what is a woman ?

[Leo Gura]

@Forestluv You are a good teacher. 

[gettoefl]

16 hours ago, Talinn said:

 The transition process is fundamentally an internal process, and you should understand that before suggesting any reforms. A lot of people start the transitioning process in the closet by secretly cross-dressing in their rooms outside of the view of the parents, until they can move out. The child initiates the suggestion that they want to transition based on a calculation if it will help them , and the parent largely controls how much they can express it in public, and how much of their bodies they can change... It is a JOINT process...

So should it be the parent's choice to barge into their room and stop this transition from happening even if they do no medical interventions or do nothing yet with other people, in your view? You seem to say it's the parent's choice if a trans child can begin transitioning, that means they can barge into their rooms and look through their drawers and draw accurate conclusions? Transitioning begins with a thought and the parent can't control their kids thoughts. Parents have a duty to try to ensure their kids don't drive themselves over a bridge and harm their life, but they can't control their kids internal thoughts. Just because a kid began transitioning at age 15 in private and couldn't really begin in earnest until 18 doesn't mean the parent protected them, it just means that the parent was an obstacle in the way.

You're just drawing false conclusions about how transitioning works because you've never done it and can't imagine it.

with all things equal the thought

"a child should be allowed to express their own identity"

should be given greater weight than the thought

"parents have the right to overrule a child's expression of their own identity"

in my opinion

[Clarence]

8 hours ago, Davino said:

What is a woman?

How would it feel to be a woman and get blissfully penetrated by a man?

How would it feel to be pregnant and slowly create another life in my belly?

How would it feel to give birth, destroy my pussy and give sustenance via my titty milk?

I think these are important questions to contemplate for the masculine psyche. 

They are very primal questions (even more so as the last one is not formulated in a tactful manner) and they don't seem the most important to me. I think it would be more important for the male psyche to tap into a woman's overal way of being, feeling and thinking. Though that requires a very high level of intuition, sensitivity and integrity, as well as an effective capacity to truly listen to women and their feelings.
–

I think it won't ever be entirely possible for a man to fully step into a woman's shoes or for a woman to fully step into a man's shoes. It is extremely hard to do, even more so that all women and men are not identical at all in their own feminity and masculinity. There are very feminine women, but there are also very masculine woman. Even within cis women, feminity is a spectrum.

I think that feminity is another important marker to identify what a woman is in conjunction with sex organs, but that's not perfect either, because there are cis woman who are not very feminine, and cis men who are more feminine than certain cis women. Overall though, a woman tends to be more feminine than a man, leading them to wear make up or dress in a feminine way, for exemple, and leading them also to be more in touch with their feelings and emotions, being more sensitive than men in general.

In my opinion, the way a person feel inside is what matters most to determine a man or a woman, especially in cases where there is a lot of ambiguity. That doesn't define man and woman, but that is still an aspect to take into account in the attempt of defining those terms.

I think there cannot be one simple definition of what a woman or a man is. To me, it is a vague feeling or idea. It's a mix of perceptions, of how people, men and women, look from the outside, and of how I think they think and feel from the inside, which is influenced by my own history, personality, and by everything I've ever heard, seen and thought.

The clearest representation I have for what a man and a woman is, is a spectrum in which on one hand is the most stereotypical man one can think of (cis male body, cis male appearance and characteristics, cis male psyche), and on the other hand, the most stereotypical woman one can think (cis female body, cis female appearance and characteristics, cis female psyche).

And as we move toward the center of that spectrum, the simplified representation of what it means to be a man or a woman starts to blur; it ceases to be so simple. One could still be a woman, but lacking the stereotypical female appearance, psyche, or body, or any combination of these traits - up to the extent where one would start leaning more towards the center of the spectrum or toward the beginning of the male side.

There are so many humans on Earth, with so many differences in-between them, that it is mind-blowing to see that some people think it is easy and possible to divide them all into just two categories—two categories that should determine and define something extremely fundamental and core to their entire being.

[Snader]

19 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I think everyone has some type of "superpower" and I've often joked that my superpower is pretty much useless at a personal level. Where my mind wants to explore and dwell doesn't give me any personal gain. It doesn't help pay the rent, it doesn't help me advance my career, it doesn't help getting shit done and being productive. Yet the benefit include insights, expansions, realizations, wonder, awe, curiosity. Most of those I'm unable to express to others, so it gets quite lonely. . . I live in a small town and work with people, yet in a sense my mindspace is usually "alone in the woods".

 

19 hours ago, questionreality said:

I can totally relate, as I used to be a lot more abstract thinker myself in the past but decided that I didn't want to be "alone in the woods" as you say. 

So it's really a choice that one has to make - either to live alone in the woods or to be part of the society. 

 

Thanks for your conversation, it was an enjoyable read. I have something to ask you guys relating to the quotes above.

What thoughts do you have on integrating the two "sides" of life, the more personal and isolated (was it a superpower or features of developmental stage) and the more practical side (was it a social image or a career) in a way that the need for restricting or splitting oneself diminishes? 

To what extent do you think it is possible for example to have a money paying career in which you can use your gift of abstract thinking, wonder or curiosity, for example? If you don't mind sharing; what barriers do you see for that in your own life, considering society around you and your unique set of skills, experiences, personality, level of consciousness and general life situation (feel free to add other factors)?

 

Edited August 14 by Snader

[Forestluv]

Below are some of my thoughts. They are within the context of my experience and may have less value in other contexts.

4 hours ago, Snader said:

What thoughts do you have on integrating the two "sides" of life, the more personal and isolated (was it a superpower or features of developmental stage) and the more practical side (was it a social image or a career) in a way that the need for restricting or splitting oneself diminishes? 

How would begin by gaining depth of awareness / clarity on what those "sides" are. How can we integrate components if we aren't aware of what those components are? . . . From my experience and observations, most people are consciously unaware of how deeply entangled they are within a social mind. As well, most people are unaware of 'realms' that have some distance from that social mind. 

For example, imagine someone that engages most of their day with co-workers, family, friends, social media etc. Even when they aren't directly interacting socially, there is still social entanglement within the mind. Someone may want to get away and go for walk in nature, yet their mindspace is engaged with thoughts / feelings of their social system. Thoughts / feelings of interactions with co-workers, friends, family, partner, children etc.  They may have brief moments of freedom outside that social mind, yet that is just scratching the surface. 

Imo, this isn't easy to explore this since disengaging from social systems is difficult. I get three months off per year, and my mind engages in different spaces after disengaging from work for a couple months. As well, I've lived villages in central / south America for 1-3 month periods. I've gotten so disengaged that I'd forget what my previous "character life" was. Occasionally, a villager would ask "What do you do in life?" . . . it would take me a while to remember and put the story together - as if they were asking me about a movie I watched years ago. . . This goes much deeper than a simple realization that "I play a character in life". . . it's disengaging from that character and exploring new areas - new abilities, new ways to relate to reality and so forth. . . So I've gotten good exposure of those "sides" and have a clearer idea of how to integrate them. . . For example, the extended disengagement allowed to realize that I can sense energetics around me, that most people aren't consciously aware of because they are within that energetic system. They may simply have a vague idea of through their feelings.  . . Once aware, I was able to explore this deeper as a "sixth sense". Then, I was able to start integrating that sense into the classroom and individual students.

For me, becoming aware of, and observing, that social entanglement was important. Then I could make conscious decisions to disengage and could now notice when re-engagement entered. Getting distance over time was important. Also, psychedelics can also get distance. Not necessarily heavy doses. A light to moderate dose can allow for distance. Yet these can be compressed experiences that are harder to embody.

4 hours ago, Snader said:

To what extent do you think it is possible for example to have a money paying career in which you can use your gift of abstract thinking, wonder or curiosity, for example?

A very high extent, if someone is aware of their abilities / resonance, is open to opportunities and makes conscious decisions. This also assumes that it's an "average" situation. it's more complicated if someone is in a war zone, abusive environment, has serious cognitive / physical issues etc.

4 hours ago, Snader said:

If you don't mind sharing; what barriers do you see for that in your own life, considering society around you and your unique set of skills, experiences, personality, level of consciousness and general life situation (feel free to add other factors)?

A big barrier was social conditioning throughout my life that blocked discovery of abilities. For example, in elementary school I was in a grey area of whether to be placed into an "Advanced Learning Program". I was put in the program for one week. During one class, we had a mock court case and I was the judge. At one point, the prosecutor asked a witness if the defendant was "intelligent". I wasn't sure if I should overule or sustain the question, so I called both lawyers to my bench. They each gave their arguments - both of them seemed partially right, as well I struggled with what "intelligent" means. Contemplating different perspectives, partial truths and relativity of meaning is extraordinary for a grammar school child. From a neuroscience perspective, that type of abstract brain processing doesn't begin until years later and doesn't fully develop until around 24yrs of age. . . Rather than realizing this, the teacher got annoyed and said "Is it a valid question or not? Make a decision.". I was under social pressure to make a binary decision. I got super uncomfortable. .  .yet I wasn't aware at the time that one reason I was uncomfortable is because I was forced to make a binary decision. Either decision I made was partially wrong and I could say the word "overuled" or "sustained". The teacher then got very annoyed and put more pressure on me to make a binary decision. I almost had a nervous breakdown. . . That week, I was pulled from the Advanced Program and put back with the "regular kids". I was also labeled as a kid who "had potential, yet doesn't apply himself". Over and over, I was placed in situations geared toward concrete thinking and developed a self image that I wasn't "smart enough". . . I went on to pursue science as a career. I was super curious about learning, yet I also had a subconscious desire to proved to myself and others that I was "smart enough". I became an average PhD in an environment geared toward concrete thinking and logic. . . It wasn't until I was about 44 yrs old that I began discovering other forms of "intelligence" and my nature abilities.

Another big barrier was being socially conditioned that my work must make a contribution to society. If not, I'm self-centered and there is something wrong with me. So whenever I got curious about things that weren't contributing to society, I would become hyper self-critical and repress it. . . It wasn't until my 40s that I realized I only have a moderate desire to engage in activities that directly contributes to the lives of others / society. My stronger desire is to explore imagination, concepts, creation new experiences - regardless of whether they have a purpose at the personal or societal level. What gives me deep meaning is when I integrate the too - for example, having insights and passing those on to my students.

Another barrier are work constraints. I work as a science teacher and there are constraints being in a science department and within an academic institution.

In addition to realizing my abilities, I also found it helpful to realize what I'm not good at (and what I dislike). Because of my multi-perspectival / partial truth mindset, I am not a good decision-maker or manager. . . I've learned that I work best "behind the scenes" to make connections, rather than a leader. . . Also, I'm very creative in some ways, yet I lack innovative skills to manifest those ideas into actuality. For example, I have lots of creative ideas about how to create an integrated neuroscience program, yet I lack the innovative skills to make it happen. 

Edited August 14 by Forestluv

[Snader]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to give such a thorough answer. I really appreciate it.

Plenty of thoughts and few additional questions popped up and I kind of spit them out as they came.

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

For example, imagine someone that engages most of their day with co-workers, family, friends, social media etc. Even when they aren't directly interacting socially, there is still social entanglement within the mind. Someone may want to get away and go for walk in nature, yet their mindspace is engaged with thoughts / feelings of their social system. Thoughts / feelings of interactions with co-workers, friends, family, partner, children etc.  They may have brief moments of freedom outside that social mind, yet that is just scratching the surface.

Oh yeah, I've had times like that, where I've had to struggle to get myself back "in touch" with myself and reality. It's like the fumes of social life following you wherever you go. Following your example of walking in nature: even as a person who has always loved spending time in nature and has plenty of experience from nature's healing capabilities, the mind occupied by the social content and survival can have such a strong grip that fighting it at the moment is impossible, even if you have some intuition of awareness of what's going on.

Those moments have been common in times of big chance and chaos. Reflecting back, it comes down to the clearness of the sides as you say. The sides have been unclear, so there hasn't been possibility for disengagement.

 

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I get three months off per year, and my mind engages in different spaces after disengaging from work for a couple months. As well, I've lived villages in central / south America for 1-3 month periods. I've gotten so disengaged that I'd forget what my previous "character life" was. Occasionally, a villager would ask "What do you do in life?" . . . it would take me a while to remember and put the story together - as if they were asking me about a movie I watched years ago

Wow! I spend 3-5 days on a remote island 1-2 times per year. Those trips consist of contemplation and chilling in nature and usually a psychedelic trip with a moderate dose. After I come back home I often experience this moment when I confront something about my social life and it kind of snaps the system back on, after which it takes a while to get back on track of what's going on in my life. Like moving files from an old usb drive, I slowly gather the data that I had pretty much forgotten.

It's nothing too crazy, doesn't take long to be "up to date". I can only imagine what 3 months could do.

 

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

The teacher then got very annoyed and put more pressure on me to make a binary decision. I almost had a nervous breakdown. . . That week, I was pulled from the Advanced Program and put back with the "regular kids". I was also labeled as a kid who "had potential, yet doesn't apply himself".

Damn, such a waste. It's sad that these things are not recognized. That example tells a lot about the education system and the way in which society creates work force like cattle.

Are you pressured into making binary decisions in your current job? If yes, how do you manage with it?

 

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Another big barrier was being socially conditioned that my work must make a contribution to society. If not, I'm self-centered and there is something wrong with me. So whenever I got curious about things that weren't contributing to society, I would become hyper self-critical and repress it. . . It wasn't until my 40s that I realized I only have a moderate desire to engage in activities that directly contributes to the lives of others / society. My stronger desire is to explore imagination, concepts, creation new experiences - regardless of whether they have a purpose at the personal or societal level. What gives me deep meaning is when I integrate the too - for example, having insights and passing those on to my students.

It's funny how this elucidates the contrast between two environments in different developmental stages. From my teens to early adulthood I was mostly surrounded by stage orange people. As can be expected, the atmosphere was pretty individualistic and for example all school choices were made according to individualistic endeavors. Some of those people are still in my life and they question me as I've made changes from an individualistic career path to one that is more about contributing. Today I'm in GREEN-yellow environment which sounds a lot like the one you described.

Through my own development and mystical experiences I've learned the value of contribution and giving. I've engraved them into my value system so that I won't lose them in the moment of fear and pressure, as I intuit their power and the importance of lining ones' life with them. I started to become dogmatic, in a way that I couldn't allow myself any goals or purposes that weren't about improving the lives of others. Later I went through processes where I struggled with dark and depressing meaninglessness. Sorting that all out brought me to first acknowledge and then accept the fact that I don't need to do work that is directly improving peoples lives, in fact I realized I don't need to do a damn thing. After some time and integration I came to find purpose in pursuing career that suits my personal preferences and also fills the demands concerning morality and purpose.

 

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Another barrier are work constraints. I work as a science teacher and there are constraints being in a science department and within an academic institution.

There's probably plenty of factors, but could you possibly name some main points?

I ask this because I'm currently in a process of career change, pursuing an academic career, as I think I might've found a niche from the academic field that offers a great balance of benefits and compromises in areas that I've come to see important in terms of my long term development and general life quality. It is something that is also supporting my other endeavors for the far future. I'm asking this as a form of research while I still have some time to affect the education path, and because I feel like your perspective here would be unique.

 

[questionreality]

8 hours ago, Snader said:

What thoughts do you have on integrating the two "sides" of life, the more personal and isolated (was it a superpower or features of developmental stage) and the more practical side (was it a social image or a career) in a way that the need for restricting or splitting oneself diminishes? 

That's a very difficult one to balance imo. I went super abstract for some years as I was genuinely curious about many things(and used a ton of psychedelics as well during that time period). When I burned a lot of that through and got the fulfilment in that, I understood that I missed the social aspect and needed to integrate it, and kind of come out of that bubble. Now I find that whenever I need to go abstract, it is available, but now I enjoy relating to people a lot more, it's just more fun.

I am sure that they can be integrated, but I see it more as switching between the two - like diving into the water and then out of it. 

8 hours ago, Snader said:

 To what extent do you think it is possible for example to have a money paying career in which you can use your gift of abstract thinking, wonder or curiosity, for example? If you don't mind sharing; what barriers do you see for that in your own life, considering society around you and your unique set of skills, experiences, personality, level of consciousness and general life situation (feel free to add other factors)?

 

It is for sure possible - if you find a way to monetize your abstract skills. This will probably be not working for somebody, but creating something of your own, that you would find a way to monetize.

[questionreality]

4 hours ago, Forestluv said:

For example, imagine someone that engages most of their day with co-workers, family, friends, social media etc. Even when they aren't directly interacting socially, there is still social entanglement within the mind. Someone may want to get away and go for walk in nature, yet their mindspace is engaged with thoughts / feelings of their social system. Thoughts / feelings of interactions with co-workers, friends, family, partner, children etc.  They may have brief moments of freedom outside that social mind, yet that is just scratching the surface. 

 

Very great point!

This is why it also comes down to weather you are more of an extrovert, ambivert or an introvert imo - how much of social engagement does your well being needs?

I would imagine it would be a lot harder for an extrovert to be alone by themselves and be exploring abstract realms than it would be for an introvert for example.

[ici]

AI women are women

 

 

[Snader]

19 hours ago, questionreality said:

That's a very difficult one to balance imo. I went super abstract for some years as I was genuinely curious about many things(and used a ton of psychedelics as well during that time period). When I burned a lot of that through and got the fulfilment in that, I understood that I missed the social aspect and needed to integrate it, and kind of come out of that bubble. Now I find that whenever I need to go abstract, it is available, but now I enjoy relating to people a lot more, it's just more fun.

Interesting. Do you think that phase of curiosity and psychedelics has somehow affected your ability (in good or bad) to relate to other people and be social in general? 

[questionreality]

2 hours ago, Snader said:

Interesting. Do you think that phase of curiosity and psychedelics has somehow affected your ability (in good or bad) to relate to other people and be social in general? 

I would say both. It made it easier to understand the people and also to understand who I want to be connected with, but harder in a sense that the pool of people that I want to be connected with has shrunk.

During the phase it was much harder to be social, now that I am out of it it is not difficult at all and I find that I enjoy it.

Overall I would say for sure that it had a positive impact.

[Forestluv]

@Snader Thanks for sharing your experience and insights. I appreciate the introspection and curiosity.

On 8/14/2024 at 4:06 PM, Snader said:

Are you pressured into making binary decisions in your current job? If yes, how do you manage with it?

No. Making decisions is hard for me since I'm constantly looking at pros / cons, partial truths, different possibilities, different perspectives etc. . . I'm a terrible manager. . . I think my colleagues can sense this and don't put me in positions where I'm a decision-making leader. . . I contribute in other ways.

On 8/14/2024 at 4:06 PM, Snader said:

There's probably plenty of factors, but could you possibly name some main points?

I ask this because I'm currently in a process of career change, pursuing an academic career, as I think I might've found a niche from the academic field that offers a great balance of benefits and compromises in areas that I've come to see important in terms of my long term development and general life quality. It is something that is also supporting my other endeavors for the far future. I'm asking this as a form of research while I still have some time to affect the education path, and because I feel like your perspective here would be unique.

I'm actually quite satisfied with my career. I have a lot of autonomy and lots of space to create. . . 

A few thoughts on range and constraints:

-- Being in a science department, there are standard courses like Cell Biology, that have a history of content. As well, teachers have an obligation to teach students knowledge and skills that will be on graduate exams, graduate / medical schools and practical things in those careers. For core courses, there is generally a body of accepted content - I have flexibility in how I teach that as well as sprinkling in things such as life skills, memory etc. . . I have a lot more space in my upper-level courses to go bigger-picture and integrate. Yet my forms of integration is beyond integrating different disciplines within academia. I love all that stuff, yet I also want to bring in more that isn't standard academia. For example, I've brought in meditation exercises into my classes. This raised some eyebrows in my department, yet I explained to them the importance of self awareness, social awareness and meta-cognition in the bigger-picture of learning. . . I also have an exercise using Zener cards to integrate concepts like: direct experience, intuition, energetics, unique abilites as well as science components, such as statistical analysis of the data we gather. I got some pushback at first, yet I framed it with buzzwords like "hands-on", "experiential learning", "engagement" to teach statistical tests. Then my collogues thought it was brilliant (since I didn't believe in the "whoo, whoo" stuff. . . I'd also like to add things like shamanic breathing and chanting - yet having had the guts to yet (as well, most students are receptive). . . Lastly, I feel the need to hold back on explorations of consciousness. I feel comfortable speaking about things like lucid dreaming and flow states of consciousness, yet I still need to speak about psychedelics from a relatively shallow level. I've done over 150 trips and my level of understanding of psychedelics and various conscious states is equal to, or higher, than my level of science understanding. I'm one of the few people with a high level of expertise in both psychedelic/conscious states as well as science. One of few people that could integrate direct experience, psychological dynamics, mysticism, creativity, nonduality, neuroscience, genetics, evolution, social science, energetics, critical thinking, empathy and on and on. I can do this to some extent, yet I have to hold back.

-- I'm constrained with where students are at. . . In an environment like a spiritual retreat, nonduality lecture or concert - people go because they are interested, want to learn and want to participate. Yet in a classroom environment, most students don't fully want to be there. Many students have low attendance, show up late and are disengaged. The majority of Gen Z has an extremely short attention span and part of my job is being an entertainer to keep them engaged. And it's draining to constantly compete with their cell phones for attention. . . And it just takes a one "bad" student to create all sorts of problems, which can be an emotional drain. I spent months creating a First Year Seminar titled "SuperNormal" abilities. Unfortunately, one student was a sold narcissist that soured the energetics in the class and caused all sorts of problems. That one student ruined many aspects of the course. . . Lastly, many students do not have the capacity or interest in much of what I do. For example, not able / interested in things like introspection and mind expansion. Some students don't think abstractly and I have to constrain myself, such as my use of metaphors.

-- With that said, there are a small percentage of students that really connect with me and I have a big impact on them. A few students have unique skills of metacognition, systems thinking etc and felt like they never fit it. I'm the first one that can see this and "speak their language". Stuff they thought was a disorder, yet I get excited and say "That's a thing!!! I've known people in Zen Centers that spent years trying to attain that". . . They take every one of my classes, come to my office to chat about things that are "out there" that they can't speak to anyone else about. . . A couple years ago, I started a group called "Transcend and Integrate". It's a select group by invitation only for students with certain abilities. We meet in a secluded location and have a free flow conversation about things not discussed or revealed with "normal" people. . . For about 1% of my students, I have a deep life-changing impact on them - such as discovering core aspects of their nature / ability. . . This is so rewarding to me, that it balances out a lot of headaches.

-- When I started teaching, I wasn't aware of my "thing". If you know yours, I would be mindful of how that fits with the environment. For example, one of my core components is integration. I work at a liberal college that prides it's identity on "multidisciplinary". Yet it's at a very surface level. For example, "inter-disciplinary" to my colleagues and administrators are taking set of required courses in various disciplines. Yet psychology is in one building and just talks in a  psychology box, Religious studies is another building and speaks within a religion box, Biology in another building, etc. . . That is a surface level of integration. It would be like having a guitar player in one building, a piano player in another building, a drummer in another building and calling it an integrated jazz band. . . Deeper integration is having all the instruments playing together to yield emergent properties. . . Zooming Out and being contracted in an area has value, yet so does Zooming Out and synthesizing. I'm the only one that is really good at this in my department, which is good and bad. On the good side, I'm "that guy" my colleagues come to for questions and help. I've helped them create new course materials and to look at things from different perspectives. I like contributing in that way. 

 

On 8/14/2024 at 4:44 PM, questionreality said:

This is why it also comes down to weather you are more of an extrovert, ambivert or an introvert imo - how much of social engagement does your well being needs?

I would imagine it would be a lot harder for an extrovert to be alone by themselves and be exploring abstract realms than it would be for an introvert for example.

For sure. Here, I think Myers Briggs is useful. I'm on the extreme end of "introverted". As well, the "S" or "I" is also a big factor. "Sensing" is toward concrete thinking and what's actually present here and now. Things like construction work. . . "Intuitive" is toward internal abstraction and imagination of things that aren't physically present. Most people are "S". . . I'm on the extreme end of "I", which can make communication difficult. 

And also agree with being alone. . . During the covid isolation lockdowns, my extroverted friend struggled hardcore. Yet I loved it. I didn't have as many social obligations and I had more time to explore consciousness on my own without people thinking I was "anti-social".

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

. I've done over 150 trips and my level of understanding of psychedelics and various conscious states is equal to, or higher, than my level of science understanding. I'm one of the few people with a high level of expertise in both psychedelic/conscious states as well as science. One of few people that could integrate direct experience, psychological dynamics, mysticism, creativity, nonduality, neuroscience, genetics, evolution, social science, energetics, critical thinking, empathy and on and on. I can do this to some extent, yet I have to hold back.

Do you anticipate putting any of your work out into the public? E.g a book, online course etc.

[Forestluv]

…..

Edited August 16 by Forestluv

[Snader]

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

For example, I've brought in meditation exercises into my classes. This raised some eyebrows in my department, yet I explained to them the importance of self awareness, social awareness and meta-cognition in the bigger-picture of learning. . . I also have an exercise using Zener cards to integrate concepts like: direct experience, intuition, energetics, unique abilites as well as science components, such as statistical analysis of the data we gather. I got some pushback at first, yet I framed it with buzzwords like "hands-on", "experiential learning", "engagement" to teach statistical tests. Then my collogues thought it was brilliant (since I didn't believe in the "whoo, whoo" stuff. . . I'd also like to add things like shamanic breathing and chanting - yet having had the guts to yet (as well, most students are receptive). . .

That's very impressive. It must take plenty of courage and of course skill to pull that off in the limits of academic tolerance -- generally speaking. I've been to a lecture of this one very open-minded sociologist who constantly tried to take things to a deeper and more holistic sphere but clearly backed off as he noticed rolling eyes and received questions that he couldn't answer in a way that wouldn't make people roll their eyes even more. I put a little crumbs of outside the box thinking in my final essey and was glad to see that he recognized it in a positive way.

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I also have an exercise using Zener cards to integrate concepts like: direct experience, intuition, energetics, unique abilites as well as science components, such as statistical analysis of the data we gather.

I'm very curious how you actually do that. Wish I could attend those classes.

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I got some pushback at first, yet I framed it with buzzwords like "hands-on", "experiential learning", "engagement" to teach statistical tests.

I'm not a teacher, but I often try to open some of my relatively open-minded friends' minds and it's funny how I also need to present some ideas with such buzzwords just to lead them a bit deeper without compromising their openness. It's crazy how I can often feel the level of other persons' tolerance and sense how the level changes as I change the way I articulate. I hope to improve that skill for the future as I see myself doing teaching in one form or another.

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I'd also like to add things like shamanic breathing and chanting - yet having had the guts to yet (as well, most students are receptive)

Interesting. Anchoring that to something familiar like Wim Hoff for example, could make people welcome it with less prejudice.

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Lastly, I feel the need to hold back on explorations of consciousness. I feel comfortable speaking about things like lucid dreaming and flow states of consciousness, yet I still need to speak about psychedelics from a relatively shallow level. I've done over 150 trips and my level of understanding of psychedelics and various conscious states is equal to, or higher, than my level of science understanding. I'm one of the few people with a high level of expertise in both psychedelic/conscious states as well as science. One of few people that could integrate direct experience, psychological dynamics, mysticism, creativity, nonduality, neuroscience, genetics, evolution, social science, energetics, critical thinking, empathy and on and on. I can do this to some extent, yet I have to hold back.

I can only imagine how hard it might be to have that rare capability that you are restricted to use. I think it's also a special skill to understand that fact and hold back. Life keeps changing all the time and something that makes people's eyes roll today might be warmly welcomed in 10 years. Although for example Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert were bold and ready to take risks, I still think they didn't have that skill, which is understandable as they couldn't quite anticipate how people will react and how their works would be framed as. Now we know better and know to be more careful.

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

-- With that said, there are a small percentage of students that really connect with me and I have a big impact on them. A few students have unique skills of metacognition, systems thinking etc and felt like they never fit it. I'm the first one that can see this and "speak their language". Stuff they thought was a disorder, yet I get excited and say "That's a thing!!! I've known people in Zen Centers that spent years trying to attain that". . . They take every one of my classes, come to my office to chat about things that are "out there" that they can't speak to anyone else about. . . A couple years ago, I started a group called "Transcend and Integrate". It's a select group by invitation only for students with certain abilities. We meet in a secluded location and have a free flow conversation about things not discussed or revealed with "normal" people. . . For about 1% of my students, I have a deep life-changing impact on them - such as discovering core aspects of their nature / ability. . . This is so rewarding to me, that it balances out a lot of headaches.

That's at the core of what I expected to hear (at best) when I originally asked you about integrating the two "sides" of life. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by what you've said it sound to me like that is the pinnacle or at least one of the sweetest fruits that have resulted from the integration of your career (the social mind) and your personal abilities and tendencies (the side of you alone in the forest).

The fact that you bring your talent into an environment where it's not generally expected to be effective, leading to recognition of other people's hidden or suppressed talents, is astonishing to me. It's also soothing and inspiring to hear that there is room (or that room can be made) for deeper inquiry even in an academic setting.

11 hours ago, Forestluv said:

-- When I started teaching, I wasn't aware of my "thing". If you know yours, I would be mindful of how that fits with the environment. For example, one of my core components is integration. I work at a liberal college that prides it's identity on "multidisciplinary". Yet it's at a very surface level. For example, "inter-disciplinary" to my colleagues and administrators are taking set of required courses in various disciplines. Yet psychology is in one building and just talks in a  psychology box, Religious studies is another building and speaks within a religion box, Biology in another building, etc. . . That is a surface level of integration. It would be like having a guitar player in one building, a piano player in another building, a drummer in another building and calling it an integrated jazz band. . . Deeper integration is having all the instruments playing together to yield emergent properties. . . Zooming Out and being contracted in an area has value, yet so does Zooming Out and synthesizing. I'm the only one that is really good at this in my department, which is good and bad. On the good side, I'm "that guy" my colleagues come to for questions and help. I've helped them create new course materials and to look at things from different perspectives. I like contributing in that way. 

My university -- especially my faculty -- also has this strong marketing of multidisciplinarity. It's mostly like you described: there is a possibility to choose plenty of courses from many other faculties. Some teachers seem to be seriously trying to integrate that idea into their teaching, while the mass courses are still far from that.

Anyway in the discipline I'm in there is this mutual understanding that we cannot come to any absolute truths or all-explaining explanations. In the research it is always emphasized how the output is only explaining a little part of the phenomenon while more truthful picture requires a broader range of perspectives and methods that need to be integrated together. That's what I really like. 

Edited August 16 by Snader

[gettoefl]

brilliant and inspiring @Forestluv and thanks all for the questions and discussion 

[Forestluv]

I don't want to derail this thread, so I started a journal exploring dynamics of transcending and integrating.

 

Edited August 16 by Leo Gura