My Bashar Consult

[Salvijus]

17 minutes ago, OBEler said:

I like your other comments but that evidence is weak.

If I look in a remote video session into the people I see that it is consciousness in them like in me. However in the near future how do I know that these people are not ai generated ? If they are not real, 100% ai generated and no consciousness behind them, I still would probably recognize consciousness in them. But there is nothing behind them.

I think talking to ai robot will never feel the same as talking to a real human even if Ai can replicate human emotions 100%. It would still feel different. It wouldn't have that effect when you look an enlightened person in the eyes and your whole being gets shaken. It would feel like you just watched at a metal box instead. 

However your argument invovles video recordings. That makes things more complicated. I'd have to think about the answer to that myself. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

Eyes are the window into a person's soul as they say. 

You can know someone is alive when you look someone in their eyes without them saying a word. If you looked AI in the eyes, you'd not feel anything. Even tho it imitates all the human behavior. 

 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[Joshe]

4 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

Have you ever experienced anything similar, like holding two perspectives at the same time?

This concept keeps coming up and is very interesting. I think of an octopus wrapping it's tentacles around 8 different objects and perceiving them all at once. This seems impossible from my limited perspective. It seems the 8 legs are looking for something specific to its survival and when they find it, that single thing becomes the focal point of perception.

I've contemplated the implications of holding multiple perceptions/focal points simultaneously but there's a block I can't get through 😂. Obviously. But when you think about it... what would be the point of it? I think Leo has a good argument—one seems good enough, but that doesn't satisfy my curiosity here.

Edited August 5 by Joshe

[Joshe]

[OBEler]

30 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I think talking to ai robot will never feel the same as talking to a real human even if Ai can replicate human emotions 100%. It would still feel different. It wouldn't have that effect when you look an enlightened person in the eyes and your whole being gets shaken. It would feel like you just watched at a metal box instead. 

However your argument invovles video recordings. That makes things more complicated. I'd have to think about the answer to that myself. 

Yeah please think about what I mean here. Don't go into technical details I was just looking for an example how it would be possible. Remember, just one counter example needed and your whole proof is broken.

 

You can also think about people who take deliriants and talk to persons which they imagine and they think it's 100% real. But in a nanosecond it vanished.

You can also think about real persons talking to you via zoom but they are dead already and it's just a recording. There could be many other examples. VR avatars probably would be best to convince you.

[Salvijus]

58 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You can also think about people who take deliriants and talk to persons which they imagine and they think it's 100% real. But in a nanosecond it vanished.

My counter argument would be this. 

Only when you have a strong sense of who you are, of your own presence and sentience can you distinguish if others have sentience or if it's just imitation or mental projection or something. 

The thing with people on deliriants is that they lose all sense of who they are. In such a condition they lose all ability to tell have what's real and what's a projection of their mind. 

It takes one to know one . 

58 minutes ago, OBEler said:

VR avatars probably would be best to convince you.

Don't you think there would be a difference between talking to a npc inside a virtual reality game. And talking to a sentient gamer inside the virtual reality game? 

Or another question I would ask. Will texting with ai will ever feel like texting with a real person? 

This is an open question tho. 

My personal belief is... Probably no. If you're sensitive you can still feel the presence of another being behind the screen. Although I'm not sure to what extent this feeling can be replicated with ai.

58 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You can also think about real persons talking to you via zoom but they are dead already and it's just a recording.

The examples with recorded videos are the most difficult. The difference and the line becomes very blur. 

 

However, there's another way to approach it because it takes only one proof to brake solipsism also. And that one proof would be this. Could you ever replicate the feeling of seeing an enlightened being in their eyes and having your whole being shaken? That feeling that you get that you're standing in front of some super concious guy. That deep recognition that what you're looking at is not a metal box or an empty bag of flesh and bones or a hologram. But that you're looking at something devine through those eyes. Replicate me this experience with ai, deliriants, recorded videos, holograms etc. Because if it can't be replicated, then it becomes a proof against solipsism also. 

And remember, the only reason one can recognize that divinity in another is becomes it takes one to know one. Sentience recognizes sentience. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[OBEler]

42 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

My counter argument would be this. 

Only when you have a strong sense of who you are, of your own presence and sentience can you distinguish if others have sentience or not, if it's just imitation or mental projection or something real. 

The thing with people on deliriants is that they lose all sense of who they are. In such a condition they lose all ability to tell have what's real and what's a projection of their mind. 

It takes one to know one . 

Don't you think there would be a difference between talking to a npc inside a virtual reality game. And talking to a sentient gamer inside the virtual reality game? 

Or another question I would ask. Will texting with ai will ever feel like texting with a real person? 

This is an open question tho. 

My personal belief is... Probably no. If you're sensitive you can still feel the presence of another being behind the screen. Although I'm not sure to what extent this feeling can be replicated with ai.

The examples with recorded videos are the most difficult. The difference and the line becomes very blur. 

 

However, there's another way to approach it because it takes only one proof to brake solipsism also. And that one proof would be this. Could you ever replicate the feeling of seeing an enlightened being in their eyes and having your whole being shaken? That feeling that you get that you're standing in front of some super concious guy. That deep recognition that what you're looking at is not a metal box or an empty bag of flesh and bones. But that you're looking at something devine through those eyes. Replicate me this experience with ai, deliriants, recorded videos etc. Because if it can't be replicated, then it becomes a proof against solipsism also. 

 

I think you don't know how some deliriants work. You are completely functional and can have a strong sense of who you are, even stronger than in sober states. And then suddenly you see persons which dont exist. You can even talk to them for hours. Look for "Stechapfel" trip reports.

Can't you think a little far in the future? To make it more obvious for: Let's take 1 million years of improvement into ai. What do you think would be capable of convincing a human that he talks with another human but it's ai?

And ai already passed the turing test. Humans cannot differ anymore if they talk with an ai or not. Please don't come now with technical details or that you can still  see the difference. Can't you go meta and see how this is possible? If not now then 100% in the future? But it's already now so if you have problems with looking into the future this one should not be so difficult.

 

"Could you ever replicate the feeling of seeing an enlightened being in their eyes and having your whole being shaken"

Well absolutely. You just resonate with what you see. Like watching porn videos can shake your whole being. And these porn videos don't need to be real, it can be manga porn.complete fantasy.

By the way you can watch transmission YouTube videos and people tell same shaking experiences like in real life. But they just see Pixels on the screen. And pixels can be Generated. Ai can easy copy that just train them with some transmission videos and there you have it.

 

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

21 minutes ago, OBEler said:

By the way you can watch transmission YouTube videos and people tell same shaking experiences like in real life. But they just see Pixels on the screen. And pixels can be Generated. Ai can easy copy that just train them with some transmission videos and there you have it.

That's why recorded videos are the most difficult for me. Because it seems energy can be recorded. So it can have the similar impact conciousness would have. 

21 minutes ago, OBEler said:

I think you don't know how some deliriants work. You are completely functional and have normal self conscious. And then you see persons which dont exist. Look for "Stechapfel" trip reports.

I would have to check him out. But being functional is not the same as being self aware. People can just be on autopilot. But when you look them in their eyes there's nothing home. You can clearly feel there's no connection to them even when they seem to answer questions. I've had a few conversations with such people who were heavy into psychedelics. They talk, they do things, but it's all on autopilot. The light and presence in their eyes is gone. Like a perfect ai would be lol. But ai would be even more dead inside probably. Some are like that on psychiatric medication aswell probably. 

21 minutes ago, OBEler said:

Can't you think a little far in the future? To make it more obvious for: Let's take 1 million years of improvement into ai. What do you think would be capable of convincing a human that he talks with another human but it's ai?

And ai already passed the turing test. Humans cannot differ anymore if they talk with an ai or not. Please don't come now with technical details or that you can still  see the difference. Can't you go meta and see how this is possible? If not now then 100% in the future? But it's already now so...

I wonder if it could fool an enlightened person tho. A normal person is not deeply self aware. And their ability to feel presence of another being is not that great. Whereas an enlightened being can know the level of conciousness of another being very accurately. And I believe no ai, even a future one could fool an enlightened being that the metal box that imitates human behavior to its perfection has conciousness. 

But this is my personal opinion. It's debatable. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[OBEler]

@Salvijus and that is what I meant that your argument is weak.

You right now want to disprove solipsism with the claim that an enlightened being can see through things if they are real or not . Because they are so self conscious and connected they can see through things. Some super human detection of consciousness.

 In this claim are some heavy speculations. Are you enlightened? Do you know enlightened people who did this experiment successfully? Probably you think this would be the case but what if your assumptions are wrong?

I know enlightened people who got scammed so these people are not somehow special to overcome delusions. I bet even Peter Ralston would fall in love with a followerin which is in truth a chatbot with a ai generated picture of a girl. If you think that would not be possible then you need to drop some fantasys of enlightened people.

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

47 minutes ago, OBEler said:

In this claim are some heavy speculations. Are you enlightened?

Not enlightened but I believe ai would not pass the turing test with me. 

A better example would be sadhguru. I don't believe any robot ever would fool his perception. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, OBEler said:

Probably you think this would be the case but what if your assumptions is wrong?

It's an open question of course. It could turn out to be wrong yes. We're just discussing. 

[OBEler]

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

It's an open question of course. It could turn out to be wrong yes. We're just discussing. 

My girlfriend is enlightened, she cannot tell the difference between a real job offer and a scam job offer. She for me a very delusional being. She sees people who don't exist. If you think these people are somehow real, she also saw Mickey mouse.Yes Mickey mouse is not real for her, but I am also not real for her. She knows that no one exists and everything is one. There is only one.

There you have it. Or do you think she is not enlightened enough? Can only sadghuru see the consciousness behind a person?  Well I bet my girlfriend is already more enlightened than him even without yoga, without reading any spiritual books. 

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

30 minutes ago, OBEler said:

My girlfriend is enlightened, she cannot tell the difference between a real job offer and a scam job offer. She for me a very delusional being. She sees people who don't exist. If you think these people are somehow real, she also saw Mickey mouse.Yes Mickey mouse is not real for her, but I am also not real for her. She knows that no one exists and everything is one. There is only one.

There you have it. Or do you think she is not enlightened enough? Can only sadghuru see the consciousness behind a person?  Well I bet my girlfriend is already more enlightened than him even without yoga, without reading any spiritual books. 

Hmm. I don't know what to say to this lol. 

I have a problem taking what people say on psychedelics seriously. Puporing (from this forum) is another example of being the most awake human being ever after doing some mushrooms.

The list of such people is very long. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[OBEler]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Hmm. I don't know what to say to this lol. 

I have a problem taking what people say on psychedelics seriously. Puporing is another example of being the most awake human being ever after doing some mushrooms.

The list of such people are very long. 

She says such things completely sober and it's her baseline reality, without taking anything.

Well what I just want to show you that you have not found a proof against Solipsism at all. You are just taking wild assumptions

 

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, OBEler said:

She says such things completely sober and it's her baseline reality, without taking anything.

Well what I just want to show you that you have not found a proof against Solipsism at all. You are just taking wild assumptions

 

That's fair. I enjoyed this convo regardless. 

No she actually did some mushrooms. And then... Things happened. 

[OBEler]

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's fair. I enjoyed this convo regardless. 

No she actually did some mushrooms. And then... Things happened. 

She took 5 meos. Yes then things happened. She became god. So what?

When sadghuru was sitting on the mountain for hours also things happened.

Do you think only yoga and meditation as a tool is allowed to raise your consciousness, otherwise it's false? This thinking is limited and cannot pass reality check.

If someone pumps 300 kg with steroids in just a few months and the other one trains natural his whole life and pumps 120 kg, who at the end pumps more at a contest? You see the drug free one cannot even compete. So with consciousness work.

 

Edited August 5 by OBEler

[Salvijus]

9 minutes ago, OBEler said:

She took 5 meos. Yes then things happened. She became god. So what?

When sadghuru was sitting on the mountain for hours also things happened.

Do you think only yoga and meditation as a tool is allowed to raise your consciousness, otherwise it's false?

 

Hmmm. Psychedelics can be used to raise conciousness. However, there seems to be a common occurance for people to do psychedelics and become, pardon my language, deluded. 

The problem is, that it's just my personal observation and others may have a different perception. However some people have shared to have this observation also. Sadhguru himself says people are just, pardon my language, become slowly more retarded on psychedelics. 

The problem is, people on psychedelics never see things that way... Idk what else to say. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus

[Kalki Avatar]

@Carbon Nice. Specially for clarifying number 3.

It would have been interesting to know if people of his planet also use psychedelics of their own kind. Crazy stuff. 

Edited August 5 by Kalki Avatar

[OBEler]

Just now, Salvijus said:

Hmmm. Psychedelics can be used to raise conciousness. However, there seems to be a common occurance for people to do psychedelics and become, pardon my language, deluded. 

The problem is, that it's just my personal observation. And some people have shared to have this observation also. Sadhguru himself says people are just, pardon my language, become slowly more retarded on psychedelics. 

The problem is, people on psychedelics never see things that way... Idk what else to say. 

Yes that happens, even after 5 Meo. I don't say this is delusional free.

But I see so many people, especially here on this forum, who do yoga and meditation only and become even more and more delusional and stupid over time if they haven't done a good amount of psychedelics before.

I think psychedelics will at least self correct you the deeper you go. With normal tools this would take decades. So better grow fast with some delusional states in-between than stay a stupid guy for decades until he reaches the next little yoga progression.

 

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, OBEler said:

Yes that happens, even after 5 Meo. I don't say this is delusional free.

But I see so many people, especially here on this forum, who do yoga and meditation only and become even more and more delusional and stupid over time if they haven't done a good amount of psychedelics before.

I think psychedelics will at least self correct you the deeper you go. With normal tools this would take decades. So better grow fast with some delusional states in-between than stay a stupid guy for decades until he reaches the next little yoga progression.

 

That's fair. That's the thing that every person has their own perception of reality really. I don't know if it's worth going into discussion over what is the most accurate one at the moment because we talked a lot already. I have nothing to add to this convo anymore. 

Edited August 5 by Salvijus