what is a woman ?

[questionreality]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You, on other hand, want to tell 350 million people what is best for them.

Where did you get that from? Like, we are reading the same thread here?

Never did I say that parent's shouldn't have the ability to decide weather their kids could transition or not. 

 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, questionreality said:

Where did you get that from? Like, we are reading the same thread here?

Never did I say that parent's shouldn't have the ability to decide weather their kids could transition or not. 

Your position was that you didn't want kids to receive any transition treatment.

[questionreality]

55 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I'd say that's true in one context. It's fair to say that a mind cannot be "fluent" in yellow because of yellow's fluidity. A language is a structured set of rules and meanings - yellow is not. As stated above, yellow's fluidity involves abstraction, subjectivity and relativity that is not bound to a structured set of rules like within a language.

So here is one of the components of a Yellow mindspace: it's fair to say Yellow cognition is NOT like fluency in a language. It's ALSO fair to say that Yellow cognition IS like fluency in a language. A Yellow mindset is very good at comparing (similarities) and contrasting (differences). It can also transcend apparent paradoxes since it can see truths within multiple perspectives. In this case, seeing that Yellow cognition is both not like fluency in a language AND like fluency in a language.  (And Yellow seeing this within Yellow is a form of metacognition, also a component of Yellow).

Also, I would point to a distinction between speaking of something and speaking within something. We can speak of abstraction and relative, yet that is not necessarily utilizing abstraction and relativity within the ideas. We can define what abstraction "IS". Yet that is distinct from expressing abstraction abstractly. It would be like someone defining a piano, yet not actually playing a piano. If an alien asked "what is a piano?". We could define / describe all the components of a piano - that is one context. Or, someone could simply sit down and start playing the piano. BOTH are valid descriptions / expressions of a piano, yet they also have distinctions.

Again, I'm not suggesting abstraction has more or less value than concrete thinking. Both have advantages and disadvantages. My mindspace is based within forms of abstraction, which grants me abilities - yet it causes all sorts of problematic challenges for me in a practical sense. About 90% of people are primarily concrete thinkers that default to mindsets of "true or false", "agree or disagree" and they subconsciously define what a thing "is". That can have practical value, yet my mind doesn't work like that at all. It's very challenging for me to communicate with 90% of the people in society. For me, concrete thinking takes a lot of work. I also find it boring and frustrating. It feels like I'm trapped within a cage.

Relative to this thread: we could try to create a concrete definition of what a woman "is". A concrete definition would point to physcial aspects such as genitalia and chromosomes. This could have practical value in society, yet it's also limited. There are also aspects that aren't concrete. This thread is interesting to me as I observe abstract ideas trying to be communicated to concrete mindsets. 

 

I meant that what you perceive as "yellow" is relative, abstract, and subjective. So what you may perceive as "yellow", someone else may perceive as something else and vice versa.

So your whole idea of what is yellow, and how one operates in it, is quite abstract and subjective to begin with.

Would you say that yellow is fluid in a sense that it is able to see truths in multiple perspectives, and also doesn't hold a rigid opinion on a particular thing? And at the same time is detached from position, because of it's fluidity? 

Regarding this thread: That was exactly my argument. When we clearly define what a woman is, it gives society a lot more practical value, especially to society that is no near evolved towards yellow. 

And for me, if I want to live in a society and not alone in the woods, practical mindset clearly has more value than abstract one.

Edited August 13 by questionreality

[questionreality]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your position was that you didn't want kids to receive any transition treatment.

My position was that I don't believe that kids should be making that decision, due to such young age.

And that this idea should not be promoted and popularized.

If their parents think it is best for them and are willing to take that responsibility, then obviously it is fine.

I was not talking about placing a ban on transition treatment - don't confuse me with conservatives.

When you mentioned that the right does not want to provide the free therapy for kids, my idea was to perhaps have a compromise - have them get free therapy until they are adults, and then allow them to make that decision to transition after they turn 18 or w/e the consensus would be. This was just an idea and I personally think that it would actually work.

Edited August 13 by questionreality

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, questionreality said:

If their parents think it is best for them and are willing to take that responsibility, then obviously it is fine.

That's mostly what happens now.

It's not like a kid is paying for his own penis surgery in secret.

[Talinn]

32 minutes ago, questionreality said:

My position was that I don't believe that kids should be making that decision, due to such young age.

And that this idea should not be promoted and popularized.

If their parents think it is best for them and are willing to take that responsibility, then obviously it is fine.

I was not talking about placing a ban on transition treatment - don't confuse me with conservatives.

When you mentioned that the right does not want to provide the free therapy for kids, my idea was to perhaps have a compromise - have them get free therapy until they are adults, and then allow them to make that decision to transition after they turn 18 or w/e the consensus would be. This was just an idea and I personally think that it would actually work.

So it's fine for Jazz Jennings to have started her 13-14 year transition process at ages 4-5? As I've alluded to, transition is a multi-step process over a lengthy period of time, and you usually start the process by wearing cross-gender clothes. You can't legislate what parents allow children to do in their own homes, and if they're clearly ecstatic that they can wear feminine or masculine clothes, should they not be allowed to begin hormones at age 13 or 14 if they're one of these select clear cut cases?

Edited August 13 by Talinn

[questionreality]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's mostly what happens now.

It's not like a kid is paying for his own penis surgery in secret.

Except that's not how it works a lot of the time in practice, especially in US.

Sometimes a kid tells the parent that he wants to transition, and the parent just obliges, and goes with whatever the kid wants, without thinking twice.

Take even a guy like Elon Musk, who just went along with it and now regrets it.

This is why this shit should not be promoted or popularized - as kids can be easily influenced at a young age, and this is where conservatives have a valid point imo.

Some kind of protections would need to be also put in place - so that a parent understands that they bear full responsibility and ultimately it is their choice, not the kid's.

Edited August 13 by questionreality

[Schizophonia]

The question of existance of life.

[Something Funny]

9 minutes ago, questionreality said:

Take even a guy like Elon Musk, who just went along with it and now regrets it.

But who cares if Elon Musk regrets it or not. What's important is if his kid regrets it or not. And they don't. They seem quite happy.

[Talinn]

Sometimes a kid tells the parent that he wants to transition, and the parent just verbally harasses them, takes away their possessions, pulls them out of a school if applicable, and tells them to never mention it again. Which is why a lot of trans people don't even tell their parents until they can move out. I hope we don't have to go in circles about this again. Where is the acknowledgement of this happening and this being an obstacle to kids transitioning?

It was Elon's job as a parent to read what was in front of his face before signing. There's  a good chance he signed it while he was replying to a work email. His comment is so disingenuous to the medical profession.

Also who cares if the parent is unhappy you transitioned. It's your life and it's not your job to please your parents if it costs you your soul and your happiness. There's no evidence that the person transitioning here regretted anything so what's the problem?

We are going in circles far too much so I hope this makes sense.

[Something Funny]

@Talinn true, I would have never told my parents that I want to transition. Or even that I am gay, lol.

This is definitely an issue for many people

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, questionreality said:

I meant that what you perceive as "yellow" is relative, abstract, and subjective. So what you may perceive as "yellow", someone else may perceive as something else and vice versa.

So your whole idea of what is yellow, and how one operates in it, is quite abstract and subjective to begin with.

Yea, now you are entering my mind world. . . This gets into a balance of form, formless and open-mindedness. If I had a mindset of "This perception of 'yellow' is correct", it hyper structured and becomes limited. On the other end, a mindset of "anything can be 'yellow' it's all relative" is hyper fluid and also becomes limted. Yet both have value and I kind flip back-and-forth (and in-between).

From a more concrete perspective, we could ask "What is 'respect'?". Any single definition we create is too limited, since it doesn't account for relativity. Somes cultures may consider something disrespectful, while another country does not. . . Yet we could also get hyper fluid and say "Respect is anything a person says it is", yet then Respect could be a ham sandwich. . . 

In regards to stage yellow, it's much easier to say what it's not than what it is. For example, stage yellow cognition is not restricted to binary "either / or" thinking. Yet precisely defining something like the relativity within yellow is much harder to describe. Whenever I say "yellow is 'xyz'", I do so to communicate, yet I don't hold the idea rigidly.

46 minutes ago, questionreality said:

Would you say that yellow is fluid in a sense that it is able to see truths in multiple perspectives, and also doesn't hold a rigid opinion on a particular thing? And at the same time is detached from position, because of it's fluidity? 

Yes, I would consider that one component of the yellow category, as well as "Tier 2". I'd say it's a necessary component, yet there are different degrees. When I put my mind to it, I can do what you describe really well, which opens some doors and closes some doors. Yet I've also observed minds I would consider 'yellow', that are stronger in other areas. For example, someone very skilled in systems thinking could create a model of climate change that integrates history, chemistry, geography, biology and social systems. Yet they could be relatively rigid and attached to their model. So they would be really strong in one area of 'yellow' and weaker in another area. 

57 minutes ago, questionreality said:

When we clearly define what a woman is, it gives society a lot more practical value, especially to society that is no near involved towards yellow. 

And for me, if I want to live in a society and not alone in the woods, practical mindset clearly has more value than abstract one.

From a personal / societal perspective, I'd say there is a lot of truth to that. . . I think everyone has some type of "superpower" and I've often joked that my superpower is pretty much useless at a personal level. Where my mind wants to explore and dwell doesn't give me any personal gain. It doesn't help pay the rent, it doesn't help me advance my career, it doesn't help getting shit done and being productive. Yet the benefit include insights, expansions, realizations, wonder, awe, curiosity. Most of those I'm unable to express to others, so it gets quite lonely. . . I live in a small town and work with people, yet in a sense my mindspace is usually "alone in the woods".

Regarding this thread, I would say 90% of society leads toward concrete thinking and that needs to be given a lot of weight when designing policies. For example, what is practical toward a relatively normal functioning society? . . . The society we have in 2024, not 2124. Personally, my mind defaults to various possibilities and idealism, rather than realism. . . . I'm good at being diplomatic, yet I suck at restricting ideas, making decisions and implementing decisions. 

 

[Talinn]

20 minutes ago, questionreality said:

Some kind of protections would need to be also put in place - so that a parent understands that they bear full responsibility and ultimately it is their choice, not the kid's.

 The transition process is fundamentally an internal process, and you should understand that before suggesting any reforms. A lot of people start the transitioning process in the closet by secretly cross-dressing in their rooms outside of the view of the parents, until they can move out. The child initiates the suggestion that they want to transition based on a calculation if it will help them , and the parent largely controls how much they can express it in public, and how much of their bodies they can change... It is a JOINT process...

So should it be the parent's choice to barge into their room and stop this transition from happening even if they do no medical interventions or do nothing yet with other people, in your view? You seem to say it's the parent's choice if a trans child can begin transitioning, that means they can barge into their rooms and look through their drawers and draw accurate conclusions? Transitioning begins with a thought and the parent can't control their kids thoughts. Parents have a duty to try to ensure their kids don't drive themselves over a bridge and harm their life, but they can't control their kids internal thoughts. Just because a kid began transitioning at age 15 in private and couldn't really begin in earnest until 18 doesn't mean the parent protected them, it just means that the parent was an obstacle in the way.

You're just drawing false conclusions about how transitioning works because you've never done it and can't imagine it.

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, questionreality said:

Sometimes a kid tells the parent that he wants to transition, and the parent just obliges, and goes with whatever the kid wants, without thinking twice.

Could happen, but you can't avoid parental duty in this case. Parents could err in either direction. And mostly parents err in the direction of demonizing their children because the parents are closedminded and brainwashed with right-wing transphobia.

I'm all for a significant therapy requirement prior to surgery being allowed. This would be a good safeguard. But this will not appease right-wingers who oppose trans on existential dogmatic grounds.

Edited August 13 by Leo Gura

[Talinn]

24 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Talinn true, I would have never told my parents that I want to transition. Or even that I am gay, lol.

This is definitely an issue for many people

I don't talk much to my family, but even though they nominally are respectful to me, they're still Trump supporters. So it's kind of irrelevant. I went to a family dinner in what's been forever, and they complained about transgenders in the Olympics and called them men, maybe without realizing, I don't know. They say , "well you have a genetic disorder, you're different". Shouldn't have gone.

The rest of the trans people though without a genetic hormone disorder, they're all the "real bad" trans people. The mental gymnastics these people pull, truly hopeless.

[questionreality]

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Yea, now you are entering my mind world. . . This gets into a balance of form, formless and open-mindedness. If I had a mindset of "This perception of 'yellow' is correct", it hyper structured and becomes limited. On the other end, a mindset of "anything can be 'yellow' it's all relative" is hyper fluid and also becomes limted. Yet both have value and I kind flip back-and-forth (and in-between).

From a more concrete perspective, we could ask "What is 'respect'?". Any single definition we create is too limited, since it doesn't account for relativity. Somes cultures may consider something disrespectful, while another country does not. . . Yet we could also get hyper fluid and say "Respect is anything a person says it is", yet then Respect could be a ham sandwich. . . 

In regards to stage yellow, it's much easier to say what it's not than what it is. For example, stage yellow cognition is not restricted to binary "either / or" thinking. Yet precisely defining something like the relativity within yellow is much harder to describe. Whenever I say "yellow is 'xyz'", I do so to communicate, yet I don't hold the idea rigidly.

 

Do you find it difficult in communicating with people when they perceive your ideas to be rigid, when they are clearly not? I do find that sometimes to be an issue for me.

Other than that, I totally understand now what you mean.

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

From a personal / societal perspective, I'd say there is a lot of truth to that. . . I think everyone has some type of "superpower" and I've often joked that my superpower is pretty much useless at a personal level. Where my mind wants to explore and dwell doesn't give me any personal gain. It doesn't help pay the rent, it doesn't help me advance my career, it doesn't help getting shit done and being productive. Yet the benefit include insights, expansions, realizations, wonder, awe, curiosity. Most of those I'm unable to express to others, so it gets quite lonely. . . I live in a small town and work with people, yet in a sense my mindspace is usually "alone in the woods".

I can totally relate, as I used to be a lot more abstract thinker myself in the past but decided that I didn't want to be "alone in the woods" as you say. 

So it's really a choice that one has to make - either to live alone in the woods or to be part of the society. 

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Regarding this thread, I would say 90% of society leads toward concrete thinking and that needs to be given a lot of weight when designing policies. For example, what is practical toward a relatively normal functioning society? . . . The society we have in 2024, not 2124. Personally, my mind defaults to various possibilities and idealism, rather than realism. . . . I'm good at being diplomatic, yet I suck at restricting ideas, making decisions and implementing decisions. 

 

Very good point and this is why politics is such a difficult field to navigate. It requires a lot of sacrifice and even the best choices will have some downsides.

 

 

 

 

 

[Something Funny]

@Talinn well, at least they sound kind of okay with you.

I wouldn't tell my parents that I am trans or gay because I am not suicidal

I am lucky that I was born straight, ngl.

[Nemra]

@Something Funny

Being LGBTQ+ brings you closer to truth. 

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Nemra said:

Being LGBTQ+ brings you closer to truth. 

That's far from true.

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura

You misread me. I didn't mean that some identities are inherently closer and others are not.

I meant that you see people's beliefs and reactions early on, although it's quite painful and traumatic.

Edited August 13 by Nemra