Why is direct experience the highest form of knowing, when...

[Ishanga]

33 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

Ishanga,

By "thought-system" I mean "Paradigm" - Sorry for assuming it would be understood as such.

i.e. You said "Our Bodies and Mind and Genetics and cells, atom etc are all accumulations, or memory of sorts, that is a certain type of Intelligence, that allows Form and Physicality to exist, for Duality to exist, for Us to be here, "

That 'Intelligence' is the expression of a Thought-System.

 

All experiences that are other than The Oneness Which is God which is Absolute are as a whole functioning from a thought-system. Duality is the fundamental Framework from which this thought-system emerges

Thought-System as a product of the Universal Mind not of the human brain!

 

Yes I can agree with this language, Paradigm in the way of meaning as a Pattern or Model of sorts (par·a·digm/ˈperəˌdīm/noun1.a typical example or pattern of something; a model."there is a new paradigm for public art in this country")..

There is a model of sorts, our existence as we know it here, full of Physicality, Grossness (compared to Subtleness), Duality is all set up for us to have Experience so Absolute can Experience itself, it cannot (as far as I can logically see/figure) do that when in Absolute or Oneness realm.. 

Just know using language in this way is in no way a great example of explanation, as I've said before we cannot direct discuss or communicate (with English anyways) these topics, its beyond language, duality and logic... we talk around it that is all, but when one shares this way it maybe truth for them but its a story for us once they communicate it here...

[ICURBlessings]

2 hours ago, Ishanga said:

Yes I can agree with this language, Paradigm in the way of meaning as a Pattern or Model of sorts (par·a·digm/ˈperəˌdīm/noun1.a typical example or pattern of something; a model."there is a new paradigm for public art in this country")..

There is a model of sorts, our existence as we know it here, full of Physicality, Grossness (compared to Subtleness), Duality is all set up for us to have Experience so Absolute can Experience itself, it cannot (as far as I can logically see/figure) do that when in Absolute or Oneness realm.. 

Just know using language in this way is in no way a great example of explanation, as I've said before we cannot direct discuss or communicate (with English anyways) these topics, its beyond language, duality and logic... we talk around it that is all, but when one shares this way it maybe truth for them but its a story for us once they communicate it here...

If I had to define "Paradigm" in this context I would say as in a "ideational framework" made of Laws and Principles. I said earlier fundamental to this Thought-System is Duality, but also fundamental to It is "Limitedness". Death is an expression of Limitedness. Also as a direct effect of this framework CHANGE itself emerges. For CHANGE to unfold, Spacetime is needed - without Spacetime the experience of CHANGE cannot occur.

Spacetime is not expressed "out-of-nowhere", clearly it extends from an organize-system. It is produced within and from the Mind which is the 'field' in which Physicality is expressed. By Physicality I mean the experience of a Physical World - which inherently carries the Laws of Physics.

The idea that you bring forth, I quote: "Duality is all set up for us to have Experience so Absolute can Experience itself, ..." Is an idea that I am familiar with, but that I can not completely agree with. If discussing this interest you, then could elaborate on this.

 

Thanks Ishanga for sharing your thoughts...

Edited August 13, 2024 by ICURBlessings
I want to add a thankyou

[Ishanga]

35 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

If I had to define "Paradigm" in this context I would say as in a "ideational framework" made of Laws and Principles. I said earlier fundamental to this Thought-System is Duality, but also fundamental to It is "Limitedness". Death is an expression of Limitedness. Also as a direct effect of this framework CHANGE itself emerges. For CHANGE to unfold, Spacetime is needed - without Spacetime the experience of CHANGE cannot occur.

Spacetime is not expressed "out-of-nowhere", clearly it extends from an organize-system. It is produced within and from the Mind which is the 'field' in which Physicality is expressed. By Physicality I mean the experience of a Physical World - which inherently carries the Laws of Physics.

The idea that you bring forth, I quote: "Duality is all set up for us to have Experience so Absolute can Experience itself, ..." Is an idea that I am familiar with, but that I can not completely agree with. If discussing this interest you, then could elaborate on this.

 

Thanks Ishanga for sharing your thoughts...

I'll share my theory but its just that a Theory, no Truth can be found in it as I do not really Know!

Absolute is a realm lets say, within it is Oneness, Completeness and Potential/Possibility, but no Experience is there, for that too happen we need Us, Individuals with ability to Experience and have no memory really of this Absolute which makes up our fundamental nature..

So we are here to work this out, play the game of Duality, Karma, Not Knowing, Ego, within this Body and Mind complex that is set up with Survival Instincts, Intellect to guide us on that level playing field, but we have potential to be more than that, that is where Desire comes into play.

Desire is as ingrained within Us just as strongly as Survival Instinct, we have two basic forces playing within Us, the Self Preservation Force, and the Force to go beyond this (Desiring process) to |Break any and all Barriers and be completely Free.

With Self Preservation we build walls around us, its like a self made prison, we feel safe and secure, but we get uptight and frustrated when this is in place, everyone is seeking to go beyond this sort of living situation by wanting to be more than what they are right now, so we are accumulating Experiences, Money, Success, Power, Sex, this that and the other thing but its on the level of either Body or Mind (Ego/Emotions/Ideologies). 

For some they somehow realize this is going on either Consciously or Unconsciously, for the somewhat Conscious ones they become interested in Spirituality, and realize what is what, that we are not this Body or Mind or anything that we have Accumulated and the Absolute is what we are, even Intellectually realizing this is transformative, so we find a way to get to that place of Experience..

This is all happening because Possibility or Duality has to be Expressed somewhere, somehow, so we are it here on this Earth, playing this game and working it all out, so that Absolute can Experience itself as Absolute & Ultimate Potential is Realized. Experience is everything here, otherwise why exist and how is Potential expressed/realized?

Hope this makes sense:)

 

[ICURBlessings]

8 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

I'll share my theory but its just that a Theory, no Truth can be found in it as I do not really Know!

Absolute is a realm lets say, within it is Oneness, Completeness and Potential/Possibility, but no Experience is there, for that too happen we need Us, Individuals with ability to Experience and have no memory really of this Absolute which makes up our fundamental nature..

So we are here to work this out, play the game of Duality, Karma, Not Knowing, Ego, within this Body and Mind complex that is set up with Survival Instincts, Intellect to guide us on that level playing field, but we have potential to be more than that, that is where Desire comes into play.

Desire is as ingrained within Us just as strongly as Survival Instinct, we have two basic forces playing within Us, the Self Preservation Force, and the Force to go beyond this (Desiring process) to |Break any and all Barriers and be completely Free.

With Self Preservation we build walls around us, its like a self made prison, we feel safe and secure, but we get uptight and frustrated when this is in place, everyone is seeking to go beyond this sort of living situation by wanting to be more than what they are right now, so we are accumulating Experiences, Money, Success, Power, Sex, this that and the other thing but its on the level of either Body or Mind (Ego/Emotions/Ideologies). 

For some they somehow realize this is going on either Consciously or Unconsciously, for the somewhat Conscious ones they become interested in Spirituality, and realize what is what, that we are not this Body or Mind or anything that we have Accumulated and the Absolute is what we are, even Intellectually realizing this is transformative, so we find a way to get to that place of Experience..

This is all happening because Possibility or Duality has to be Expressed somewhere, somehow, so we are it here on this Earth, playing this game and working it all out, so that Absolute can Experience itself as Absolute & Ultimate Potential is Realized. Experience is everything here, otherwise why exist and how is Potential expressed/realized?

Hope this makes sense:)

 

Ishanga, Thank you for your reply.

The theory you expressed here make sense - However I see it as a way to resolve an uncomfortable dilemma that the highest thinkers of our history have rustled with.

It could be described in diverse ways - one approach is to observe the inherent need to bridge the Absolute, with what we can call for now - the Non-Absolute.

However if we are to have this discussion, we have to reach via "words & concepts" for some guiding characterizations of what the idea of the Absolute stands for. We already have agreed that the Absolute is inherently 'ineffable' - but this does NOT mean we CANNOT use words to communicate Its meaning. Like all abstract concepts, words can only take the mind so far, yet the ability of the mind to go beyond words exist. I like to think of the words for these extremely abstract ideas as "diving boards".  The part where the mind leaves the symbol behind - the mid-air motion when diving - can be developed through practices of contemplation. I don't know if you know of the ancient practice known as Lectio Divina - it is a good example of such practices.

As far as I know - the ability to explore concepts and ideas beyond the intellect and beyond the region of the mind devoted to verbalization - is highly foreign to mainstream spiritual practices.

 

Sorry, but I have to get back to something I am working on - I will post this anyway although it is far from a complete reply. - I can comeback later to continue this...

 

[Breakingthewall]

It is impossible to remember the absolute because memories are relative, but a memory can facilitate new openings. the absolute is without mind, that is the problem, the door without a door, since you are the door.

It becomes increasingly clear to me that the psyche must be polished in a very fine, gradual way, with many hours of meditation each day, to tame the tiger so that it knows how to move away at will. The psyche is a tenacious beast, it's like the Alien 8 larva that sticks to your face, you're not going to forcibly remove it, it has to be little by little, day by day, minute by minute

[ICURBlessings]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is impossible to remember the absolute because memories are relative, ...

The "Remember" as in Remembering the Absolute, or Remembering God - can be a valid statement within a relative context.

Here is the explanation:

First we must establish the premise that the Soul or Your True Essence, or Your Beingness in its purest state - ORIGINATE from the Absolute. It is still right NOW at ONE with the Absolute but is not aware of It. The soul is one with its Source but the soul's Consciousness is finding itself in Spacetime.

Remembering and Memory is an attribute of Spacetime. Or to simplify we could state that it is an attribute of Time. Beyond Time memory is inconceivable. And the Absolute is entirely beyond Time which is why Breakingthewall made the statement above.

Remembering is a process of Consciousness interacting in Time.

Now I have to introduce the concept known as the linearity of Time. Linear Time is how Consciousness experience its awakening process; or one could say its return to the Absolute. Time has a beginning and an end - and it is experienced as an UNFOLDEMENT moving in a direction defined as the 'Arrow of Time'.

The position in the UNFOLDEMENT of Time where Consciousness finds itself is always the PRESENT - and everything in Time that has UNFOLDED is in the Past, and everything that has NOT UNFOLDED represent  the Future.

MEMORY is the means to have access to something from the Past. In a way one could say that as Time unfolds Memory Increase - Akashic Records represent the Memory of the Universal Mind.

In RELATION to Time, yes the Absolute is beyond Time, but the Absolute is also just before the very first instant of the birth of Time - and also the Absolute stand at the very End of Time.

To REMEMBER the Absolute is related to an experience in Time where Consciousness 'recall' the  very instant before the birth of Time. It would also be valid to say that during that 'recall' Consciousness is also standing at the End of Time.

The soul can - during its journey in Time experience a complete and total recall of the Absolute - that has been called an experience of Revelation. However once the soul finds itself back within the ordinary consciousness of being a human - it cannot remember at 100% - the content of the moment of Revelation - and much less find the words to convey the remembered content.

Edited August 13, 2024 by ICURBlessings
correction

[Hojo]

@Ishanga but when you see God the memory of it will be inside your genetics, if you are just playing philosophy without the direct experience it means nothing because there is no memory and you are just playing word games. If you have a life review and havent seen God you will just be watching random sounds. If its in your memory you will see God again and you will become God you want it in your memory.

When you see God your vibration sky rockets and your body will remember that it will stick out like a sore thumb

Edited August 13, 2024 by Hojo

[ICURBlessings]

24 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

The "Remember" as in Remembering the Absolute, or Remembering God - can be a valid statement within a relative context.

Here is the explanation:

First we must establish the premise that the Soul or Your True Essence, or Your Beingness in its purest state - ORIGINATE from the Absolute. It is still right NOW at ONE with the Absolute but is not aware of It. The soul is one with its Source but the soul's Consciousness is finding itself in Spacetime.

Remembering and Memory is an attribute of Spacetime. Or to simplify we could state that it is an attribute of Time. Beyond Time memory is inconceivable. And the Absolute is entirely beyond Time which is why Breakingthewall made the statement above.

Remembering is a process of Consciousness interacting in Time.

Now I have to introduce the concept known as the linearity of Time. Linear Time is how Consciousness experience its awakening process; or one could say its return to the Absolute. Time has a beginning and an end - and it is experienced as an UNFOLDEMENT moving in a direction defined as the 'Arrow of Time'.

The position in the UNFOLDEMENT of Time where Consciousness finds itself is always the PRESENT - and everything in Time that has UNFOLDED is in the Past, and everything that has NOT UNFOLDED represent  the Future.

MEMORY is the means to have access to something from the Past. In a way one could say that as Time unfolds Memory Increase - Akashic Records represent the Memory of the Universal Mind.

In RELATION to Time, yes the Absolute is beyond Time, but the Absolute is also just before the very first instant of the birth of Time - and also the Absolute stand at the very End of Time.

To REMEMBER the Absolute is related to an experience in Time where Consciousness 'recall' the  very instant before the birth of Time. It would also be valid to say that during that 'recall' Consciousness is also standing at the End of Time.

The soul can - during its journey in Time experience a complete and total recall of the Absolute - that has been called an experience of Revelation. However once the soul finds itself back within the ordinary consciousness of being a human - it cannot remember at 100% - the content of the moment of Revelation - and much less find the words to convey the remembered content.

... it is important to understand that "Remembering God or the Absolute" (which is an experience of Revelation) is NOT the same as 'remembering' where are my keys, or what is my name, or any other form of human memory.

The experience of Revelation is like entering into a river because God or the Absolute is alive - there is nothing as Alive than This. The remembering of God could also be described as "plugging in with Eternal Life Itself".

Edited August 13, 2024 by ICURBlessings

[Forestluv]

I would put direct knowledge prior to memory, which is a second order creation.

As an example. . . observe your surroundings for a moment. There is a 'knowing' that what is happening is happening (regardless of what that is). There is a 'knowing' that you are not in China right know fighting wild dogs in an arena. You don't need any evidence or rationale to validate that knowing. 

Then, we can create all sorts of ideas about what things like knowledge, perception, reality etc is, which would be second order.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Forestluv

[UnbornTao]

On 13/08/2024 at 3:29 PM, ICURBlessings said:

Memory is part of a mechanism where the CONTENT of the PASS is EXTENDED into the Future.

For example, one's self-history might be false (crafted for a purpose).

Even prior to the mere recollection of presumed facts, there already exists a bias of what to remember and how. Rarely is it an accurate remembrance of an event. A lot is subjective: charge, meaning, self-concept, preference. So, how accurate is our memory and what purpose is it serving? Something to look into.

Edited August 19, 2024 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 13/08/2024 at 11:09 PM, Forestluv said:

I would put direct knowledge prior to memory, which is a second order creation.

As an example. . . observe your surroundings for a moment. There is a 'knowing' that what is happening is happening (regardless of what that is). There is a 'knowing' that you are not in China right know fighting wild dogs in an arena. You don't need any evidence or rationale to validate that knowing. 

Then, we can create all sorts of ideas about what things like knowledge, perception, reality etc is, which would be second order.

Would that be "direct" knowledge? I'd say that it's more of a grounded, experiential, and personal knowledge, which is useful and more accurate than mere belief or memory. But what does "direct" even mean if we haven't "experienced" this possibility before? What is experience?

For instance, perception itself might be indirect.

Perhaps, aside from the recognition or sense that we exist, everything else is indirect. This would suggest that we don't directly experience the nature of anything.

Just throwing around some thoughts.

Edited August 18, 2024 by UnbornTao

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Would that be "direct" knowledge? I'd say that it's more of a grounded, experiential, and personal knowledge, which is useful and more accurate than mere belief or memory. But what does "direct" even mean if we haven't "experienced" this possibility before? What is experience?

For instance, perception itself might be indirect.

Perhaps, aside from the recognition or sense that we exist, everything else is indirect. This would suggest that we don't directly experience the nature of anything.

For sure, I spend a lot of time contemplating this space.

Some things are difficult to express in words, because any word used creates "not that word". Here, we can try to use the word "direct" in that it is zero steps. Yet introducing "direct" creates "indirect", opening a door to further exploration and creation. . . which is great, yet has left the origin. . . 

Closer to the origin would be something like "Prescence Knowing Itself". We can sit, let that dissolve and get in touch with that "essence". Or, we could explore things like "what does that mean?" or "how does that happen"?

One idea I like to play with: There are many ways one can perceive "what is happening now".  This is obvious, since different people and different animals percieve "Here and Now" differently. . . There is an infinite number of ways "Here and Now" could be perceived. Yet our perception reduces those possibilities to "that" - what is present. . . that is a tree, music, hunger etc. . . Doing so, eliminates all the other possibilities - for example, the "tree" could be perceived as a dynamic energetic field from a quantum perspective. . . So "what is happening" is happening, yet it is also not happening. . . A fun paradox. 

[UnbornTao]

On 18/08/2024 at 8:25 PM, Forestluv said:

Yet our perception reduces those possibilities to "that" - what is present. . . that is a tree, music, hunger etc. . . Doing so, eliminates all the other possibilities - for example, the "tree" could be perceived as a dynamic energetic field from a quantum perspective. . . So "what is happening" is happening, yet it is also not happening. . . A fun paradox. 

I see what you mean. Also, for the sake of contemplation, I'm going to play devil's advocate:

Perception itself is a phenomenon that provides meaningless sensory data. What is perceived is not a "tree." Instead, that distinction isn't just "perceived" but is a result of complementary activities of interpretation and sense-making. Without these activities, there might not be a "tree" there to begin with. 

Edited August 19, 2024 by UnbornTao