Intelectual Knowledge x Embodied Knowledge

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

Mmm. Yes, on one level I repeated myself. But repeating myself was not my goal. Repeating myself was a result of a completely different intention.

A ha, so if you really look at your responses, you'll see that not all we do, not all we understand is a direct replica of who we really are; and I'm speaking on the human level. Also, a thief doesn't always think their action is OK. They may justify their thievery to themselves but not necessarily think it's ok. A thief also doesn't necessarily understands why they steal. You have put a thief into the conscious equation by saying understanding system.

[Salvijus]

8 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

A ha, so if you really look at your responses, you'll see that not all we do, not all we understand is a direct replica of who we really are; and I'm speaking on the human level. Also, a thief doesn't always think their action is OK. They may justify their thievery to themselves but not necessarily think it's ok. A thief also doesn't necessarily understands why they steal. You have put a thief into the conscious equation by saying understanding system.

"The way you respond or relate to the situation is a reflection of who you are on many levels"

This is simply the truth. You're set on disagreeing with this simple truth for personal reasons. 

 

Edited July 30 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

It is impossible to make an action without an identity. Hence every action will say what you identify with. And what you identify with goes hand in hand with your perception of reality, belief structure, value system etc. And your perception of reality, belief structure and value system is the measure for your wisdom (understanding) 

 

Edited July 30 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

There is nothing in life that is not connected to everything else in life.

You can read a person's past, present and future just from their fart. 

Edited July 30 by Salvijus

[Nemra]

@Salvijus

I smell something coming from you.

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, Nemra said:

@Salvijus

I smell something coming from you.

I smell conflict from you. And fear to express yourself more directly. 

[Mehwishqurayshi]

@CARDOZZO absolutely , without inner work , self help books can not help

[Davino]

18 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I understand. I guess I'm fully conscious.😜

Not so fast!

 

Unknown Unknown

Known Unknown

Known known 

=

Unconscious & Unperceived 

Conscious of your unconsciousness

Consciousness & Understanding

[Princess Arabia]

16 minutes ago, Davino said:

Not so fast!

 

Unknown Unknown

Known Unknown

Known known 

=

Unconscious & Unperceived 

Conscious of your unconsciousness

Consciousness & Understanding

Ok

[UnbornTao]

On 29/07/2024 at 7:16 PM, Salvijus said:

Everything that you do is a statement about who you are 

Who you are is shaped by how concious you are

How concious you are is how much you understand. 

What is it that you truly understand is reflected in everything that you do. 

Everything that you do is a statement about who you are 

Not who you are as your nature if actions nor experience can't change or influence that. 

Additionally, there is a trap of superficially adopting a persona and desired characteristics based on ideals of what it means to be awake. So-called spiritual individuals may attempt this so that they can be perceived as enlightened. This would be a pretension or a lie. The point is to come from an insight or consciousness that is genuine for you.

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 30/07/2024 at 6:58 AM, Salvijus said:

It is impossible to make an action without an identity. Hence every action will say what you identify with. And what you identify with goes hand in hand with your perception of reality, belief structure, value system etc. And your perception of reality, belief structure and value system is the measure for your wisdom (understanding) 

Are action and identity mutually inclusive? Do animals need an identity in order to act?

What is action and what are its components? Can you do something free from identity? 

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Also, there's the trap of superficially adopting a persona and desired characteristics based on our ideals of awake people. This is what so-called spiritual individuals may attempt to do so that they can be perceived by others as "enlightened." This would be a social pretension, or lie, whether convincing or not. The point is to come from an experience, insight or consciousness that is real for you

I'm not pretending, I'm just not hiding. 

Light is Grand by its very nature. But it isn't grandiose or arrogant or pretencious. There's a tendency for people to project arrogance unto people who live and breathe in the Grandness of God. Because all their lives they've known only the identity of littleness of the ego.Yet they thought that little ego is special and grand. And when they see true grandness that littleness gets offended when someone who they deem as "less than them" are displaying Grandness. That's a reaction from the mind that considers itself better than others unfortunately 

In short, the irony is, people who interpret the Grandness of Light as arrogance are actually doing so because of their own arrogance. 

I was trying to read between the lines of what you wrote and then reply. I don't know if I hit the mark. 

 

Edited July 31 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Are action and identity actually mutually inclusive? For example: Do animals need an identity in order to act?

Animals have self-preservation instinct. That's identity. 

You must have a sense of self in order to relate to the sense of other. Without the sense of self you're in nonduality. And you can't function. You're just absorbed into everything motionless samadhi. Coma. Whatever you wanna call it. You couldn't even maintain the body for long in that state. You'd go mahasamadhi. 

Edited July 31 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Certainly not who you are as one's nature since that doesn't change based on the actions you take. 

That's true. But I when I was saying "Everything that you do is a statement about who you are" I was pointing to the identity that you take yourself to be. 

[Keryo Koffa]

@Salvijus The way I interpreted your repeated ending was as a closing of a strange loop, inflecting and closing the cycle.

The authority reply was pretty profound, you'd have to become the things you seek to influence through transcendence.

On 7/29/2024 at 9:51 PM, Princess Arabia said:

So everybody is acting according to what the understand. So what is it that a thief understands.

On 7/29/2024 at 10:38 PM, Salvijus said:

A thief has an entire philosophy why stealing is okay, result of very complex belief/perception/understanding system. 

What is a "Thief" anyway? We make up rules, set boundaries, create individual and collective social systems with property and so forth. A thief might be a thief without knowing they're a thief, might not have a related philosophy at all, it might just be a projected label upon them.

In a deeper sense however, the concept of thieves existed basically forever and is easy to grasp, much has been said and some cases are more obvious and mutually agreed upon than others. To take from others, yet we take/lend food of the earth, we kill animals and steal their life and flesh when we have an abundance of resources. We steal each others energies through gossip, envy, malicious behavior, ego and steal our own energy as well. Time is being stolen by advertisements and institutions at all scales. People steal from the planet without caring to give anything back.

Focusing on petty thieves really does a disservice to the scale and potential of the argument.

18 hours ago, Davino said:

_____Unknown Unknown_____|__________Known Unknown___________|__________Known known___________

Unconscious & Unperceived  | Conscious of your unconsciousness | Consciousness & Understanding

Nice one! How about an unknown known? Like you forgot what you wanted to say but know you knew what it was.

9 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Certainly not who you are as one's nature since that doesn't change based on the actions you take.

What is one's nature? How come it doesn't change? Isn't that limiting? I thought infinity had no limits.

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

People who interpret the Grandness of Light as arrogance are actually doing so because of their own arrogance.

It's kinda good that they do though instead of hiding it away in an eco chamber. Confrontation allows progress.

And so they use whoever is highly conscious as a mirror but it's a smart non-dual mirror, that will boggle their minds.

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

You must have a sense of self in order to relate to the sense of other.

It's fascinating how far this concept stretches and how vital it is realized to be when awakened to.

[Keryo Koffa]

I think lots of positions here are well encapsulated in this old post, including @Salvijus' intentional "start end repeat":

On 12/12/2020 at 2:42 AM, Exystem said:

1. Just living life having no questions
2. People telling me about something called the brain
3. People telling me that good and wise people have found the brain while evil and dumb people are far away from the brain
4. Asking others where the brain is
5. Everyone tells me where they found the brain but they all seem to contradict each other
6. Asking others how they found the brain
7. People telling me they have found a particular book and saw the brain in there
8. Looking into these books and seeing lots of different brains, not knowing which is the one true brain
9. Asking a person considered to be truly good and wise which brain it is
10. The person tells me to look inside to find the one true brain
11. Looking inside not being able to find the brain
12. Believing I must be an evil and dump person, I’m far away from the brain,
because it’s neither inside of me nor anywhere close to me
13. Being quite disappointed, seriously asking myself where the brain could actually be
14. Realizing that the best and wisest people truly must have found the brain inside, because that’s the only place where you could never be far away from the brain
15. Asking myself how they must have found the brain
16. Finally realizing that they just found out the same - that the one true brain couldn't be anywhere else but inside
17. Telling everyone that I found out that the one true brain is inside of me and so can they find out for themselves
18. Realizing there has never been a place or a moment in time where anyone has ever been far away from the one true brain
19. Asking myself how one could ever come to believe that the one true brain has been lost
20. Realizing that the one true brain can actually never be found anywhere, neither outside nor inside, because it’s everywhere and nowhere at the same time
21. Telling everyone the one true brain is nowhere to find but the moment they finally stop searching for it, they will realize it in everything
22. Realizing there is not the slightest difference between me and the brain, the brain is hallucinating everyone including me/I am hallucinating everything including the brain
23. Telling bodies that nobody exists and trying to point out that no brain is the one true brain
24. Just living life having no questions

[UnbornTao]

On 31/07/2024 at 7:07 AM, Salvijus said:

I'm not pretending, I'm just not hiding. 

Light is Grand by its very nature. But it isn't grandiose or arrogant or pretencious. There's a tendency for people to project arrogance unto people who live and breathe in the Grandness of God. Because all their lives they've known only the identity of littleness of the ego.Yet they thought that little ego is special and grand. And when they see true grandness that littleness gets offended when someone who they deem as "less than them" are displaying Grandness. That's a reaction from the mind that considers itself better than others unfortunately 

In short, the irony is, people who interpret the Grandness of Light as arrogance are actually doing so because of their own arrogance. 

I was trying to read between the lines of what you wrote and then reply. I don't know if I hit the mark. 

I wasn't talking about you in particular. I was pointing out a dynamic that tends to happen, which may go like this: 

We read about Gautama being peaceful and magnanimous and compassionate. We miss that those traits arose for Gautama as side effects of the increased consciousness and understanding; they were natural expressions for him. Then, without the understanding, we go about adopting those characteristics as affectations, which might not arise authentically in us or to the same degree. So, for example, even though at times we may feel hurt and angry, we suppress these emotions and decide to put on a mask of a peaceful, calm spiritual persona.

Which is to say, action is action, who you are is who you are (identity). What's identified as oneself in this regard is the repeated behavior patterns you engage in, and those can be changed. We'd perhaps be talking about two different domains here. Enlightened people can do stupid and dysfunctional stuff, etc.

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 31/07/2024 at 7:09 AM, Salvijus said:

Animals have self-preservation instinct. That's identity. 

I don't know about that. Preservation instinct, yes. 

Quote

You must have a sense of self in order to relate to the sense of other. Without the sense of self you're in nonduality. And you can't function. You're just absorbed into everything motionless samadhi. Coma. Whatever you wanna call it. You couldn't even maintain the body for long in that state. You'd go mahasamadhi. 

Hmm.

Didn't we act when we were babies? What was there for us? We could act and there was not a conglomerate of past history and identity. 

@Keryo Koffa "What is one's nature?"

Get it yourself and then tell us about it. My contemplation goes loosely like this: get an honest sense of who you take yourself to be and question what that experience is about.

Edited August 1 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

I don't know about that. Preservation instinct, yes. 

The only way to have a desire to protect yourself is if you have a sense of self first. 

Animals also have fear. Fear, survival instinct, ego identity are one and the same. 

One who has no sense of self, does not interpret anything as a threat. Therefor feels no need to resist anything. Their conciousness and sense of self merges with the whole universe. And all sense of duality is gone. 

Your understanding of what identity is seems to lacking depth in my view. 

 

Edited August 1 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Enlightened people can do stupid and dysfunctional stuff, etc.

Truth is never stupid or disfunctional. Only ego can be stupid and disfunctional. 

To call someone who is expressing qualities of ego, beyond ego (enlightened) . Is a contradiction in terms. 

Edited August 1 by Salvijus