Can someone become enlightened through meditation?

[Princess Arabia]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why it's sure that Ramana maharshi was enlightened? Or Ramakrishna, adyashanti, Krishnamurti, etc? Those people were spiritual, they like meditation and yoga, and in their opinion, they were enlightened.

Not sure which Krishnamurti you're referring to but UG Krishnamurti doesn't believe in enlightenment.

 

[integration journey]

@Ishangadid you find the inner engineering program  beneficial in your journey? Just wondering because I heard a lot about it 

[Osaid]

The reason why enlightenment doesn't directly relate itself to anything relative like genetics, luck, etc, is simply because the non-enlightened state is a belief. 

This is also why people will say stuff like "you are already enlightened", because all that is happening is that you believe in something that isn't actually there.

It's similar to if a kid came up to you and said "How do I get off of Santa's naughty list?" You obviously don't need to do anything from the perspective of someone who knows Santa doesn't exist, but in order to see this you have to undo the belief first. Because there is no problem in the first place, there is only an assumption that Santa exists which can be dispelled by looking at your experience of Santa.

Analogously, you can imagine someone who believes that gravity does not exist. Even if they don't believe it, they are still anchored to Earth. Similarly, you can believe the separate self exists, but everything will evidently point towards the fact that it doesn't exist. There is simply a belief operating which isn't actually experienced. 

It doesn't matter your luck or genetics, you will always experience gravity. Similarly, being enlightened is literally just the default state where you aren't believing or assuming that there are multiple experiences of yourself.

[Sugarcoat]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It seems that there is a constant energy that keeps closed. a vibration of the psyche that encompasses the entire pattern of existence that we are. We are like trapped in a bubble, with our energy bouncing off its walls, without being able to perceive beyond.

with psychedelics sometimes the walls of the bubble dissolve, and perception becomes limitless. Then you realize that there are many things that blocks, Specifically, the one who blocks is you, but you exist as a stable energetic pattern. it is very difficult to see yourself, to understand your mechanisms. The depth of fear is not easily perceived, it is hidden, beneath the surface. Fear is the great wall, and although it is hidden, it manifests itself in many ways.

Interesting 

[Breakingthewall]

8 hours ago, Lila9 said:

What is enlightenment? How can one know what it is without experiencing it?

That's the interesting question. I would say that it is the total absence of obstacles in the mind. Enlightenment does not imply knowledge or ability, although it may facilitate it. It is the free mind, which flows without bouncing back on itself.

The human mind is almost always, or always, built on a foundation of fear. self-preservation and fear of rejection. We are individuals who want to remain individuals, and the possibility of being destroyed terrifies us. This is a genetic preservation mechanism, without it the species would not have prospered. We are also social beings, part of a hive, and we need to be accepted to survive and reproduce, another instinct genetically encoded by fire. On these bases a complicated mental tapestry is built with many ramifications.

The mind identifies in adolescence with the social matrix and goes deeper and deeper with that identification. It is a natural mechanism that makes humanity work as a single being and be able to do things like send ships to Mars. an extremely sophisticated and effective, definitive evolutionary mechanism.

The mind takes on a life of its own and separates itself from matter, evolving at ultra-fast speed. We are servants of the mind, supports that give our processing power to the matrix, slaves. It is a trapped life, moved by unconscious stimuli, where every act and every gesture, from the decision to have a son to the slightest thought, are given by social/genetic programming, since both merge.

In this panorama, the individual who suffers, in most cases opts for evasion, and in a few, for liberation, and in few manages to understand his chains and break them, and be free ,then the understanding can start.

Edited August 1 by Breakingthewall

[inFlow]

Yoga+Kriya is what is gonna get you anywhere near Enlightenment. Simple meditation is nothing compared to what Yoga+Kriya does.

[Sugarcoat]

One thing that I think is important that maybe isn’t talked about much is desire. I’m not enlightened I don’t know this for sure but I think with anything in life it’s important to want it really badly. You must hate the human existence and want really badly to end it and find truth, that is a big key. You try and try and try and try and exhaust the effort and in some way or another find it

[Ishanga]

8 hours ago, integration journey said:

@Ishangadid you find the inner engineering program  beneficial in your journey? Just wondering because I heard a lot about it 

Yes very much so, it has all the ingredients to take You all the way, the concepts shared are priceless and the Shambhavi Mahamudra is very effective and powerful...

[Ishanga]

9 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Not sure which Krishnamurti you're referring to but UG Krishnamurti doesn't believe in enlightenment.

 

Jiddu Krishnamurti

Indian philosopher and orator is the more famous of the Krishnamurti, Jiddu one is anti Guru and anti System, even though he did talks with thousands in attendance giving advice lol, he is very wise, more of a Intellectual than a Guru imo...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

Bruce Lee was heavily influenced by JD Krishnamurti, his whole Jeet Kune Do Martial Art is based on this...

 

Edited August 1 by Ishanga

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Not sure which Krishnamurti you're referring to but UG Krishnamurti doesn't believe in enlightenment.

 

I was thinking in jiddu Krishnamurti, quite fake imo, like mostly of the auto proclaimed enlightened 

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I was thinking in jiddu Krishnamurti, quite fake imo, like mostly of the auto proclaimed enlightened 

Jiddu creeps me out.

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Princess Arabia said:

Jiddu creeps me out.

12 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

 

Yeah, seems a narcissistic quite toxic

[UnbornTao]

On 31/07/2024 at 10:28 AM, Sugarcoat said:

Are you enlightened? How do you know this? I’ve been thinking the same tho, there being no real correlation between practice and enlightenment that it’s spontaneous, I don’t know that tho, just a guess 

Have had a couple of glimpses. Because all of those are relative. It is something that exists in relation to something else. Again, if we take the dream analogy, what is done within the dream is made of the dream. You can jump, scream and read but these are done within it; waking up is a sudden act and is not mediated by anything that preceded it, like dream events. There is no thing within the dream that is not part of it, so to speak. It is not a process either.

Yet, it seems that without a serious intention to wake up, awakening is very unlikely to occur for you. Hence, we do things within the dream, such as focusing on what waking up is about. Then, at some point, as if by magic, a breakthrough might occur.

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

4 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Had a couple of glimpses. Because all those are relative. It's something that exists in relation to something else. Again, if we take the dream analogy, what's done within the dream is made of the dream. You can jump scream and read but these are done within it; waking up is a sudden act and isn't mediated by anything that preceded it, like dream events. There's no thing within the dream that isn't part of it, so to speak. It isn't a process

I’d say I agree for the most part. The only thing I’d say is that certain things like psychedelics through action in the brain can give you glimpse so it seems some things can contribute to it. There being a kind of mechanism behind it.  But maybe only temporarily , not for the permanent thing, enlightenment, that seems spontaneous and independent mostly

 

[Sugarcoat]

7 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Yet, it seems that without having a real intention to wake up, awakening is very unlikely to occur for you. Hence, we do things within the dream, such as focusing on what waking up is about. Then, at some point, as if by magic, a breakthrough might occur.

Agree I wrote how I believe desire is important, wanting truth and hating the human existence so that’s similar 

[UnbornTao]

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

Jeez. And you call J. Krishnamurti fake.

The power of beautiful rhetoric to mislead people.

15 hours ago, Lila9 said:

I don't believe in enlightenment in the human lifetime. I have never met an enlightened human, nor read about one.

There is no human being in the world whose description or words have convinced me that they are enlightened. This is a myth, in my perception.

Enlightenment shouldn't be the goal.

You guys sure love to make stuff up. What about contemplating for some time?

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[Princess Arabia]

23 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Had a couple of glimpses. Because all those are relative. It's something that exists in relation to something else. Again, if we take the dream analogy, what's done within the dream is made of the dream. You can jump scream and read but these are done within it; waking up is a sudden act and isn't mediated by anything that preceded it, like dream events. There's no thing within the dream that isn't part of it, so to speak. It isn't a process.

Yet, it seems that without having a real intention to wake up, awakening is very unlikely to occur for you. Hence, we do things within the dream, such as focusing on what waking up is about. Then, at some point, as if by magic, a breakthrough might occur.

This response has so many gems in it. I read it like three times and each time was like reading it anew. I loved the dream analogy and how waking up just happens and everything within the dream is made of the dream. Also the "real intention" part. Only thing different I would say about that is some might not consciously set out to awaken but may not want to stay asleep, if that makes any sense. Also through tremendous suffering a spontaneous shift might occur.....stuff like that.

Edited August 1 by Princess Arabia

[UnbornTao]

17 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Can you be more precise about the made up stuff? 

Anything you think regarding enlightenment that isn't a direct consciousness. It is worthless and obstructs an open look into one's nature. If you want to know who you are, tackle the matter head on by questioning the subject.

[UnbornTao]

What's needed is consciousness on your part.

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Agree I wrote how I believe desire is important, wanting truth and hating the human existence so that’s similar 

You don't have to hate anything. As a matter of fact, having an open relationship towards our experience is functional and freeing.

Yes, wanting to know it. 

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

27 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

You have no idea whether I contemplate or not, you know nothing about me, and you have zero access to my mind.

I tell you, please stop wasting your time on me and focus on your own process. You know that minding others'  businesses distracts you from your path. So, do what you should do for the sake of your enlightenment, as you want it so badly (apparently not?) and leave me alone.

It is not personal so don't get me wrong. The way language is used gives clues as to where one is coming from. This applies to anyone. Let us call a belief by its name if we are interested at all in enlightenment, that's all.