Intelectual Knowledge x Embodied Knowledge

[Davino]

@bambi What surprises me the most is how people on the forum that more accuse of arrogance, condescending attitudes and passive aggressiveness are the ones that most display it unconsciously.

[bambi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I took the questions very seriously.

I am mirroring the flippancy exhibited toward those aspects of reality which are seemingly valueless.

I agree.

The quality of your life depends on you recognizing that valueless things should not be so flippantly dismissed and overlooked.

Understood.

Let me try to understand you correctly. You are saying dont throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to intellectual understanding? Some elements of intellectual understand might not be so obvious in their immediate value proposition, or its utility to your immediate survival, but they are gems contained within it, that arent so obvious at first glance?

Thats what Im picking up from your posts, but struggling to get the gems your alluding to. Im not disagreeing or stating intellectualisation has 0 value, its surely a component of your worldview and paradigm

[bambi]

Just now, Davino said:

@bambi What surprises me the most is how people on the forum that more accuse of arrogance, condescending attitudes and passive aggressiveness are the ones that most display it unconsciously.

Yes agreed, at least you dont try to hide it!

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, bambi said:

Understood.

Let me try to understand you correctly. You are saying dont throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to intellectual understanding? Some elements of intellectual understand might not be so obvious in their immediate value proposition, or its utility to your immediate survival, but they are gems contained within it, that arent so obvious at first glance?

Thats what Im picking up from your posts, but struggling to get the gems your alluding to. Im not disagreeing or stating intellectualisation has 0 value, its surely a component of your worldview and paradigm

There are multiple subtle points on this issue:

1. Knowing the value of a thing can require extreme intelligence and lots of understanding for decades before you see the value.
2. The most important aspects of spirituality transcend the notion of value or utility.
3. Understanding transcends value and utility.
4. Understanding is its own end.
5. You can't embody a thing you don't understand.
6. Insufficient understanding will lead to corrupt embodiment.

I see a lot of spiritual people embodying stuff, but what they are embodying is human spiritual bullshit.

Edited July 29 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There are multiple subtle points on this issue:

1. Knowing the value of a thing can require extreme intelligence and lots of understanding for decades before you see the value.
2. The most important aspects of spirituality transcend the notion of value or utility.
3. Understanding transcends value and utility.
4. Understanding is its own end.
5. You can't embody a thing you don't understand.
6. Insufficient understanding will lead to corrupt embodiment.

I see a lot of spiritual people embodying stuff, but what they are embodying is human spiritual bullshit.

 

Thanks for expanding

1. Agreed, makes sense
2. Can you elaborate, Im not sure how you can do any action including spiritual understanding if you didnt at some level assess it as value. Further Im making a claim all activity, including spiritual understanding is entailed by a value proposition. I.e. this acitivty is valuable. How why and what value it holds is myriad. Further without any value proposition at all, things could only be arbitrary. 
3. See above, I dont see how this can be true. You can say Understanding becomes its own value, but thats not the same as what your saying it seems
4. Okay maybe you are saying the aabove
5. Agreed, makes sense
6. Agreed, makes sense

I dont see the inverse analysis though: there is myriad things you can understand that hold little to no value if not embodied.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, bambi said:

 

Thanks for expanding

1. Agreed, makes sense
2. Can you elaborate, Im not sure how you can do any action including spiritual understanding if you didnt at some level assess it as value. Further Im making a claim all activity, including spiritual understanding is entailed by a value proposition. I.e. this acitivty is valuable. How why and what value it holds is myriad. Further without any value proposition at all, things could only be arbitrary. 
3. See above, I dont see how this can be true. You can say Understanding becomes its own value, but thats not the same as what your saying it seems
4. Okay maybe you are saying the aabove
5. Agreed, makes sense
6. Agreed, makes sense

I dont see the inverse analysis though: there is myriad things you can understand that hold little to no value if not embodied.

Depends on how you wanna look at it.

You can call understanding is its own value. That will make more sense in your paradigm.

In a sense, it is an insult to God to try to place value on it. Which is why I avoid that frame.

What is the value of Infinity?

For me, pure understanding trumps any and all embodiment because without understanding you have nothing but illusions.

What are you so busy to embody? An illusion? Okay, have fun with that.

Notice: Your #1 problem in life is that you don't understand anything.

Edited July 29 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

23 minutes ago, Davino said:

@bambi What surprises me the most is how people on the forum that more accuse of arrogance, condescending attitudes and passive aggressiveness are the ones that most display it unconsciously.

And, yet, that is also Love.
 

 

Edited July 29 by Yimpa

[bambi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Depends on how you wanna look at it.

You can call understanding is its own value. That will make more sense in your paradigm.

In a sense, it is an insult to God to try to place value on it. Which is why I avoid that frame.

For me, pure understanding trumps any and all embodiment because without understanding you have nothing but illusions.

What are you so busy to embody? An illusion? Okay, have fun with that.

But for me it seems the ultimate divide between understanding and embodiment is imaginery. To absolutely and truly understand something would be to fully embody it. You seem to divide the two as independant. That distinction doesnt seem clear to me

 

[Yimpa]

16 minutes ago, bambi said:

Further Im making a claim all activity, including spiritual understanding is entailed by a value proposition. I.e. this acitivty is valuable. How why and what value it holds is myriad.

Zoom out, my friend 

https://www.actualized.org/forum/discover/

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, bambi said:

To absolutely and truly understand something would be to fully embody it.

I suggest that this is actually impossible.

Your understanding must always exceed your embodiment.

Contemplate why that is.

Edited July 29 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

1 minute ago, Yimpa said:

Zoom out, my friend 

https://www.actualized.org/forum/discover/

Sorry this is lost on me, what is this?

Are you trying to dictate or impose onto me who and what conversation I can or should engage in? Are you being serious?

[bambi]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I suggest that this is actually impossible.

Your understanding must always exceed your embodiment.

Contemplate why that is.

Always? Even at death? 

Are you saying that understanding always precedes embodiment, or that there are some things that you understand that its impossible to be embodied at all even at death? Or some understandings can only be embodied at death lol, or some understandings are trans-human, to embody would be to die etc etc

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, bambi said:

Always? Even at death? 

Are you saying that understanding always precedes embodiment, or that there are some things that you understand that its impossible to be embodied at all even at death? Or some understandings can only be embodied at death lol, or some understandings are trans-human, to embody would be to die etc etc

I wasn't talking about death.

Leave death out of it.

If you are dead there is nothing to embody.

When people speak of embodiment they are talking about life.

Edited July 29 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I wasn't talking about death.

Leave death out of it.

If you are dead there is nothing to embody.

When people speak of embodiment they are talking about life.

Okay got it, so your basically either stating

There are trans-human understandings, which transcend typical human experience and should be pursued for their own sake, possibly offering intellectual or philosophical insights beyond practical applications.

There are intra-human understandings that are rooted in human experience but might be too difficult or impossible to fully embody, or that might not provide any significant value if embodied, making the effort potentially useless.

I dont see any other outcomes so far

[Nemra]

You trying to embody a thing implies that an understanding has happened before that.

Edited July 29 by Nemra

[Leo Gura]

@bambi You understand how child molestation works. Do you embody it?

What you embody is a tiny fraction of your understanding. And that's not a mistake.

Edited July 29 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@bambi You understand how child molestation works. Do you embody it?

What you embody is a tiny fraction of your understanding.

Sure, but thats becuase I dont want to embody it, it isnt valuable or beneficial, or rather its totally destructive.

I also cant say I fully understand child molestation, I understand the outlines and mechanics to certain degree, but I certainly dont know what its like to be one, theres a whole host of emotional, psychological and behavioural facets I have no real understanding of, I can only do gross inaccurate inferences

Further Id make the claim there is a limit of your pure understanding before embodiment has to happen, else no further depth is possible.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, bambi said:

Sure, but thats becuase I dont want to embody it, it isnt valuable or beneficial, or rather its totally destructive.

You can't know that until you understand it.

There's no way around understanding. Everything you do assumes understanding.

Edited July 29 by Leo Gura

[bambi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You can't know that until you understand it.

I would say you only need to understand something to a certain leve of depth to make a valid value proposition. I dont need absolute understanding of child molestation (i.e. living infitinely as all possible child molestors), to make the call I dont want to do it. I simply only need to assess the value of the process (obessesing about children, the emotional trauma that comes with that, the isolation, pain and suffering) and outcomes (harm to myself, children, family, society, the humungous guilt, shame remorse etc etc) ffrom whatever vantage point I have now. Its a heuristic.

[Yimpa]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And that's not a mistake.