UK riots

[Schizophonia]

5 hours ago, ArcticGong said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_serial_killers

What is this lousy list lol?

There is no more serial killer in the 21st century because they are too easily detectable at the first crime. The whole point is the crimes and offenses committed since the 2000s.

 

5 hours ago, Butters said:

You did some verbal jujitsu there. Culture is always changing. The perfect 1950s living that populist idealize never existed and especially cannot be created now. Unrealistic, xenofobic. 

5 hours ago, Butters said:

What matters is what we do now, today. And today we live in a fast changing globalist world. That's the reality. And to make the conscious choice to think small and nationalist in this reality is quite frankly dumb and regressive. 

Do you build you political ideas on drugs ? These are elements of language that are delusional and not based on anything tangible.

What matters to me is what will give me more sovereignty, purchasing power and security. 

[Boethius]

I'm an American who has only spent a few weeks total in the UK over the years, so take my observations with a grain of salt (though similar dynamics are sadly at play here too).

It seems like there is disagreement over the proximate causes of the riots -- whether the killing of 3 children by a 2nd generation Rwandan was just the last straw after other incidents involving machete attacks and etc (here I am going off of reports and analysis from the Lotus Eaters podcast) OR it was just the incident that far right instigators were finally successful in exploiting to turn out the protestors. I won't try to resolve this argument, except to say that it's certainly not a peaceful protest! Watching men breaking windows while drinking beers is a terrible look, lol.

Now that being said, in moving forward the government can either clamp down on the people protesting (through increased surveillance and restricting movement, as per the video from a soldier that Consept shared) and/or by addressing the needs and concerns of those rioting. Of those needs I think we have identified in this thread

(1) Need for physical safety from crimes perpetrated by immigrants

(2) Poor economic prospects

(3) Preserving English culture

I sense (3) is generally out the window -- that battle was fought and lost generations ago. But (1) and (2) might still be on the table. So my question (and God bless you for your patience!) is whether the governing elite has anything concrete and substantial to offer in addressing these concerns, how these two concerns should be balanced, or if the expectation is to bypass addressing these concerns in favor of "managing" the protestors by means of surveillance and control?

[Schizophonia]

6 hours ago, Consept said:

Well the rioters care and reform care because thats a big part of what theyre complaining about, the money it costs for immigration, but obviously this is not much of a problem. So theyve been misinformed basically and their anger has been stoked up by lies. 

No it's mainly motivated by insecurity.

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Societies constantly change

Why would be necessarily good ? 

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, for your country to grow and expand you need people,

So you need brought back millions of non-white and under-skilled migrants?

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it is what it is, its happened with every civilzation.

Not at all, there is a difference between ABSTRACT super structures collapsing and a great ethnic replacement.

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If the UK didnt get people from abroad to come and work and didnt expand their colonies across the world (invaded is another word) then the wouldnt be anywhere near the wealth they are now. You can feel how you want about it, but thats facts. 

So what ?

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A big part of this was also that they claimed he was muslim which led to mosques being attacked and this rhetoric about muslim grooming gangs (even though 89% of sexual abuse on kids i commited by white males)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huddersfield_grooming_gang

Where are the white gangs of pedophiles ? Where ? What do you have except some white insane guys here and there like Peter Scully ?

Also, pedophilia is strongly condemned and publicized in the West which gives the impression that it is more present among white people.

 

 

Edited August 8 by Schizophonia

[Consept]

20 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Where are the white gangs of pedophiles ? Where ? What do you have except some white insane guys here and there like Peter Scully ?

Also, pedophilia is strongly condemned and publicized in the West which gives the impression that it is more present among white people.

This is what you call cherry picking, literally 88% of all sexual abuse of minors convictions are white men and youre stuck up on grooming gangs. I like how when its white people its insane one off guys but muslims its something else. I dont even get your second point, its not the impression its more present among white people its actually 88% of convictions, i dont get what you dont understand. It means if white people stopped doing it sexual abuse would decrease by 88%, if muslims stopped doing it, it would decrease by 7%, if i had to chose one to target itd definitely be white people. 

Heres the stats btw - https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1ekjf49/child_sexual_abuse_in_202223_ethnicity_of/

Since youre obsessed by grooming gangs here are a selection of white ones in the last few years, they tend to call them pedophile rings when its white people, not sure why -  

https://news.sky.com/story/seven-members-of-paedophile-gang-guilty-of-running-monstrous-child-sex-abuse-ring-13008082

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11942601/Seven-women-jailed-total-58-years-paedophile-gang-21-guilty-abuse.html

https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/16/white-paedophile-ring-held-girl-hostage-and-forced-her-into-prostitution-7084115/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/11/seven-members-paedophile-gang-jailed

 

Heres a report on how the far right exploit sex abuse survivors to promote hate toward muslims. In the report they talk to actual survivors bout their experience - https://bylinetimes.com/2024/06/01/special-investigation-the-network-of-far-right-groups-exploiting-the-survivors-of-child-sexual-exploitation/

[zazen]

@Consept Good info all round. I also think what adds to their anger regarding jobs is that a lot of the types of jobs migrants do can be done undocumented with cash payment allowing them to earn benefits on top of the work their doing - essentially playing the system. I'm not sure how much of this is being done but I wouldn't consider it a large proportion. Last I checked, 0.5% of UK's population is made up of asylum seekers, and 15% of immigrants aren't born in the UK. Some proponents of the far right claim this to be reverse colonisation or an invasion. 

A lot of issues are systemic in nature (low economic growth, demographic decline, urbanisation and atomisation), that then get attributed in a tribalistic manner towards immigrants or towards those that don't share the same colour, creed or beliefs. Whilst there are definitely legitimate grievances and a feeling of societal decay, the cause is wrongly identified. These are excesses of stage orange, which cause a reversion to stage red and blue ideologies.

What is clear is that the face of urban Britain is changing at a very rapid rate, and they think that change is the cause of their societal decline. The legitimate grievance regarding immigration is that you can't have net migration being so high without improving and expanding the infrastructure needed to support that migration. The problem is when legitimate grievances are gone about in illegitimate ways and weaponised by nefarious interests and ideologues. 

Maajid Nawaz -

''Instigating riots as a distraction from the real causes of our problems is a tried and tested method used by those with power to maintain their grip.

What you have all been witnessing is the mass-radicalisation of many of Britain’s white working classes, which occurred after many British Muslims had already been radicalised in the previous decades. This is a process of reciprocal radicalisation.

The way such radicalisation works is by hijacking and monopolising existing legitimate grievances resulting in truths being used to spread division.

When people ask me what are the causes of radicalisation, I say the causes are legitimate grievances that are exploited by hardened ideologues who then manipulate vulnerable young people by pointing to those legitimate grievances and radicalise them. Now, at no stage in the process of radicalisation is it suggested that the grievances are not legitimate. So if you look at Islamist radicalisation, whether it be the genocide in Bosnia whether it be the invasion of Iraq whether it be racism at home or whether it indeed be the civil liberties violations that occurred during the war on terror decade under George Bush and Tony Blair, these are all legitimate grievances like Guantanamo, that people can point to to say this is radicalising Muslims. In comes the hardened ideologue and exploits those grievances to manipulate the angry young teenage Muslim into a path of radicalisation.

Why do I mention all this? Because Tommy Robinson has just been freed from prison. And Tommy Robinson is involved in this process of radicalisation. He and his supporters have some legitimate grievances that they point to, which end up radicalising themselves and the rest of their constituency. And we need to understand the process of radicalisation here to understand how to tackle it. Because the media silence around Tommy Robinson and why he went to prison and why he was revealed, or indeed the refusal to discuss some of the issues he raises, or indeed the desire to character assassinate the person that he is, won't make him go away, just as it doesn't make Trump go away.''

Edited August 8 by zazen

[Basman]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

To be fair the left haven't been in power, not even left, center left, haven't been in power for 14 years, so hopefully there will be changes for the better. The last time they were I'm power it was one of the most prosperous times for Britain as a whole, just shouldn't have got caught up in the Iraq and Afghanistan issues. I'm hopeful anyway. 

I don't know about the wider UK but England is so conservative. I do understand the frustration, especially since you are black.

[Consept]

37 minutes ago, Boethius said:

(1) Need for physical safety from crimes perpetrated by immigrants

Heres the thing and thanks for your question, we have to estimate the actual danger to physical safety the people in question and what their perceived threat is. Its important because if it is genuinely less safe then it would be a policing or tighter immigration issue, if its just perception then its really just trying to educate them or deradicalize them. If we look at this graph in the link, crime has been quite dramatically decreasing overall for 30 years and by nearly 90% - https://theconversation.com/most-crime-has-fallen-by-90-in-30-years-so-why-does-the-public-think-its-increased-228797#:~:text=As of 2024%2C violence%2C burglary,variations in reporting and recording.

So the perception is whats the issue, thats talked about in the linked article as well. If we take the perception, there should be a crackdown on misinformation as well as education around the subject. 

44 minutes ago, Boethius said:

(2) Poor economic prospects

These are pretty much down to the government in terms of decision making, hopefully this should improve under Labour, there are significant resources being put into what they call levelling up. However there are opportunities now which people may not be going for, so again this could be a perception issue. Also British do not want to work low level jobs and higher level jobs require qualifications, the last government put in place that people receiving benefits should do courses and they generally pushed them into work, which has its pros and cons. I think another factor is people dont may not feel that they have a purpose. In the 70s, 80s and 90s hooligans caused a tremendous amount of public nuisance and crime, but the hooligans felt satiated in their purpose. I dont really know how you give people purpose, I guess oppurtunities and engagement 

 

50 minutes ago, Boethius said:

(3) Preserving English culture

It will never go back to their fairytale of English culture. What i do know is back then they were definitely worse off. Culture evolves it is what it is, but English culture has also influenced every immigrant that has come to the country. Also keep in mind when English go abroad they are known for being the worst at integrating. Theres nearly a million living in Spain and i guarantee you most do not know Spanish. But yeah i agree the cats out of the bag on this one 

[Consept]

16 minutes ago, zazen said:

Maajid Nawaz -

''Instigating riots as a distraction from the real causes of our problems is a tried and tested method used by those with power to maintain their grip.

What you have all been witnessing is the mass-radicalisation of many of Britain’s white working classes, which occurred after many British Muslims had already been radicalised in the previous decades. This is a process of reciprocal radicalisation.

The way such radicalisation works is by hijacking and monopolising existing legitimate grievances resulting in truths being used to spread division.

When people ask me what are the causes of radicalisation, I say the causes are legitimate grievances that are exploited by hardened ideologues who then manipulate vulnerable young people by pointing to those legitimate grievances and radicalise them. Now, at no stage in the process of radicalisation is it suggested that the grievances are not legitimate. So if you look at Islamist radicalisation, whether it be the genocide in Bosnia whether it be the invasion of Iraq whether it be racism at home or whether it indeed be the civil liberties violations that occurred during the war on terror decade under George Bush and Tony Blair, these are all legitimate grievances like Guantanamo, that people can point to to say this is radicalising Muslims. In comes the hardened ideologue and exploits those grievances to manipulate the angry young teenage Muslim into a path of radicalisation.

Why do I mention all this? Because Tommy Robinson has just been freed from prison. And Tommy Robinson is involved in this process of radicalisation. He and his supporters have some legitimate grievances that they point to, which end up radicalising themselves and the rest of their constituency. And we need to understand the process of radicalisation here to understand how to tackle it. Because the media silence around Tommy Robinson and why he went to prison and why he was revealed, or indeed the refusal to discuss some of the issues he raises, or indeed the desire to character assassinate the person that he is, won't make him go away, just as it doesn't make Trump go away.''

This is an excellent summation, when i worked in a youth charity we had the police come in to train us on radicalization and what to look out for. This was for both far right and muslims because i live in a mixed area. What Majid said here is pretty much how it goes down. 

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

Good info all round. I also think what adds to their anger regarding jobs is that a lot of the types of jobs migrants do can be done undocumented with cash payment allowing them to earn benefits on top of the work their doing - essentially playing the system. I'm not sure how much of this is being done but I wouldn't consider it a large proportion. Last I checked, 0.5% of UK's population is made up of asylum seekers, and 15% of immigrants aren't born in the UK. Some proponents of the far right claim this to be reverse colonisation or an invasion. 

Them claiming benefits and working is not really a thing, I dont think they can even claiming benefits til they get residency, so non-EU its not a thing and in general its not because fraudulently claiming can have harsh sentences. What i have seen is Illegal immigrants working cash in hand, that definitely happens but im not sure on what scale and thats more of an issue of catching illegals, which no one is against. 

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Jade123 said:

My impression and sense of this particular policing is that it's exaggerated by the far right, and misunderstood by the left to far left. This type of policing is based on the potential threat of which side is about to go into action...I think. The reason why I hesitate is because there's just so much videos and information of this policing that's just too biased for me to comment. I did come across this video though:

The videos are very biased, but i appreciate you giving your take on it and doing a bit of research. Why I ask is because the British Police have a history of treating Black people very different then white people in the criminal system. Black people get stopped and searched nearly 5x more than white, are likely to get a longer sentence for the same crime etc. This has improved a little but even know its still uneven. this is the first ive heard of white people complaining about unfair treatment, just seems quite a strange thing to me. 

I think theyre main gripe is how theyre treated when 'protesting' but these were obviously rioters. I cant remember there being a prominent Muslim riot but there was a, for lack of better term, Black riot i think in 2010 most recently over a police shooting of a black man, which may or may not have been justified. In that riot the rioters were treated very harshly, some got years in prison. But i dont see much difference in how either was treated at least so far we dont know what convictions will happen. Heres an article comparing the 2 - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/07/uk-riots-how-does-the-violence-compare-with-unrest-in-august-2011

[Consept]

Here's some interesting polls from yougov 

 

 

In this one above you can see how concern about crime was declining up until 2016 when the use of social media rose a lot and also coincided with the brexit referendum. However as we know, actual crime has been declining steadily for 30 years. 

This one shows most in general don't support the riots or even believe them to be justified but what's striking is even reform voters mostly don't support them. Which shows the general population do not support these riots. 

This one again shows even some reform voters blame Tommy Robinson and far right groups, of course they will blame immigration but interestingly they also blame those taking part. 

This one further breaks down the previous chart. Muslims and starmer not to blame, those taking part, social media and far right groups most to blame

 

Edited August 8 by Consept

[Alex M]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Where are the white gangs of pedophiles ?

There are plenty of them. I can see @Consept linked to a few. I can add more if you need. 

[Schizophonia]

On 8/8/2024 at 9:08 PM, Consept said:

This is what you call cherry picking, literally 88% of all sexual abuse of minors convictions are white men and youre stuck up on grooming gangs. I like how when its white people its insane one off guys but muslims its something else. I dont even get your second point, its not the impression its more present among white people its actually 88% of convictions, i dont get what you dont understand. It means if white people stopped doing it sexual abuse would decrease by 88%, if muslims stopped doing it, it would decrease by 7%, if i had to chose one to target itd definitely be white people.

Heres the stats btw - https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1ekjf49/child_sexual_abuse_in_202223_ethnicity_of/

 

https://www.csacentre.org.uk/app/uploads/2024/02/Trends-in-Offical-Data-2022-23-FINAL.pdf

"This over-representation is likely to be related to the
overall under-identification of child sexual
abuse in minority ethnic communities"

"The conviction ratio ranged from 62% for Black
defendants to 83% for White defendants. This
is likely to be related to the offences for which
people from different ethnic backgrounds were
prosecuted: image offences, which were more
likely to be the reason for White defendants to
be prosecuted, were more likely than most other
child sexual abuse offences to result in a conviction
(see Table 3 above)"

On 8/8/2024 at 9:08 PM, Consept said:

This is what you call cherry picking, literally 88% of all sexual abuse of minors convictions are white men and youre stuck up on grooming gangs. I like how when its white people its insane one off guys but muslims its something else. I dont even get your second point, its not the impression its more present among white people its actually 88% of convictions, i dont get what you dont understand. It means if white people stopped doing it sexual abuse would decrease by 88%, if muslims stopped doing it, it would decrease by 7%, if i had to chose one to target itd definitely be white people. 

Heres the stats btw - https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1ekjf49/child_sexual_abuse_in_202223_ethnicity_of/

Since youre obsessed by grooming gangs here are a selection of white ones in the last few years, they tend to call them pedophile rings when its white people, not sure why -  

https://news.sky.com/story/seven-members-of-paedophile-gang-guilty-of-running-monstrous-child-sex-abuse-ring-13008082

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11942601/Seven-women-jailed-total-58-years-paedophile-gang-21-guilty-abuse.html

https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/16/white-paedophile-ring-held-girl-hostage-and-forced-her-into-prostitution-7084115/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/11/seven-members-paedophile-gang-jailed

What, you mean groups of white pedophiles up to 7 people! That's only 30 times less people than the Telford Pakistani pedophile gang ! You've convinced me, i'm going to stop voting right now and get my socialist party card

On 8/8/2024 at 9:08 PM, Consept said:

Heres a report on how the far right exploit sex abuse survivors to promote hate toward muslims. In the report they talk to actual survivors bout their experience - https://bylinetimes.com/2024/06/01/special-investigation-the-network-of-far-right-groups-exploiting-the-survivors-of-child-sexual-exploitation/

Yes, because they are worry.

It's like saying ecologist exploit climate changes evidences.

Edited August 9 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Jade123 said:

   This is becoming too emotionally charged topic and now we're talking about pedophilia crimes more and riots more instead of ways to make it more peaceful or something. Can we all please calm down a bit?@Alex M @Schizophonia

 

[Consept]

31 minutes ago, Jade123 said:

   This thread is like a microcosm of polarizing talks and things getting heated much more than having nuanced discussions. I think I'll just leave.

It does actually sum up the conflict well. I am passionate about the subject but I also do try and keep it to facts and not insult the other side. But this is what I find to be the problem as a whole. 

From what I see the far right just doesn't like what they see as foreigners, they see them as a threat to their bloodline so they are in direct opposition with anything that suggests integration. Thus it is impossible to have any kind of honest nuanced conversation because their sole intention is to justify their racism/nationalism. This isn't just the far right, this is any extremism. 

But when the extremesim crosses a certain point the ends justify the means, meaning they are willing to lie, cheat do whatever to get their intended outcome, this goes for left wing extremism as well. But in terms of Britain there has been over a decade now of intentional radicalization and the riots are the result. 

 

 

[Zen LaCroix]

Many black people will be Native born French citizens since France has overseas departments such as Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte and French Guiana. A lot of French people don't know this

 

[Alex M]

14 hours ago, Jade123 said:

This is becoming too emotionally charged topic and now we're talking about pedophilia crimes more and riots more instead of ways to make it more peaceful or something. Can we all please calm down a bit?@Alex M 

 I'm calm. Like @Consept said, I'd prefer to stick to facts/figures. To make it clear, I have no issue with @Schizophonia. Once we started talking about this, I knew it would be a case of when rather than if the paedophile/gooming topic would turn up 🤷‍♂️

[Consept]

18 hours ago, Jade123 said:

   One thing I can agree with you @Consept, is how egotistical, narcissistic and delusional privileged Elon Musk has gotten. He should spend less time on social media being keyboard warrior and in field fighting for what he views, or making better rockets or better tech. Less time being a social media influencer displaying victim mentality from social media, more time engineering stuff or coming to the UK to actually do something about it. He needs a lot of therapy.

I do agree with you on Musk. The irony of someone buying a social media platform because you think it's partisan and then to literally be unashamedly partisan on the platform is actually crazy. 

I think he's been really emboldened by the right and thinks he's some kind of God like figure, he had problems before but there's an obvious escalation. He's literally become the bad guy in bond film. 

Seperate to that I found an interesting tidbit of information  about Tommy Robinson, this is from an article in the guardian that shows his funding from zionist groups. Essentially they covered the cost of his legal fees, demonstrations and put him on a wage. Zionists are essentially at war with the Muslim world in terms of culture but of course literally in Israel. So it's very interesting that Robinson is jumping on any opportunity to attack Muslims and sow hate in the UK and is getting funding to do so. It implies he's actually dishonest actor, which would also suggest the situation is not what he's trying to make out 

 

 

[Bobby_2021]

Immigration policy for any western country should be this: 
Take immigrants that add value to the economy and do not take immigrants that do not add value to the economy. 

I would listen to the concerns of the local population, but you also have to take into account that your economy is structured like a ponzi scheme. It needs a constant inflow of people to run it. That is how it is structured. It is a complex problem to be honest. You will have to restructure your entire economy if you want to deal with it properly. 

[Buck Edwards]

Piers Morgan is so biased on this issue it's laughable. 

 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Jade123 said:

@Bobby_2021

   Maybe a better way to understand the fears Christians, or the more traditionalists and conservatives have towards some of those immigrants is when they become a minority in their own country eventually. Case in point the Ottoman empire and what they did to the Armenians. That fear of the past, which is a concept projected onto the future is what I think most white UK Christian nationalists don't want. My best guess IMO.

Those are their fears but the demographic that are protesting or just have the fears, are most likely not Christians. The UK isn't Christian in the way the USA is, that's not to say there aren't Christians but it's just not that much of a consideration. The right bring it in mainly to counter islam but I guarantee very few complaining go to church. 

I think another thing reform people are concerned is their culture isn't actually that defined, so if I say what are specific customs and cultural things unique to white British people, there's actually not that many that are not also practiced by other non-white British people and immigrants. Also a lot of British culture is heavily influenced by the other cultures and has been for years. For example indian food is basically the national food in England, is the most popular by a long way, most British music is influenced by Jamaican and african music, as well as soul and rnb. There was a massive ska scene in the 80s, northern soul, dnb, garage music etc etc. Looking at Britain now it's culture is so infused I don't even know if any of these protestors have experienced Britain seperate from the culture immigrants have brought. They watch lots of immigrants play football on a Saturday, get a curry Saturday night and go out on the town listening to afrobeats and rap music. 

But if their unique culture is fading its because they didn't see the value in it.