what is a woman ?

[questionreality]

52 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@questionreality

From where did you get the biology and the basic fundamentals, may I ask?

From where did you get how to count? From where did you learn what is water, what is air, what is a tree, etc?

[Nemra]

@questionreality

Good questions.

I wasn't trying to shut you up.

You were writing as if biology has always been obvious, and it's been the same for decades.

For example, what you know about numbers is different than what you know about them today.

[questionreality]

People who claim that it is just a construct lack wisdom, and responsibility when it comes to this matter imo.

If what you call "male" and "female" are just constructs, then so is a "you", "mother", "father" , "friends", "family", and this entire thing that you call life/universe.

How do you see the society functioning, and living in practical sense, if you would totally deconstruct everything?  

It may make sense to you to mentally theorize, mentally masturbate, and philosophize on these matters on a forum - but in real life this leads to a lot of problems, and ultimately to a huge dysfunction. 

 @Leo Gura You gave shit to Nahm for being too "insane" in his rhetoric, of conflating absolute vs relative domains and how he even in your communication with you wrote that there is no "you".

Now try to imagine how your rhetoric of it's just a construct, etc would sound like to many other people? Can you see some similarities in these scenarios? 

 

[Scholar]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Think about this:

How many bits of DNA would I have to change about you to turn you into the opposite sex, or a third sex? And then realize that will be an arbitrary number and could be done in many different ways and does not need to conform to any one chromosome configuration.

Think about this:

If it turned out DNA didn't exist and it was all a big illusion and actually the body is just smooth spirit-matter that has no processes other than shaping itself to function itself the way it does.

Literally nothing about our ideas of what women and men are would change.

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

How did you know what a woman was before you learned biology?

Babies instinctually know the difference between men and women.

[Nemra]

 

34 minutes ago, questionreality said:

It may make sense to you to mentally theorize, mentally masturbate, and philosophize on these matters on a forum - but in real life this leads to a lot of problems, and ultimately to a huge dysfunction

Maybe people need to think a bit and not confuse mental masturbation with thinking/contemplating.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, questionreality said:

Now try to imagine how your rhetoric of it's just a construct, etc would sound like to many other people? Can you see some similarities in these scenarios? 

I understand how simpletons see it, but my job is to teach people how to reach construct-awareness.

I am not a political culture warrior, I teach humans how to attain the highest stages of cogntive development.

You simply can't make sense of reality if you believe that man/woman is some objective fact that exists in nature. That's why I bring up this issue.

Edited August 12 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

The real answer to this question is... 'Who cares? It doesn't impact your life personally. Let people live their lives in a way that feels good to them if it isn't hurting anyone.'

Otherwise, we can get into the distinctions between sex and gender... and how those things interact with and inform social constructs. Really, in terms of the words man and woman... it's more of a socially constructed signifier that gets projected onto the genetic/phenotype of billions of human beings.

But ultimately... stop trying to ask "gotcha" questions to invalidate someone's identity and personal sovereignty.

[Talinn]

2 hours ago, Consept said:

I think there are issues on both sides in the common discourse, in basic terms one side says a trans-woman is a woman and the other says its not a woman, lets call them left and right. 

The left side seems to not acknowledge that biologically a person born with a male body that transitions or identifies as a female, is biologically male. I dont see the issue with saying this person is a trans-woman which is distinct from a cis-woman because the experience and the biology is very different, however there are certain things that group them together as women. 

On the right they dont seem to be able to acknowledge that you can be born with a different gender, psychologically to your biological body. This is something that has always existed. If they could bend on this point then there isnt really an argument to be had on either side. 

In reality this should have very little impact on society, the only things that are slight sticking points are how do we categorise sports and how do we navigate gendered spaces like public bathrooms?

With sports it wouldnt be hard to put in place if you were born male you shouldnt be allowed to compete in womens sports. This may feel unfair to trans people but the advantage is just too much. But it is unfortunate that they might not be able to compete where they feel comfortable. THe only options for this is having a trans league or competing with cis-males. What i would liken it to is being born with a disability where you maybe really competitive but physically you cant compete at the top level. This will happen in the future with prosthetics, Pistorius, before his off the rails incident, ran the 400m at the olympics with 2 prosthetics blade runners instead of legs, no one really questioned it at the time and he didnt win but it could be seen as an advantage because he wont get the same injuries, he wont have lactic acid build up, so in theory this could be advantage and maybe an advantage in the future with further development, so i dont think that would be fair for him to compete with non-disabled athletes, this is the same for trans competitors. 

The bathroom issue seems to be a logistic one, there are many places with unisex bathrooms, or where you just have the cubicle. I also think some self awareness could be helpful, like if they are female passing it makes more sense for them to use a female bathroom because it may make males uncomfortable if they use a male one. If theyre not really female passing, then i guess using the male one makes more sense but that is a bit of a tricky one granted.

 

I think few people want to transition to a "trans-woman" which, for the majority of people is code or cipher for a lesser kind of woman, or even worse, a mentally confused man. (Some people are capable of some nuance to the extent where this label would be fine, but they're in the minority.) If you bake a batch of cookies, you don't eat half baked cookies, and if you transition, you don't want half-baked results. That's why I don't tell anyone I'm trans except online, because to too many people you're just a half-baked woman.

Sports -- I've heard different standards brought up. And everyone is different.  I heard of some swimmers' association say that you can't compete if you had finished male's puberty.  So what if I had finished male puberty 30, 40, 50 , or is 60% too much? I don't know what percentage of it I completed, but I have Kallmann Syndrome and I took testosterone to start it when I was 17, stopped after a little while , then switched to estrogen.  I did grow some after taking some testosterone so suppose I tried to compete.

There would probably be bickering to say I did complete male puberty, that I undersold how much I took testosterone. In reality it's obscure & hypothetical how much male puberty I did complete, and this is just one of the many examples of how obscure and arbitrary this whole debate can get. You can take it on a case by case basis, but of course on the internet facts always get distorted, and then when you hear a crazy absurd case, that will get all the attention on the internet while all the other trans athletes that compete relatively fairly and normally get a shoe in the face because of that absurd case.

Teaching about transgenders shouldn't probably be done in schools. It's well intentioned but probably only backfires, leading to more social contagion of the idea (which is a problem, though likely exaggerated by the right), and it leads the right to go ballistic that they're brainwashing people, which just makes people loathe us more. Also practically speaking being "prideful" about your trans status is only useful in the first stage to give you a confidence boost to complete the transition, or if you're unable to "pass" as a woman in most or all situations, after that it's useless, so the schools in a few instances celebrating pride is just not pragmatic in my opinion. Because outside of these two situations, "pride" is mostly useless and you try to forget you're trans as much as possible because you're just happier if you're really good at bullshitting people about this and hey I'm honest about that.

[Bobby_2021]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I understand how simpletons see it, but my job is to teach people how reach construct-awareness.

I am not a political culture warrior, I teach humans how to attain the highest stages of cogntive development.

You simply can't make sense of reality if you believe that man/woman is some objective fact that exists in nature.

If you go far enough in the deconstruction route then you will have to believe that even Kamala Harris doesn't exist in reality and that Kamala isn't an objective fact of reality.

The gender deconstruction logic can be applied to anything and everything and you will end up nowhere. It's a dead end void. 

The whole reason you are interested in gender deconstruction gymnastics is because some dude wanted to be treated like a woman and it turned iut to be a political movement. He/She probably didn't understand any of this philosophical gymnastics. 

If there was no political movement, none of us would be talking about it since we all know what men and women are. 

I can start a new political movement on a sect of population identifying as an apache attack helicopters and you could apply the same deconstruction logic here as well. 

At the end of the day, we can agree to treat each other with respect. 

But I can't allow bending of Truth with weird mental gymnastics. This will lead to collapse of society if left unmitigated.

[questionreality]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I understand how simpletons see it, but my job is to teach people how reach construct-awareness.

I am not a political culture warrior, I teach humans how to attain the highest stages of cogntive development.

Your ideas are catered to a very niche audience, not to mention that you became even more niche over the last few years (many of us are not into your alien consciousness/solipsism).

Your ideas will not be relatable to 99% of people, and you will sound like Nahm to them, so what are you really going to accomplish?

Knowledge without wisdom is very dangerous, and you well know it.

I don't think that pushing the narrative that male/female are just constructs to masses is a good idea, and it will not in any way improve the life for the majority.

 

[questionreality]

1 minute ago, Bobby_2021 said:

If you go far enough in the deconstruction route then you will have to believe that even Kamala Harris doesn't exist in reality and that Kamala isn't an objective fact of reality.

The gender deconstruction logic can be applied to anything and everything and you will end up nowhere. It's a dead end void. 

The whole reason you are interested in gender deconstruction gymnastics is because some dude wanted to be treated like a woman and it turned iut to be a political movement. He/She probably didn't understand any of this philosophical gymnastics. 

If there was no political movement, none of us would be talking about it since we all know what men and women are. 

I can start a new political movement on a sect of population identifying as an apache attack helicopters and you could apply the same deconstruction logic here as well. 

At the end of the day, we can agree to treat each other with respect. 

But I can't allow bending of Truth with weird mental gymnastics. This will lead to collapse of society if left unmitigated.

Very well said, couldn't have said it any better!

[Talinn]

1 minute ago, questionreality said:

Your ideas are catered to a very niche audience, not to mention that you became even more niche over the last few years (many of us are not into your alien consciousness/solipsism).

Your ideas will not be relatable to 99% of people, and you will sound like Nahm to them, so what are you really going to accomplish?

Knowledge without wisdom is very dangerous, and you well know it.

I don't think that pushing the narrative that male/female are just constructs to masses is a good idea, and it will not in any way improve the life for the majority.

 

He didn't say anything about preaching his ideas about gender to the masses. I'm fairly sure he's only referring to the situation where youre alone in your room thinking about gender, as it relates to personal development.

Why do you always think we're trying to convert everyone? I don't actually go to elementary schools to convert anyone to be trans, no matter how many times the right says I do.

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The whole reason you are interested in gender deconstruction gymnastics is because some dude wanted to be treated like a woman and it turned iut to be a political movement.

That shows a lack of understanding of intersex people and people suffering from gender dysphoria. The ones who politicized this issue so much were people like you who have zero empathy or understanding of what it's like to have gender dysphoria.

When your whole idea of women is tits and vagina, you have no mental capacity to understand complex phenomena like intersex or gender dysphoria.

Edited August 12 by Leo Gura

[gettoefl]

46 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The real answer to this question is... 'Who cares? It doesn't impact your life personally. Let people live their lives in a way that feels good to them if it isn't hurting anyone.'

Otherwise, we can get into the distinctions between sex and gender... and how those things interact with and inform social constructs. Really, in terms of the words man and woman... it's more of a socially constructed signifier that gets projected onto the genetic/phenotype of billions of human beings.

But ultimately... stop trying to ask "gotcha" questions to invalidate someone's identity and personal sovereignty.

fine and dandy but when i have no argument and want to impose my will all i need say is

sorry but on this i need to protect my kids and so a woman is who i and my tradition says she is

sorry but i will die for my kids if i have to

[questionreality]

24 minutes ago, Talinn said:

He didn't say anything about preaching his ideas about gender to the masses. I'm fairly sure he's only referring to the situation where youre alone in your room thinking about gender, as it relates to personal development.

Why do you always think we're trying to convert everyone? I don't actually go to elementary schools to convert anyone to be trans, no matter how many times the right says I do.

If this was true, there wouldn't be such a huge backlash. Pretending that this ideology is not being pushed downs people's throats is just plain dishonest.

And again, you make it sound like only the people on the right have an issue with it, which cannot be further from the truth.

There are many more than you think who are on the left, who do not agree with these woke ideas.

 

 

[gettoefl]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That shows a lack of understanding of intersex people and people suffering from gender dysphoria. The ones who politicized this issue so much were people like you who have zero empathy or understanding of what it's like to have gender dysphoria.

When your whole idea of women is tits and vagina, you have no mental capacity to understand complex phenomena like intersex or gender dysphoria.

yes meet my needs and my standards or gtfo of my world

my truth is the truth

better get used to it

[Nemra]

3 minutes ago, nuwu said:

since when are you empathetic, or why are you pretending to be

A rule of thumb:

If you think you know Leo, think again. 😁

[questionreality]

3 minutes ago, Nemra said:

A rule of thumb:

If you think you know Leo, think again. 😁

Actually, he almost never shows empathy and his behavior/attitude actually shows totally otherwise.

A person who displays so frequently so much arrogance/ego has a low amount of empathy to begin with.

Edited August 12 by questionreality

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, nuwu said:

since when are you empathetic, or why are you pretending to be

My empathy is in helping your mind not fall into self-deception.

If you don't understand that, you missed everything I ever did.

Edited August 12 by Leo Gura