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[OBEler]

@Salvijus I know what I say will trigger some sober yogi people here. But it is what it is.

Drug free vs drug users, it's funny to observe how mostly drug free users get angry at them and try to dismiss their achievements which are obviously way bigger in some fields (not in all of course). Especially in sports this makes a world difference between those two groups. Let's just be honest. They are jealous at them. Like Peter Ralston would probably jealous at Leo who didn't do much consciousness work like Ralston did. It dismisses somehow his work and I can understand that. Should I read Ralstons book or take 20 minutes of 5 Meo and then probably could write the book by myself after?

But of course there exists natural people who even could outgrow drug users. It's pretty rare but possible and these people would with drugs probably go to levels no human accessed before.

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

I feel sober people think psychedelic users are deluded. And psychedelic community think sober yogis are deluded. And both sides are 100% convinced they are right

What to do... Both sides are genuine also. That is their honest perception of reality. 

 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[OBEler]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I feel sober people think psychedelic users are deluded. And psychedelic community think sober yogis are deluded. And both sides are 100% convinced they are right

What to do... Both sides are genuine also. That is their honest perception of reality. 

 

@Salvijus If you study spiral dynamics  both groups, higher vs lower, think of each other that the other group is delusional. But from a meta perspective the higher one is less delusional than the lower one.

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, OBEler said:

@Salvijus If you study spiral dynamics  both groups, higher vs lower, think of each other that the other group is delusional. But from a meta perspective the higher one is less delusional than the lower one.

Of course both sides can't be equally right. But unless there gets invented some kind of enlight-o-meter, this debate of who is more right will be impossible to solve imo. Everyone will have their own opinion and perception. Maybe it has to be that way even, idk. 

[OBEler]

@Salvijusok another example:

Trump thinks sadghuru is delusional about spirituality.sadghuru thinks Trump is delusional about spirituality.

Is there still one who is more delusional or are both equally delusional of spirituality overall?

Just because both think of each other as delusional doesn't mean both are same delusional 

Now replace trump with non drug users and sadghuru with serious psychonauts. That's what I want to tell.

 

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

3 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Salvijusok another example:

Trump thinks sadghuru is delusional about spirituality.sadghuru thinks Trump is delusional about spirituality.

Is there still one who is more delusional or are both equally delusional of spirituality overall?

One is more true than the other, yes. 

But I'm saying, if one person is wearing blue glasses and another person is wearing red glasses. And the person with red glasses is saying to the person that the world is red and not blue. And the other person is doing the same but vice versa. How will you ever win this debate? Both sides are genuine and honest about what they see. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

If you want to know who has the best perception of reality, ask the person without the ego, because ego are the glasses that distort our perception. 

But then who's going to measure who has what level of ego in them? Is there such a thing as ego-meter? Again we run into the same problem. 

[OBEler]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

One is more true than the other, yes. 

But I'm saying, if one person is wearing blue glasses and another person is wearing red glasses. And the person with red glasses is saying to the person that the world is red and not blue. And the other person is doing the same but vice versa. How will you ever win this debate? Both sides are genuine and honest about what they see. 

That might be right from an absolute perspective but let's not destroy every discussion with such plump truth. Don't mix absolute truth with relative or we cannot even discuss about anything.

It's like we discuss deeply a topic about which products are healthier, burger vs an apple and you come and tell everyone that there is no truth everyone is right. Because everyone lives in their reality and it's all subjective. It's like people who tell no one exists so no one is eating. Eating is an illusion. End of discussion.

 

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, OBEler said:

It's like we discuss deeply a topic about which products are healthier, burger vs an apple and you come and tell everyone that there is no truth everyone is right. Because everyone lives in their reality and it's all subjective. It's like people who tell no one exists so no one is eating. Eating is an illusion. End of discussion.

I'm repeatedly saying one side is more true than the other. I'm just saying how do you determine who's right when we have no enlight-o-meter? On what basis are you going to decide? 

[OBEler]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I'm repeatedly saying one side is more true than the other. I'm just saying how do you determine who's right when we have no enlight-o-meter? On what basis are you going to decide? 

From our common sense. It should be enough to see that sadghuru is spiritual more developed than trump through his actions, his speeches.

You cannot say absolutely that and you can never prove that but then we already touch absolute truth and comparisons will be not possible.

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, OBEler said:

From our common sense. It should be enough to see that sadghuru is spiritual more developed than trump through his actions, his speeches.

You cannot say absolutely that and you can never prove that but then we already touch absolute truth and comparisons will be not possible.

It becomes a problem when your common sense is telling you trump is a fool. And some other person's common sense is telling him trump is a prophet sent by god. And there are such people. 

What I'm trying to say to you is similar. You're super convinced about the psychedelics and their role in spirituality. But the other side is equally as convinced about their perception of reality. This common sense approach doesn't work otherwise everyone would be on the same side. 

[OBEler]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

It becomes a problem when your common sense is telling you trump is a fool. And some other person's common sense is telling him trump is a prophet sent by god. And there are such people. 

What I'm trying to say to you is similar. You're super convinced about the psychedelics and their role in spirituality. But the other side is equally as convinced about their perception of reality. This common sense approach doesn't work otherwise everyone would be on the same side. 

The difference is,  I was on the other side (the natural path) before for decades. So I know the other side very well. But the other side doesn't know the psychedelic using side. So they really are clueless. That's the difference.

[Salvijus]

Just now, OBEler said:

The difference is,  I was on the other side (the natural path) before for decades. So I know the other side very well. But the other side doesn't know the psychedelic using side. So they really are clueless. That's the difference.

There are many people who did psychedelics and transitioned to natural path and say the same thing about their side of the story. 

[Salvijus]

Like I've said already. Only the one who has no ego has the best view of reality because it is the ego that distorts things. But because there is no ego-meter, there is no way of knowing how accurate one's perception of reality really is. 

[OBEler]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

There are many people who did psychedelics and transitioned to natural path and say the same thing about their side of the story. 

And that are the only one who should be allowed to compare, if they did it seriously. Most people like Ralston did just a bunch of random lsd trips, a very weak psychedelic compared to 5 Meo. They should not allowed to compare at all.

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, OBEler said:

And that are the only one who should be allowed to compare, if they did it seriously. Most people like Ralston did just a bunch of random lsd trips, a very weak psychedelic compared to 5 Meo. They should not allowed to compare at all.

Psychedelic users will say. "unless they did what I did, they will not be able to understand" 

And sober mediators say the same thing, "unless you invest the time that I invested in these practices, these psychedelic people will not see how off they are" 

[OBEler]

10 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Psychedelic users will say. "unless they did what I did, they will not be able to understand" 

And sober mediators say the same thing, "unless you invest the time that I invested in these practices, these psychedelic people will not see how off they are" 

I agree with that, psychedelic users should also well know the other side and at least invest a serious time and work sober. Otherwise they also really shouldn't compare.

But at the end you really only can compare if you did both seriously.

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

Amen. I'm gonna leave it at that. Enough was said :] 

🙏

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[OBEler]

10 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Amen. I'm gonna leave it at that. Enough was said :] 

🙏

19 minutes ago, OBEler said:

 

Yeah we need to try out what's best. Psychedelics, sober practices or both. The only way is trying out for yourself seriously. No guru can tell you that. Not even sadghuru.

 

[CARDOZZO]

20 hours ago, Davino said:

It should be compulsory to watch this video. One of the best of all times.