aurum Do you believe he fucks for humanity? Because if you do, well, end of conversation. If you don't, you must not give as much weight to that deception as I do.

What I do with it is recognize that if he's that full of shit there, he's highly likely to be full of shit on every other claim of caring about humanity. And since this is just ONE instance of deception or self-deception that exists on top of a mountain of deception, the position that Musk is truly benevolent and not operating from near total self-agenda is absurd. 

I'm guessing this might be born from once being a Musk fan boy or something. Reflecting back, did you used to admire Elon? If so, that explains it.

Your position is one that Fox News, OAN, and Newsmax people believe in, which is:

Elon musk = humanitarian genius who has a deep concern for humanity.

Whereas the outlets that don't cater to the lowest IQ people on the planet mostly don't have that narrative that you and Fox have. 

If you want to do spiritual exercises to practice empathy, that's all good. I can empathize with Elon, Trump, or whoever, and see from his worldview and feel for him and train myself to love him if I want to. But this is about epistemology. What is actually true. 

Edited August 14 by Joshe

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Watch the Ted interview aurum shared. Elon says the reason he has so many kids is because he's worried about population collapse and he needs to set an example. He fucks for humanity, not himself. Can't you see guys... he's all-loving. He works 22/7 to prevent catastrophe for humans. 

@aurum Do you believe he fucks for humanity? Because if you do, well, end of conversation. If you don't, you must not give as much weight to that deception as I do.

What I do with it is recognize that if he's that full of shit there, he's highly likely to be full of shit on every other claim of caring about humanity. And since this is just ONE instance of deception or self-deception that exists on top of a mountain of deception, the position that Musk is truly benevolent and not operating from near total self-agenda, is absurd. 

I'm guessing this might be born from once being a Musk fan boy or something. Reflecting back, did you used to admire Elon? If so, that explains it.

Your position is one that Fox News, OAN, and Newsmax people believe in, which is:

Elon musk = humanitarian genius who has a deep concern for humanity.

Whereas the outlets that don't cater to the lowest IQ people on the planet mostly don't have that narrative that you and Fox have. 

If you want to do spiritual exercises to practice empathy, that's all good. I can empathize with Elon, Trump, or whoever, and see from his worldview and feel for him and train myself to love him if I want to. But this is about epistemology. What is actually true. 

It's obvious that he is full of shit, given the Trump interview. His positions are entirely self-serving.

[Joshe]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It's obvious that he is full of shit, given the Trump interview. His positions are entirely self-serving.

I thought it was blatantly obvious as well. But there are quite a few here who disagree. I think it's because they were once Musk fanboys. 

[questionreality]

It's very funny to observe this thread and see how the leftists who usually accuse the right of being judgmental, close-minded, and constantly virtue signal, actually behave exactly like the people they criticize. 

It's like a mask that they wear and once the person that they don't like crosses a certain threshold to trigger them, the mask comes off.

I am referring to people who are quick to judge Elon, without actually taking the time to figure out who he actually is.

But the fact remains, is that Elon has already done 100x more for the world than they will ever do in their lifetimes.

 

Edited August 14 by questionreality

[aurum]

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 Do you believe he fucks for humanity? Because if you do, well, end of conversation. If you don't, you must not give as much weight to that deception as I do.

Sex is obviously not purely altruistic. There's probably some degree of self-deception there.

But also, he might have legitimate concerns about population. That's not an unreasonable position.

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 What I do with it is recognize that if he's that full of shit there, he's highly likely to be full of shit on every other claim of caring about humanity.

That's not how truth works at all.

You're using a mental shortcut rather than dealing with each claim individually.

Elon could be full of shit on 99.9% of his claims and still be right 0.1% of the time.

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 the position that Musk is truly benevolent and not operating from near total self-agenda is absurd.

Every operates from a mix of both benevolence and selfishness. It's just a question of degree.

The position being taken is that Elon is less self-absorbed than you and many leftists portray him as.

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 I'm guessing this might be born from once being a Musk fan boy or something. Reflecting back, did you used to admire Elon? If so, that explains it.

Part of the reason Musk has fans is because some of his business accomplishments are legitimately impressive and of value for humanity.

Personally I don't really have strong feelings one way or another towards him.

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 Your position is one that Fox News, OAN, and Newsmax people believe in, which is:

Elon musk = humanitarian genius who has a deep concern for humanity.

1) That's not my position

2) If Fox News, OAN and Newsmax happen to be more correct on this particular issue, then they are more correct. Just saying "Fox News believes this, therefore it must be wrong" is again another mental shortcut.

This is not about engaging in the culture war.

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

 Whereas the outlets that don't cater to the lowest IQ people on the planet mostly don't have that narrative that you and Fox have.

They have their own bias.

22 minutes ago, Joshe said:

But this is about epistemology. What is actually true. 

Good. Then seriously consider everything I've written above.

[LordFall]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I don't care about any of this, just tell me a single thing he said that you thought was  insightful that didn't fall in his area of expertise.

I don't know what you consider his area of expertise but he said that humans communicate with reality very slowly and that's probably why AI would get bored of us. Neuralink will allow us to communicate much faster potentially a few hundred bits per second which is insane. If you consider how fast humans process things within 10 seconds like at best you're able to consciously compute 2-3 things. Which for a reality that's potentially infinite that's quite slow. 

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

I don't know what you consider his area of expertise but he said that humans communicate with reality very slowly and that's probably why AI would get bored of us. Neuralink will allow us to communicate much faster potentially a few hundred bits per second which is insane. If you consider how fast humans process things within 10 seconds like at best you're able to consciously compute 2-3 things. Which for a reality that's potentially infinite that's quite slow. 

This is a child talking. AI getting bored of us because we are too slow? How is that in any way insightful?

And there is no evidence that neuralink will be able to do anything, it's all a hypothetical fantasy. And how will any of it make us be able to compute things faster?

[Something Funny]

2 hours ago, questionreality said:

It's very funny to observe this thread and see how the leftists who usually accuse the right of being judgmental, close-minded, and constantly virtue signal, actually behave exactly like the people they criticize. 

It's like a mask that they wear and once the person that they don't like crosses a certain threshold to trigger them, the mask comes off.

I am referring to people who are quick to judge Elon, without actually taking the time to figure out who he actually is.

But the fact remains, is that Elon has already done 100x more for the world than they will ever do in their lifetimes.

 

At least left judges people for their actual faults in their character / actions. Like lacking integrity, lying, being a bigot, mistreating other people, mistreating nature, mistreating animals.

Right judges people simply because they exist...

So I don't think you should be the one talking.

[questionreality]

22 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

At least left judges people for their actual faults in their character / actions. Like lacking integrity, lying, being a bigot, mistreating other people, mistreating nature, mistreating animals.

Right judges people simply because they exist...

So I don't think you should be the one talking.

No, the "faults" that you perceive a lot of the time are your own projections - because you assume a lot without knowing the person, exactly what you accuse the right of doing.

And judgements are judgements - it doesn't really change much.

At least the the right doesn't virtue signal and pretend to be something that it's not - while the left pretends to be non judgmental ,  and is actually fake - because it's just a mask.

[Joshe]

@aurum 

Thanks for responding. I agree to some extent with much of what you said but much of it is too simplistic and some of it is pure fallacy. 

For example:

4 hours ago, aurum said:

Elon could be full of shit on 99.9% of his claims and still be right 0.1% of the time.

My shortcut/heuristic attempts to track and keep count of deceptions for use as a tool to navigate reality. The process is certainly fallible. I don't know with 100% certainty and neither do you. The difference is, I'm confident in my reads and you're not. You see my confidence as bias and your yielding of judgement as wisdom, but what if I told you that my confidence is not bias and your yielding is not wise? 

You can point to margin of error as reason to not judge reality but this collapses quickly. I hope you'll unpack this very sneaky, likely unconscious, tactic you're using here. 

I can see it being wise to yield your judgements if you want to be in a passive relationship to reality. But I don't think it's wise to be in the midst of reality and making claims about it without attempting to discern what is true about it. As you mentioned, the intricacies of reality do not lend themselves to true/false boolean assignments. 

You're right. The disagreement is this: 

4 hours ago, aurum said:

The position being taken is that Elon is less self-absorbed than you and many leftists portray him as.

I have dealt with your position but you have not dealt with mine. 

I acknowledge these

• How much good Elon has produced for humanity. I'm fully on board that he's most likely a net positive for humanity and has brought immense value.
• I'm not saying he's a piece of shit, although he is, but I am not saying anything like that. OMIT THAT.
• I'm not saying he shouldn't exist
• I'm not saying he is fully selfish, I know he's human. I'm aware that everyone has in them the innocence of the child. I'm not new to consciousness work. 

Also, I am not a leftist and I don't have a leftist agenda against him. If you stop painting me into whatever box you're painting me, maybe you can see what I'm trying to say. 

I will attempt once more: 

If you recognize 10 instances of Musk flat out bullshitting, and you say:

4 hours ago, aurum said:

There's probably some degree of self-deception there.

What do you do with those judgements? It seems to me you simply say "he's human, just like the rest of us. he has good qualities too", and that's the extent of what you do with it. 

Notice how you might pat yourself on the head here and call yourself wise for yielding your judgement. 

Now, if he lies 100 more times, will you say: 

4 hours ago, aurum said:

There's probably some degree of self-deception there.

And what will you do with those 100 instances? My guess is, yield your judgement and pat yourself on the head some more.

What about 1000 more times? Will you say: 

4 hours ago, aurum said:

There's probably some degree of self-deception there.

 

If you don't make a negative judgement onto reality when someone continually lies and deceives and manipulates the truth and spreads falsehood, I have to tell you, you are the biased one. Not a wise one. Case in point, Trumpists. They hear about and see the deception with their own eyes and what do they do with it? "so what... he's still good". 

BIAS! 

Like the Trumpists, even if I could get you to admit he's highly deceptive, you would still argue that he has more virtue than vice or that even if he only has 20% virtue, that's enough for you to call it good that his main driver is benevolence and not self-interest. 

You cannot dismantle what is being said here because that's actually how truth works. I already know every defense you could take and none of them line up with reality.

FYI, there's much more evidence beyond an extraordinary record of deception that points to the opposite of benevolence. 

Edited August 15 by Joshe

[aurum]

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

but what if I told you that my confidence is not bias and your yielding is not wise? 

Then I'd say you would be wrong.

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

You can point to margin of error as reason to not judge reality but this collapses quickly. I hope you'll unpack this very sneaky, likely unconscious, tactic you're using here. 

It's not a tactic. It's inevitable.

Judgements of Elon will be relative, including the ones you are making.

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

I can see it being wise to yield your judgements if you want to be in a passive relationship to reality. But I don't think it's wise to be in the midst of reality and making claims about it without attempting to discern what is true about it. 

This is me discerning what is true about reality. You're witnessing it.

It's not about being passive, it's about the attempt to be unbiased.

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

Also, I am not a leftist and I don't have a leftist agenda against him. If you stop painting me into whatever box you're painting me, maybe you can see what I'm trying to say. 

Fair enough. But then I expect you to extend that courtesy to me as well.

You have to at least admit your critique is similar to the one made by many leftists, even if you don't see yourself as one.

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

If you don't make a negative judgement onto reality when someone continually lies and deceives and manipulates the truth and spreads falsehood, I have to tell you, you are the biased one. Not a wise one. Case in point, Trumpists. They hear about and see the deception with their own eyes and what do they do with it? "so what... he's still good". 

BIAS! 

Like the Trumpists, even if I could get you to admit he's highly deceptive, you would still argue that he has more virtue than vice or that even if he only has 20% virtue, that's enough for you to call it good that his main driver is benevolence and not self-interest. 

You cannot dismantle what is being said here because that's actually how truth works. I already know every defense you could take and none of them line up with reality. Time to bust out the moral relativity? 😂

FYI, there's much more evidence beyond a record of deception that points to the opposite of benevolence. 

I do have critiques of Elon. We could do a whole thread just on Elon's flaws if we wanted.

My intention here is to balance the critique.

It's extremely easy to become unbalanced when it comes to these kind of topics, which I know from first-hand experience of being wrong so many times.

So here's the punchline:

Elon is indeed a morally complex person. This cannot be helped, it just is the reality of the situation. I'm not going to attempt to put numbers on it, but suffice to say he's not a cartoon character conman. He runs real, innovative businesses and is quite exceptional at doing so. But he also is part of a toxic Stage Orange-type environment dominated by survival, which creates various problems. And he himself still has much personal growth to aspire to, both spiritually and otherwise.

Edited August 15 by aurum

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

It's not about being passive, it's about the attempt to be unbiased.

Do you not value anything? Why be unbiased? You can choose your biases. 

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Fair enough. But then I expect you to extend that curtsey to me as well.

I don't know enough about you to put you into a box...yet, but I'm learning! 

1 hour ago, aurum said:

You have to at least admit your critique is similar to the one made by many leftists, even if you don't see yourself as one.

Like you said, if the left just so happens to be right on this, so be it. Also, the thing I dislike most about Elon is not Elon. It's the lie that he's benevolent. 

1 hour ago, aurum said:

My intention here is to balance the critique.

It's extremely easy to become unbalanced when it comes to these kind of topics, which I know from first-hand experience of being wrong so many times.

So here's the punchline:

Elon is indeed a morally complex person. This cannot be helped, it just is the reality of the situation. I'm not going to attempt to put numbers on it, but suffice to say he's not a cartoon character conman. He runs real, innovative businesses and is quite exceptional at doing so. But he also is part of a toxic Stage Orange-type environment dominated by survival, which creates various problems. And he himself still has much personal growth to aspire to, both spiritually and otherwise.

I appreciate that. And thanks for letting me probe your intelligence and putting up with me. 

Honestly, when looking at some of his videos, something about him makes me feel sad and I feel sorry for him. So I totally recognize he's a human doing the best he can but I also recognize he's highly narcissistic and he goes out of his way to spread the message that he's benevolent. I'm not going to just conjure up the sad videos and ignore what he's done with Twitter, how he supports Trump, his regular attitude, his record of deception, and most importantly, his ongoing brand-awareness campaign to paint himself as a benevolent genius.

These things do not point to benevolence. What really gives me confidence in my read is that I know he wants people to think that. When a narcissist billionaire wants people to think that and then floods the zone with that sentiment and people start believing it, that's what I have a problem with. If he has to deceive to be seen as benevolent, that removes him from my definition of benevolent. 

Edited August 15 by Joshe

[aurum]

35 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Do you not value anything? Why be unbiased? You can choose your biases. 

That's a very good question.

The answer is: being unbiased is a natural consequence of valuing truth.

The more you care about truth, the less unbiased you must become.

35 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Like you said, if the left just so happens to be right on this, so be it. Also, the thing I dislike most about Elon is not Elon. It's the lie that he's benevolent. 

The left IS right. But only partially so. And there's the rub.

Synthesizing partial truths is where the gold is.

35 minutes ago, Joshe said:

These things do not point to benevolence. What really gives me confidence in my read is that I know he wants people to think that. When a narcissist billionaire wants people to think that and then floods the zone with that sentiment and people start believing it, that's what I have a problem with. If he has to deceive to be seen as benevolent, that removes him from my definition of benevolent

Benevolence is an obvious fantasy. No one should take that as a serious position towards anyone, including Elon.

[Leo Gura]

If you value understanding, you will surrender your stage Green SJW narratives.

[Something Funny]

5 hours ago, questionreality said:

No, the "faults" that you perceive a lot of the time are your own projections - because you assume a lot without knowing the person, exactly what you accuse the right of doing.

Oh, you mean like how you assumed the shit out of me yesterday and how you are constantly trying to pick arguments with people who just mind their own business because of your own projections?

5 hours ago, questionreality said:

And judgements are judgements - it doesn't really change much.

You mean like your judgements of the left or of trans people? That are so pervasive in your thinking that you can't shut up about it and keep starting the same debate about it here again and again?

Please don't drag slirituality into this. Two can play this game.

5 hours ago, questionreality said:

At least the the right doesn't virtue signal and pretend to be something that it's not - while the left pretends to be non judgmental ,  and is actually fake - because it's just a mask.

Right does virtue signal and does pretend to be something they are not. 

Right can't shut up about stage blue moral values and christianity, and how left is selfish and hedonistic, while voting for the most hedonistic rapist and con artist that they could find in America.

Left never pretended to be absoultely non judgemental and uncondotionally loving. Do you expect them to be angels or something? 

You have a mess in your head, and you are confusing spiritual values that people are talking about on this forum with the left.

 

 

 

Edited August 15 by Something Funny

[Joshe]

58 minutes ago, aurum said:

Benevolence is an obvious fantasy. No one should take that as a serious position towards anyone, including Elon.

But in reality, they do, and Elon exploits it. I don't like that exploitation. It seems like you're saying you're aware of the exploitation I'm aware of, but it doesn't bother you the same way it bothers me. Is that right? 

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you value understanding, you will surrender your stage Green SJW narratives.

@Leo Gura Can you explain? I am defending what I think is true. I care about truth in the sense that I believe it's how to stamp out evil. I don't hate evil. I hate falsehood because evil can't exist without falsehood. Once evil is here, I understand it is here. Which is why I don't hate Musk. I hate the believed falsehood. I'm not out here demonizing Musk's pollution stacks or flipping out about Gaza. I'm trying to figure out if there might be some of what you say is in me but I'm not sure if you've read me accurately. Obviously I respect your opinion and will seriously consider what you say but I want to make sure you aren't painting me into green sjw box that I don't think I belong in. 

Edit: If people didn't fall for the Musk propaganda, I would pay no mind to Musk. The only reason he's worth calling out is the same reason Trump is worth calling out. Because when there's mass falsehood and deception being spread, it doesn't sit right with me. And I will protest that like a SJW. But nothing else. 

Edited August 15 by Joshe