Subcutaneous ROA Information

[you too]

I’m interested in information on the SC (subcutaneous) ROA (route of administration) for psychedelic compounds. Namely, 5-MeO-DMT and DPT. Following the advice of @What Am I and @bambi as well as my own research, I have a decent understanding of sanitary preparation methods, risks involved as well as injection technique.

 

I’m reaching out here to see if anyone has two cents to add on a couple main questions I have as I’d like to broaden my scope of research. I’ll list them below:

1) How does one determine the eligibility of a chemical for this ROA? If fat-solubility is key, how does one determine the fat-solubility of a chemical? Is this something that can be determined from chemical datasheets alone?

2) If a chemical is well tolerated via IM (intramuscular injection), is it assumed to also be so for SC?

 

If answering, please provide sources so I may pursue them in my research.

For @bambi and @What Am I directly, could you two please provide information sources that lead you to using SC over other ROAs? Given the stigma associated with needles, I am sure there must have been a good amount of research pooled before jumping in.

 

Thank you all! If this post breaks any rules, admins, please let me know so I can correct it.

[What Am I]

You're correct that there was hefty research a number of years ago before actually attempting the injection. But at this point, I couldn't direct you to any specific resources. It was many little bits here and there that amounted to a whole, and a clear understanding that subcutaneous injection of most (if not all) psychedelics would have effects comparable to intramuscular injection.

So to give practical answers to your questions:

1) How does one determine the eligibility of a chemical for this ROA? If fat-solubility is key, how does one determine the fat-solubility of a chemical? Is this something that can be determined from chemical datasheets alone?
If there's large numbers of reports and data surrounding a psychedelic's positive eligibility for IM injection, you can safely assume it'll absorb properly and comparably via SC injection. No need to bring in additional considerations such as fat solubility.

2) If a chemical is well tolerated via IM (intramuscular injection), is it assumed to also be so for SC?
Yes

Sorry for the lack of sources, but I figured I'd answer anyway. I realize this doesn't put you much further along than you were before asking. If you'd like to make yourself more comfortable before giving it a try, you'll probably have to scour the internet for specific explanations.

52 minutes ago, you too said:

For @bambi and @What Am I directly, could you two please provide information sources that lead you to using SC over other ROAs? Given the stigma associated with needles, I am sure there must have been a good amount of research pooled before jumping in.

Personally, I choose SC over other ROAs due to the sheer ease, precision, and effectiveness. It has all the obvious advantages of injection, and it has an edge over IM by being a bit less invasive. If you look through my post history regarding the subject, I'm sure I spelled it out pretty thoroughly.

Please feel free to ask any other questions.

Edited August 8 by What Am I

[you too]

Thank you for the speedy response. It was indeed scouring through your (and bambi’s) post history that I became curious about this ROA. It is seldom talked about despite seeming to be fantastic in terms of dose measurement, repeatability and relative safety and simplicity. Hence my quest to learn more.

 

I will wait for others to chime in, as hopefully someone can guide me to a greater understanding. I would love to understand the mechanisms for determining positive eligibility for SC injections. I take your word that it is a safe assumption that IM and SC are more-or-less interchangeable as ROAs, but I would love to know why. These things are fascinating!

 

Many thanks again for your response! If I find considerable reputable sources, I will post them to this thread for others on a similar path of understanding.

Edited August 8 by you too

[What Am I]

@you too Sounds awesome, thanks. Hopefully we can turn this thread into a useful resource for anyone who comes across it with the same goal. It may be tough though, because I haven't noticed anyone else who frequently posts here and also uses injection as an ROA, much less SC injection.

It's interesting how rare the use of SC for psychedelics actually is. You can find info about IM for various drugs basically everywhere, but it's not common knowledge that SC is practically interchangeable.

Edited August 8 by What Am I

[you too]

@What Am I @bambi

What’s your experience with subcutaneous dosages? What do your dose ranges look like?

Gauging from my research into IM and SQ 5-MeO-DMT, it seems like for most people:

low doses are between 2-5mg,

medium doses are between 5-8mg, and

breakthrough doses are between 8-20mg.

Given information is scarce on this, and you both have experience with it, it would be great to get your inputs! Is this any bit accurate? Obviously knowing mg/kg body weight would be ideal!

Also, if y’all have experience with SQ DPT, I’d be curious to know your dose ranges on that as well!

Edited September 19 by you too

[Schizophonia]

Yes, but you must have a pharmaceutical quality product and carry out the injection with impeccable hygiene.

Also it will go to the brain in a few seconds and if the dose is high you risk being totally confused with an insulin syringe in the abdomen or elsewhere, not great.

[What Am I]

9 hours ago, you too said:

What’s your experience with subcutaneous dosages? What do your dose ranges look like?

Gauging from my research into IM and SQ 5-MeO-DMT, it seems like for most people:

low doses are between 2-5mg,

medium doses are between 5-8mg, and

breakthrough doses are between 8-20mg.

Those numbers are pretty close in my experience, though I would say this is more accurate when relating to subcutaneous injection of 5-MeO-DMT fumarate:

low doses are between 1-3mg,

medium doses are between 4-7mg

high doses are between 8-11mg

breakthrough doses are between 12-15mg

9 hours ago, you too said:

Also, if y’all have experience with SQ DPT, I’d be curious to know your dose ranges on that as well!

No direct experience with DPT. I hear it can be a much scarier version of DMT. Though I've also heard of people having success utilizing it for spiritual pursuits.

3 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Also it will go to the brain in a few seconds and if the dose is high you risk being totally confused with an insulin syringe in the abdomen or elsewhere, not great.

When it comes to SC injection, there's about a 5 minute onset where you can pack your shit up and mentally prepare yourself. When talking about IV injection, the onset is just a matter of seconds, which could really leave you in a vulnerable position.

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

Those numbers are pretty close in my experience, though I would say this is more accurate when relating to subcutaneous injection of 5-MeO-DMT fumarate:

low doses are between 1-3mg,

medium doses are between 4-7mg

high doses are between 8-11mg

breakthrough doses are between 12-15mg

No direct experience with DPT. I hear it can be a much scarier version of DMT. Though I've also heard of people having success utilizing it for spiritual pursuits.

When it comes to SC injection, there's about a 5 minute onset where you can pack your shit up and mentally prepare yourself. When talking about IV injection, the onset is just a matter of seconds, which could really leave you in a vulnerable position.

Ok, i thought IM have almost the same assimilation quickness that IV.

[you too]

@What Am I Thank you so much for the info! Your experience and input is invaluable.

How would you describe the difference in breakthrough experience with subcutaneous injection vs vaporization? Do you experience it for a longer duration? I have no experience with either, but am fascinated by what I read.

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, you too said:

@What Am I Thank you so much for the info! Your experience and input is invaluable.

How would you describe the difference in breakthrough experience with subcutaneous injection vs vaporization? Do you experience it for a longer duration? I have no experience with either, but am fascinated by what I read.

Sure thing, happy to help.

So it may be a little tough for me to compare the two, because basically all of my breakthrough-level trips have involved an initial medium or high dose SC injection followed shortly by the use of 5meo e-juice to progressively dose myself across the breakthrough line. From what I can tell, my experience of the breakthrough is in line with the typical reports you hear from those who go to facilitators and get dosed all at once via vaporization. Meaning it's like an ego death, there's white light, identity shifts to be everything, etc. I've also read reports from those who have used large injection doses alone, and they describe a similar white light breakthrough, so I believe the quality of the experience can be the same with either ROA. As for duration of the whole trip, SC injection is longer, lasting about 30-60 minutes rather than vaporization's 15-30 minutes. I'm not sure if there's a difference in duration where the breakthrough phase is concerned.

I should note that not everyone experiences the breakthrough in the same way. There's some major variances that I'm not entirely sure how to account for. Here's a Reddit thread where a user experienced both the infinite whiteness during one of their trips, and then the infinite blackness during another. And then on top of that, there's others who reach a breakthrough while maintaining their human experience, similar to sahaj samadhi. Very interesting stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/5MeODMT/comments/1dtf637/trip_report_two_sides_of_the_bufo_coin/

Edited September 20 by What Am I

[What Am I]

Here's a new Martin Ball podcast episode where they discuss subcutaneous injection of 5-MeO-DMT.

 

[What Am I]

This is a follow-up episode to the last. In this one, Martin takes a ride using my favorite ROA.

 

[josemar]

He's so hardcore he bit his tongue 

[What Am I]

3 minutes ago, josemar said:

He's so hardcore he bit his tongue 

Actually, that is an interesting parallel to Leo's recent blog post where he mentioned drawing blood due to the intensity of awakening. Martin also cuts his nose in this one.