Why is direct experience the highest form of knowing, when...

[Dodo]

... even in the justice system we've put in place, eye witness testimony is one of the least accurate forms of evidence.

" The researchers argued that eyewitnesses are usually correct immediately after a crime takes place, but that their memories become contaminated throughout the process of interviewing and questioning. These inaccuracies in eyewitnesses' memories can lead to wrongful convictions. "

What's the difference between this and our inner journey? Why can we trust our memory of the divine and the impossible to grasp, to be interpreted correctly by our minds when we share about it later?

[Leo Gura]

Memory is not the same as what is usually meant by "direct experience".

But memory is far superior to belief, theory, or fantasy -- which is what most people are operating on.

Since reality is nothing but experience, without sufficient experience you are simply lost in fantasy.

Experience does not guarantee truth, but it's a lot better than not having experience.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

This is a very good question. I always used to say this in the past, but I'll leave it at that because I'd only be speculating. I'll say this, though, that I heard that memory isn't stored in the brain but it's stored in the heart. Studies were shown that heart transplant patients could recall events that weren't theirs but by their recipients'. Again, this is something i heard. 

[Ulax]

Interesting take

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Memory is not the same as what is usually meant by "direct experience".

But memory is far superior to belief, theory, or fantasy -- which is what most people are operating on.

Since reality is nothing but experience, without sufficient experience you are simply lost in fantasy.

Experience does not guarantee truth, but it's a lot better than not having experience.

Are we not subject to our own biases when interpreting such divine experiences? 

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

This is a very good question. I always used to say this in the past, but I'll leave it at that because I'd only be speculating. I'll say this, though, that I heard that memory isn't stored in the brain but it's stored in the heart. Studies were shown that heart transplant patients could recall events that weren't theirs but by their recipients'. Again, this is something i heard. 

Its always interesting to me about the mind and heart connection. 

In my own spiritual experience "psychosis" episode, one of the "good" characters near the end gave me important piece of advice. "Follow your heart, but take your brain with you".

I believe mind and heart both need to work together, ofcourse, heart being the much more powerful of the two, based on its electromagnetic field, but mind perhaps needs to be used to direct it in more meaningful ways.

Perhaps it is true that heart holds the memories, perhaps mind is only RAM. But i cannot speak about that with certainty.

Ps: also ive had experiences which i interpret as my heart singing to my mind, or my inner child singing to my grown up self. It was definitely glorious. Heard from another there is a name for such experiences of hearing song from within, but I forgot it.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Dodo

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Dodo said:

Are we not subject to our own biases when interpreting such divine experiences? 

You are always interpreting experience.

There is no alternative.

[Ishanga]

3 hours ago, Dodo said:

... even in the justice system we've put in place, eye witness testimony is one of the least accurate forms of evidence.

" The researchers argued that eyewitnesses are usually correct immediately after a crime takes place, but that their memories become contaminated throughout the process of interviewing and questioning. These inaccuracies in eyewitnesses' memories can lead to wrongful convictions. "

What's the difference between this and our inner journey? Why can we trust our memory of the divine and the impossible to grasp, to be interpreted correctly by our minds when we share about it later?

I would ask why are You interpreting in the first place, if You are then for sure there is a big chance of mis interpretation.. The key thing is this, the Mind as we normal understand it will never get it, will never be able to decipher and dissect the Absolute, so I would recommend trying not to interpret it too much. 

Exploring it is fine, that is what is really needed. As well before hand if possible, set the direction of where You want to go with this Spiritual path, in reality it is not a path or journey because it is all within You and available right now, but we are so very far away from it in our Perception and Experience it seems to need a journey to get there, but in truth Realization can happen right now, just enjoy it and be grateful that it has happened or is happening, and seek guidance from someone that is already there, which is why the Guru is so important..

 

[James123]

@Leo GuraDirect experience is genuinely not knowing. 

[Ishanga]

3 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Leo GuraDirect experience is genuinely not knowing. 

Genuinely not knowing, for a Human anyways, leads to seeking to Know, Knowing on a certain level anyways is possible but before that comes the realization that I do not know anything, which is very uncommon nowadays, with a true experience of not knowing, the motivation to know will arise naturally, that creates the seeker, this can manifest in many ways, taking psychedelics, Yoga, Buddhism, all sorts of ways and methods to explore it, that is why we are all here, to find out and Know beyond our Survival based understanding of things, this is what makes us different from all other life on this planet!

[Zigzag Idiot]

When I understand someone. I'm able to forgive any transgression or overlook a possible grievance.

Understanding comes from seeing an aspect in them that l have also witnessed in myself. An aspect that might be considered a character flaw.
In having experienced remorse over the 'shared experience', a feeling of empathy arises in myself for their possible uncomfortableness.

Understanding becomes a treasure that brings a form of inner peace and makes patience more possible.

That may sound a bit self righteous the way I worded it. Beginners mind fits well at this point.

[ICURBlessings]

9 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Leo GuraDirect experience is genuinely not knowing. 

This is perhaps a terminology misunderstanding. To "Know" as in a 'direct experience' is different than to "know" as a product of some knowledge acquisition through intellectual or other human manner of learning -  which MUST involve MEMORY.

The direct experience of God or the Absolute is an experience of Revelation that cannot be communicated via language and intellectual concepts. It is inherently "ineffable" (incapable of being expressed in words).

Because we are eternal and infinite, and what Is God is the very Source of our Being(ness) - far in the background of our Mind is the memory of our Source. HOWEVER when we have an experience of REVELATION or DIRECT KNOWING of GOD it can be associated to REMEMBERING (Memory) - BUT the Content is not like our human-memory but a LIVING PRESENCE (It is ALIVE NOW) - which is ETERNALLY with our self as our very own BEINGNESS.

[BlueOak]

• Self-Viewing: The Experience | Your mind as a Filter
• Retelling: The Experience | Your mind as a Filter | The listener's mind as a filter
• 2nd Hand Accounts in a book or video: The Experience | Viewer's mind as a filter | Writer's Mind |Reader's Mind
• Jury Duty for written statements: The Experience | Viewer's Mind as a filter | Writer's Mind (Officer) | Reader's Mind (Lawyer) | Listener's Mind (Jurior) | Anyone listening to the Jury in deliberation.
• Oneness: The Experience

Importantly:

The experience you are having is unique to you, it is framed by you within your beliefs or values, referenced and given meaning by you, and created by you, mass detail is unconsciously stored by you to be referenced later, potentially emotionally bonded or referenced by you, brought into alignment by all the connections you've made in life, the energy of the experience has a unique quality, the timing when it happens during your life etc.

There is a lot of subtlety in experience, what you are currently generating to experience, and for why you are doing so. It is differently experienced in many ways, from person to person.

Edited August 13, 2024 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

Short version is there is no highest, no knowing, nothing aside from what is happening right now inside yourself that you are watching unfold. That doesn't mean dismiss things that come to mind, because that's part of the experience also.

[Ishanga]

4 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

This is perhaps a terminology misunderstanding. To "Know" as in a 'direct experience' is different than to "know" as a product of some knowledge acquisition through intellectual or other human manner of learning -  which MUST involve MEMORY.

The direct experience of God or the Absolute is an experience of Revelation that cannot be communicated via language and intellectual concepts. It is inherently "ineffable" (incapable of being expressed in words).

Because we are eternal and infinite, and what Is God is the very Source of our Being(ness) - far in the background of our Mind is the memory of our Source. HOWEVER when we have an experience of REVELATION or DIRECT KNOWING of GOD it can be associated to REMEMBERING (Memory) - BUT the Content is not like our human-memory but a LIVING PRESENCE (It is ALIVE NOW) - which is ETERNALLY with our self as our very own BEINGNESS.

Nicely put! 

Anything associated with Memory is not it, not God or Absolute!

Our Bodies and Mind and Genetics and cells, atom etc are all accumulations, or memory of sorts, that is a certain type of Intelligence, that allows Form and Physicality to exist, for Duality to exist, for Us to be here, and experience life this way and to play the game of Life so that Absolute/God can experience itself, otherwise how to Experience and Know, when in God Realm there is no Experience or way to know, it just is up there!

So within Us is this Absolute/God aspect that is our Fundamental nature, but we have to deal with this Body/Mind and Duality complex that is here, we have to strive and find out what it is that makes us what we are, its built into us..

When You see someone wanting to be more than what they are right now, via Power, Success, Recognition, Ambition, Drug use, Spirituality and so forth, that is Desire, Desire is Life in expressed form, it propels us forward to the eventual end we call Enlightenment, or Realization of our True Nature and Being...

[ICURBlessings]

23 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

Nicely put! 

Anything associated with Memory is not it, not God or Absolute!

Our Bodies and Mind and Genetics and cells, atom etc are all accumulations, or memory of sorts, that is a certain type of Intelligence, that allows Form and Physicality to exist, for Duality to exist, for Us to be here, and experience life this way and to play the game of Life so that Absolute/God can experience itself, otherwise how to Experience and Know, when in God Realm there is no Experience or way to know, it just is up there!

So within Us is this Absolute/God aspect that is our Fundamental nature, but we have to deal with this Body/Mind and Duality complex that is here, we have to strive and find out what it is that makes us what we are, its built into us..

When You see someone wanting to be more than what they are right now, via Power, Success, Recognition, Ambition, Drug use, Spirituality and so forth, that is Desire, Desire is Life in expressed form, it propels us forward to the eventual end we call Enlightenment, or Realization of our True Nature and Being...

Thank you Ishanga

Desire is the WILL functioning under a specific thought-system. The Desire is driven to achieve something BECAUSE of a 'promise' that the object of desire represent. This 'PROMISE' is just that and nothing more. This fact is related to the concept of the Devil as the 'great-deceiver' because it represent what drives a soul to seek but not to find - perpetual seeking - which is also related to the "wheel of reincarnation".

What all object-of-desire ultimately promises is 'Happiness' - which is WHAT all souls ultimately seek. To seek is to 'Want' and 'wanting' is always an expression of a state that is fittingly define as "NEED". The entire experience of Life on Earth is driven by 'NEEDS'. All biology is a mechanism fueled by NEEDS.

Every soul that experiences physicality and mortality is pulled in that drive to respond to NEEDS - and seek and seek - over and over; one life-cycle after another... this is UNTIL the soul REALIZES ...

[UnbornTao]

Direct experience is different from what is conventionally known as experience. What you describe—seeing someone, encountering something, going through an emotion, perceiving an object, or gaining “experience”—is the conventional notion of experience. Direct experience, though a misnomer when combined with “experience” (since all experience is indirect), refers to the most basic and raw encounter you can have with something through your senses, before any conceptual overlay is added.

For example, a direct experience of an object, such as an apple, involves experiencing the apple for itself. Within your experience of "apple", try to separate what is conceptually added from what is simply "there." This distinction is fundamental: an experience about the apple vs the apple itself. Value, meaning, association, past history, and preferences are about the object and how it relates to you. Once we sort this out, we can wonder: what's there for itself?

In addition to that: What is memory, and what is its purpose to begin with?

Edited August 14, 2024 by UnbornTao

[Ishanga]

3 minutes ago, ICURBlessings said:

Thank you Ishanga

Desire is the WILL functioning under a specific thought-system. The Desire is driven to achieve something BECAUSE of a 'promise' that the object of desire represent. This 'PROMISE' is just that and nothing more. This fact is related to the concept of the Devil as the 'great-deceiver' because it represent what drives a soul to seek but not to find - perpetual seeking - which is also related to the "wheel of reincarnation".

What all object-of-desire ultimately promises is 'Happiness' - which is WHAT all souls ultimately seek. To seek is to 'Want' and 'wanting' is always an expression of a state that is fittingly define as "NEED". The entire experience of Life on Earth is driven by 'NEEDS'. All biology is a mechanism fueled by NEEDS.

Every soul that experiences physicality and mortality is pulled in that drive to respond to NEEDS - and seek and seek - over and over; one life-cycle after another... this is UNTIL the soul REALIZES ...

Nicely put again:)

I am not sure Desire or Will is functioning under a thought system, as it is present in all that we are or what encompasses us as Human Beings, for eg, a baby will automatically want to suckle, needing the breast/nipple for breast milk for food to fulfill the hunger they naturally feel, this is not a thought process, its ingrained within the body, just take this to higher and higher dimensions of what we are and it manifest in similar ways via our other Bodily functions, Mind functions, Emotional functions and Energetic functions, its just there...

So Desire is akin to Life being Expressed, it is needed otherwise what is the point of it all.. Depression experienced in someone is when Desire is not there, the will to go on is very subsided and it reflects in many ways, this can be from the Mind, or in Reaction to a Situation or Genetic or Energetic or whatever but it can come up in ppls lives and is at a drastic rate in today's world because we are unconscious of our true nature, we look outside ourselves for Life when Life is within us and we are missing it...

[ICURBlessings]

Ishanga,

By "thought-system" I mean "Paradigm" - Sorry for assuming it would be understood as such.

i.e. You said "Our Bodies and Mind and Genetics and cells, atom etc are all accumulations, or memory of sorts, that is a certain type of Intelligence, that allows Form and Physicality to exist, for Duality to exist, for Us to be here, "

That 'Intelligence' is the expression of a Thought-System.

 

All experiences that are other than The Oneness Which is God which is Absolute are as a whole functioning from a thought-system. Duality is the fundamental Framework from which this thought-system emerges

Thought-System as a product of the Universal Mind not of the human brain!

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by ICURBlessings

[ICURBlessings]

35 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

What is memory and what is its purpose to begin with?

To a human memory appear to serve many purposes BUT ULTIMATLY its purpose is to perpetuate EVERYTHING that is within the continuum of Spacetime.

Memory is part of a mechanism where the CONTENT of the PASS is EXTENDED into the Future.

Genetic - the Genome is a type of Memory

Edited August 13, 2024 by ICURBlessings
to add more info

[James123]

No knowledge can pass from direct experience, including experience.