Why is Trump even allowed to run?

[enchanted]

Shouldn't election denying exclude you from running? It's one thing to contest results and ask for an investigation (which Trump did and got). But straight up deny an election results without evidence?

Election denying is playing right into the hands of our enemies who the US has been pointing the finger at for not holding fair elections. 

Trump has found the weakness of democracy which is that there is no "authoritarian strong man" to stop such a election denier/fraudster from running for office. 

[josemar]

[DocWatts]

2 hours ago, enchanted said:

Shouldn't election denying exclude you from running? 

 

Yes, it should have.

And if the Republican Party were still a conservative small 'd' democratic party, that should have been the end of his career in politics.

In Reality, the entirety of the Republican Party's apparatus has been enabling Trump.

The right wing propaganda machine has not only perpetuated Trump's Big Lie, but has spent years grooming roughly a third of the country for fascism.

We have the most corrupt Supreme Court in the history of the country supporting and enabling Trump, making it difficult if not impossible to hold him accountable for his flagrant violations of US Laws and the Constitution.

Edited August 8 by DocWatts

[enchanted]

2 hours ago, josemar said:

Interesting response. (Not sure it fits the definition of "conscious politics". )

Is this picture depicting your feelings? Or what are you trying to communicate? 

Edited August 8 by enchanted

[Husseinisdoingfine]

That’s exactly what I think. Like… He literally denied the election and led a coup. Shouldn’t that legally bar him?

But of course it won’t, as he filled the court system with his cronies.

[enchanted]

45 minutes ago, Jade123 said:

@enchanted

   If I had to guess, it's a feature of democracy and a god given right for any American who wants to become president. I think it's built into democracy, freedom, liberalism, and the constitution, so it's all a feature and not a bug/problem. So, in the total population of Americans, who all have egalitarianism and democracy as their foundation, anybody and anyone who wishes to pursue presidency, can do so, including Donald Trump. Even the Rock Dwane Johnson was approached and offered the idea of becoming president just because he was so popular then for the democrats.

   All nice in theory in the USA, but more harder to do in reality I guess when upholding the laws and honestly the constitution and the rights and freedoms should be reviewed and modified in the future at some point when the shoe fits.

Makes sense. Thanks 

[ICURBlessings]

7 hours ago, enchanted said:

Shouldn't election denying exclude you from running? It's one thing to contest results and ask for an investigation (which Trump did and got). But straight up deny an election results without evidence?   

Trump has found the weakness of democracy which is that there is no "authoritarian strong man" to stop such a election denier/fraudster from running for office. 

YES as an IDEAL Trump should not be allowed to run for President for denying the election results as part of 'leading a coup'. And I must add there are many other reasons why Trump should not be allowed to run for President - such as taking into his possession thousands of document belonging to the US Government - including Top-Secret Documents that he not only exposed and put them in such vulnerability but also took some of them around to "show-off". He should not be allowed to run also because of his implications with Putin and Putin's associates. And the list can go on...

However the weaknesses that Trump is taking advantages of are fundamentally of the human-nature and specifically against the Judicial System.

The first and foremost weakness was the lack of speed - the delay response - on the part of the Judicial System (DOJ as the Department of Justice) - in pursuing the criminal actions of Trump and company. No Judge or prosecutor in the history of this country had prosecuted a President, and those that happen to be in the position to do the deed, DID NOT want to be the first to act. They prosecuted many that were involved in the coup but delayed to prosecute Trump.

Once the legal process finally fell into the hands of those that had the guts to do the deed - then we begin to observe how painfully laborious such a prosecution is. Literally thousands of witness had to be interrogated as part of building the case. Meanwhile  the corruption consumed by the extreme-right politicians, lawyers, judges kept on increasing, and although in minority, they found ways to block and delay further the Judicial processes that will send Trump in jail.

Have no doubt Trump will be prosecuted sooner than later.

The Supreme Court was in a position to stop him from being allowed to run as a President - but it failed to fulfill its duty as such. This failing was in part due to weaknesses of characters and also to flagrant corruption. Right now as in today Biden is proceeding with a process to reform the Supreme Court. Now that He is not running, he can fully focus on this and he does not have to worry about who will disapprove his move.

As a note I would like to somewhat rectify what is a "weakness of character" when it comes to Judges and Prosecutors. These role bear colossal responsibilities where one should be able to prioritize the Nation and in this case the US Constitution over their personal lives and the lives of their loved ones. To do the right thing and do the deed that Justice calls for - in the case of Trump - means to put in danger your life and the life of your love ones. The treats that have been raining on the members of the DOJ and their staff, in addition to witnesses and jury members is unprecedented in the history of this country. The security forces are processing hundreds of threats a day. Most of these threats are are no more than a pretense - BUT the real threats have to be sorted out from them. It is incredible that this is happening to staff working for the DOJ because of a man that was elected by the power of misinformation and disinformation.

Edited August 8 by ICURBlessings

[enchanted]

6 hours ago, ICURBlessings said:

YES as an IDEAL Trump should not be allowed to run for President for denying the election results as part of 'leading a coup'. And I must add there are many other reasons why Trump should not be allowed to run for President - such as taking into his possession thousands of document belonging to the US Government - including Top-Secret Documents that he not only exposed and put them in such vulnerability but also took some of them around to "show-off". He should not be allowed to run also because of his implications with Putin and Putin's associates. And the list can go on...

However the weaknesses that Trump is taking advantages of are fundamentally of the human-nature and specifically against the Judicial System.

The first and foremost weakness was the lack of speed - the delay response - on the part of the Judicial System (DOJ as the Department of Justice) - in pursuing the criminal actions of Trump and company. No Judge or prosecutor in the history of this country had prosecuted a President, and those that happen to be in the position to do the deed, DID NOT want to be the first to act. They prosecuted many that were involved in the coup but delayed to prosecute Trump.

Once the legal process finally fell into the hands of those that had the guts to do the deed - then we begin to observe how painfully laborious such a prosecution is. Literally thousands of witness had to be interrogated as part of building the case. Meanwhile  the corruption consumed by the extreme-right politicians, lawyers, judges kept on increasing, and although in minority, they found ways to block and delay further the Judicial processes that will send Trump in jail.

Have no doubt Trump will be prosecuted sooner than later.

The Supreme Court was in a position to stop him from being allowed to run as a President - but it failed to fulfill its duty as such. This failing was in part due to weaknesses of characters and also to flagrant corruption. Right now as in today Biden is proceeding with a process to reform the Supreme Court. Now that He is not running, he can fully focus on this and he does not have to worry about who will disapprove his move.

As a note I would like to somewhat rectify what is a "weakness of character" when it comes to Judges and Prosecutors. These role bear colossal responsibilities where one should be able to prioritize the Nation and in this case the US Constitution over their personal lives and the lives of their loved ones. To do the right thing and do the deed that Justice calls for - in the case of Trump - means to put in danger your life and the life of your love ones. The treats that have been raining on the members of the DOJ and their staff, in addition to witnesses and jury members is unprecedented in the history of this country. The security forces are processing hundreds of threats a day. Most of these threats are are no more than a pretense - BUT the real threats have to be sorted out from them. It is incredible that this is happening to staff working for the DOJ because of a man that was elected by the power of misinformation and disinformation.

This is conscious politics and a type of answer I was hoping for. Very good insight thank you. 

[ICURBlessings]

17 minutes ago, enchanted said:

This is conscious politics and a type of answer I was hoping for. Very good insight thank you. 

Thanks, and my pleasure!

[Leo Gura]

Because our political system is hopelessly in the dark ages.

[Inliytened1]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because our political system is hopelessly in the dark ages.

Or a highly advanced society would have to allow him and ultimately the best man would win anyway.  Of course, randomness must then be also not shunned.  Giving way to a less than perfect system by design. 

 

Edited August 9 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Or a highly advanced society would have to allow him and ultimately the best man would win anyway.  Of course, randomness must then be also not shunned.  Giving way to a less than perfect system by design. 

In a highly advanced society Trump would be serving a life prison sentence for all his obvious crime.

Enough gaslighting.

Edited August 9 by Leo Gura

[gambler]

I stand with Leo. Lock him up. 
 

The latter sentence was a cheeky one, but there is truth to the joke. He needs to do his time in the bin. 

[Joshe]

@Leo Gura Regarding self-deception, have you touched on something like "the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law"? Not necessarily pertaining to the law but rather to someone's words or actions?

For example, Trump said to "peacefully" protest on the 6th. His apologists use this as a sort of "letter of the law" defense where they say "well, technically speaking...", while completely ignoring the "spirit" or the "essence" and writing off any attempt to ascertain the essence as wishful attempts to read his mind because you don't like him and since they themselves aren't suffering from TDS, they don't have any reason to read his mind. 

This argument put forth by Trump apologists appeals to many and I don't really see anyone countering it successfully. I think this concept of "letter vs spirit/essence", for lack of a better term, is the key to counter it. 

[DocWatts]

15 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@Leo Gura Regarding self-deception, have you touched on something like "the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law"? Not necessarily pertaining to the law but rather to someone's words or actions?

For example, Trump said to "peacefully" protest on the 6th. His apologists use this as a sort of "letter of the law" defense where they say "well, technically speaking...", while completely ignoring the "spirit" or the "essence" and writing off any attempt to ascertain the essence as wishful attempts to read his mind because you don't like him and since they themselves aren't suffering from TDS, they don't have any reason to read his mind. 

This argument put forth by Trump apologists appeals to many and I don't really see anyone countering it successfully. I think this concept of "letter vs spirit/essence", for lack of a better term, is the key to counter it. 

What you're describing is something called 'Constitutional Hardball'. It's a go-to tactic of 21st century authoritarians who are working within democratic systems. While this is the bread and butter of the modern Republican Party, Trump himself is dumb enough to commit flagrantly criminal actions on top of this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_hardball

From Wikipedia:

Constitutional hardball is the exploitation of procedures, laws and institutions by political actors for partisan gain in ways which violate pre-established norms and push the bounds of legality.[1][2] Legal scholars and political scientists have characterized constitutional hardball as a threat to democracy, because it undermines shared understanding of democratic norms and undermines the expectation that the other side will comply with democratic norms. As a result, the use of constitutional hardball by one side of partisans encourages other partisans to respond in similar fashion.[3][4][2]

Edited August 9 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

@Joshe There is no logicking with a Trump supporter. They are too far gone.

[Joshe]

Interesting, thanks @DocWatts! 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no logicking with a Trump supporter. They are too far gone.

@Leo Gura 

More than just Trump supporters have fallen for this. I see this defense they've mounted as particularly pernicious to the collective epistemology. It's not your run-of-the mill denial and delusion that only Trump fanatics fall for.

Trump apologists, distinct from Trump supporters, have spent years formulating, revising, polishing, and providing new releases of their latest and greatest defenses that allow Trump supporters to handwave away Jan 6, which sat in the back of all their minds as an unresolved, incoherent piece of reality. 

To date, their collective hard work has produced the defense of "ignore the essence, zoom into and focus on the literal and clearly discernable and say that trying to discern the essence is foolish", or whatever. 

I think there is huge opportunity for collective epistemic growth if enough thought leaders and influencers figure out how to  effectively articulate and disseminate this sneaky tactic of the ego. 

 

 

Edited August 9 by Joshe

[ryandesreu]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

@Leo Gura Regarding self-deception, have you touched on something like "the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law"? Not necessarily pertaining to the law but rather to someone's words or actions?

For example, Trump said to "peacefully" protest on the 6th. His apologists use this as a sort of "letter of the law" defense where they say "well, technically speaking...", while completely ignoring the "spirit" or the "essence" and writing off any attempt to ascertain the essence as wishful attempts to read his mind because you don't like him and since they themselves aren't suffering from TDS, they don't have any reason to read his mind. 

This argument put forth by Trump apologists appeals to many and I don't really see anyone countering it successfully. I think this concept of "letter vs spirit/essence", for lack of a better term, is the key to counter it. 

Mr Trump said "We love you, you're very special." to the Capitol rioters and later said that he would "absolutely" pardon them. I think he approves what happened. 

 

[ryandesreu]

Several lawsuits have been filed by individuals and groups seeking to disqualify Trump from running for office in 2024, citing the 14th Amendment. These cases argue that Trump's conduct meets the criteria for disqualification.

Some contend that applying the 14th Amendment in this way sets a dangerous precedent and could be seen as a politically motivated move, potentially undermining democratic processes.

Whether Trump should or could be disqualified from running for office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is still an open question, dependent on legal interpretations and ongoing court cases. The outcome will depend on how the courts interpret the amendment in the context of Trump's actions, as well as potential legislative actions by Congress.

[DocWatts]

55 minutes ago, ryandesreu said:

Several lawsuits have been filed by individuals and groups seeking to disqualify Trump from running for office in 2024, citing the 14th Amendment. These cases argue that Trump's conduct meets the criteria for disqualification.

Some contend that applying the 14th Amendment in this way sets a dangerous precedent and could be seen as a politically motivated move, potentially undermining democratic processes.

Whether Trump should or could be disqualified from running for office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is still an open question, dependent on legal interpretations and ongoing court cases. The outcome will depend on how the courts interpret the amendment in the context of Trump's actions, as well as potential legislative actions by Congress.

Section 3 of 14th Amendment wasn't just written for the Confederacy, it's eminently reasonable to interpret that it was meant to apply to any other violent insurrection attempts in the future as well. Doesn't seem like there should be much ambiguity for anyone who's actually adhering to the spirit of the law in good faith.

Trump inciting a violent mob to stop a peaceful transfer of power is a good faith interpretation of an 'insurrection'. Republican claims that Biden's handling of the Southern border somehow constitutes an 'insurrection' is not.

In other words, it's almost impossible to write a law that's completely immune from Bad Faith interpretation. 

(This is leaving aside that it would be better for the country if Trump is defeated at the ballot box, rather than being disqualified. The Law seems pretty clear on this).

Edited August 9 by DocWatts