Is 5meo worth it?

[Paradoxed]

I have been contemplating the safety of 5meo-DMT.

I only have a bit of experience with the substance, and have only "crossed the threshold" once, experiencing a deep fear, a scary body response, followed by an eternal nothingness. Then, I was overcome with the deepest gratitude I have ever felt to be alive coming back, and deep appreciation for the dream we call life. I could tell that I was "creating reality", and that I loved dreaming, and that I chose to "go back to sleep". I knew I was alone. Fully alone. I now know without a question of a doubt I am God, and that reality is entirely mental projection. This has required much integration and understanding.

Since then, I have used the drug in much smaller doses, usually as a meditative tool. My ROA was always vaping, or I would sprinkle some freebase 5meo with marijuana.

I can not bring myself to try for a full-release again for multiple reasons. Every single time I do 5meo, I have a very similar response. An increase in heart rate, very shallow breathing, then what feels like very low blood pressure and a slowed heart rate.

I always just convinced myself this drug is generally safe, especially in small doses. And these effects are no big deal. This seems to be the consensus on this forum.

But recently, I experienced something very scary. On a very small dose, I experienced a distinct heart palpitation. My heart was already beating very slowly. It felt almost like my heart was remembering to beat. I felt intense fear. Like I could kill myself by going any deeper or letting go. In that moment an intuitive voice notioned to me, almost like a sort of divine intervention.

"This drug will actually kill you, for real, not just psychological death, but real death. Cardiac arrest."

I have experienced ego-death on other psychedelics before, and have had horrible trips, but I have never felt something like that. This was real, and there is no convincing me otherwise. In that moment I knew how deeply dangerous this drug could be. I still feel this, and in a sense, am looking to others to convince me I am wrong or just overreacting.

I will preface this by saying I have not had any tests done on my heart before experimenting with this substance. I could have some problem. Also, I realize heart palpitations can be normal, and are not always a sign for alarm, but this intuitive voice needed to be heard. I truly believe this drug can cause serious problems with your cardiac or respiratory system.

Right now I plan on never touching 5meo again.

I know what most here will say including what Leo has said before- "You would not have actually died etc, nobody has died off that low of a dose"

People will also say "low doses are harder on the body- you didn't do enough".

In this thread, the user puporing claims to having almost died from boofing 15mg of 5meo.
 

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My body simply could not handle it in this pure form (and too high a dose for me) it seems and it went very quick the way up, sent me straight to shutting my body down (freezing me up, losing awareness and ability to breathe) and into a full panic mode. I vomited hard for some time and struggled to stay conscious/aware so I can keep breathing. I was being pulled hard into "unconsciousness"/blackout (due to the insanely high state of consciousness it had thrown me into). I don't know what would've happened if I didn't struggle to stay the hell alert and let it work its way through (a combination of non-resistence and fighting to stay conscious).

This was a lesson for me personally and not to poo poo on things. But it was quite serious and I think people should exercise caution and definitely, definitely go with a much lower dose to try if they wanted to use research grade chemicals.

Personally I will stick with less pure forms from now on in the forseeable future (ie, mushrooms). 

Not going to lie, happy to be back, it's making me appreciate my life alot more already. ?

Leo responded:

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It wouldn't have killed you. You're overreacting because it took you by surprise and you went into a panic.. Maybe you would have passed out.

20mg of 5-MeO will not kill a person.

5-MeO takes getting used to. Just lower your dose and try again. You will come to love it.

Why do you want something less pure? That is silly. Just get your dose right. Don't be scared off from 5-MeO. 1 trip is nothing.

You should be happy that you can trip balls on such low doses. Try 5mg and 10mg.

I can't help but feel like Leo was wrong. Without a proper facilitator, @puporing could have died. They could have passed out, vomited and choked, could've stopped breathing, could've had a seizure, could've tried to get up and fallen and hit his head. I feel they could've also gone into cardiac arrest. Puporing was also experimenting without a facilitator.

I would go so far as to say you could die for real, even with an experienced facilitator, and they may not be able to save you.

In the thread, people argue with puporing, saying that he/she would've been fine, that his/her former experiences of ego death were not ego death, and this was real ego death, etc. Puporing insists it was not just "struggling to breathe" but that he/she was suffocating. Puporing claims commenters were gaslighting their former trips and experiences of ego death in the past to claim "you were just experiencing ego death for the first time, you only thought you had experienced it before."

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You're still gaslighting me about ego death. It was not my ego dying (that part I have literally zero issues with).

It was my body shutting down, my awareness shutting down, and my experience of that is valid, and then fighting for my life was valid. You can interpret it however you want but don't go around spreading it as some higher truth than my experience. 

I know ego death comes with a physical feeling of dying. This usually happens with ego-death. But part of the problem with 5meo-dmt is that the entire point of the drug is to "die". So in a sense, people will downplay the reports from people claiming to have "almost died". But I am trying to parse how much of this experience is actually BECAUSE you are dying physically, or are coming close enough to physical death that you are experiencing the ego dissolution, then as the drug wears off, you survive, and feel this "gratitude for life and appreciation for the dream" simply because you survived.

Psychologically there are obviously dangers, but I'm more focused on real dangers to the body. A part of me wants to go back and explore this substance on a deeper level. There is some calling to try this again, or 5meo-MALT or DiPT if those are somehow safer. But this has freaked me the fuck out and I can't help but make this post.

In Leo's video introduction of 5meo, he recommends snorting about 20mgs of 5meo for your first experience. I can't help but feel that this is incredibly dangerous, especially for a "normie" who might stumble across his video.

Here is a link to the health problems reported from people on Erowid:

https://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_5MeODMT_Health_Problems.shtml

Seizure and convulsions from insufflation (15-25mg doses), Blacking out, flailing limbs, falling, Short term breathing problems during the experience, Long term breathing problems, Memory loss- short-term and long-term (think alzheimer's), Cardiovascular effects ( rapid heartbeat, slow heart beat, heart palpitations), Muscle spasms, Nausea are all reported.

I will say most of these reports are from incorrect dosages or mixing with other drugs. DO NOT TAKE 5MEO WITH AN MAOI!

DO NOT DO 5meo IF YOU HAVEN'T HAD PROPER SLEEP!

There have been reported deaths from 5meo. Most people explain these away by saying it was in combination with other stuff, like ibogaine and MAOI's. Does anyone have an idea of the total number of deaths associated with this drug?

There is at least one user on reddit I saw who claimed he died (for real) on 5meo. His heart stopped and he was resuscitated. I worry that there are many more associated deaths with 5meo that we simply are not aware of, and many more incidences of cardiac arrest and seizures that we aren't aware of. I don't know if there are other deaths going unreported? It seems very possible. When someone dies from a drug OD, do they always autopsy? This is a genuine question.

I don't know why it feels like most people think this drug is generally safe. They preface this by saying "If you don't have heart problems or epilepsy you will be fine." But do you really know how healthy you are? Do you know if you have a heart complication? I understand that most people understand the risks but I can't help but feel like it is downplayed a lot, when we really don't know how dangerous this stuff would be if it were more popular, if there were more clinical studies,  how many people would be admitted for seizures or cardiac arrest, how many people would be dead.

If you search online, it's almost all positives of this drug, cures depression, anxiety, PTSD, alcoholism, etc. I feel like some of these sites or publications are biased, present all the studies showing the benefits of the drug, without mentioning potential death/danger.

This that what worries me about Leo:

-Leo has also said things like "You can't throw up when you haven't eaten anything for 4 hours in advance" seemingly trying to convince people not to worry about doing 5meo alone. But others here have claimed that they didn't eat in advance, and still ended up throwing up. This is concerning to suggest people are generally safe to do this drug alone without a facilitator if they don't eat in advance.

-There is a video somewhere of Leo talking about doing 5meo while in his bathtub (incredibly dangerous behavior and irresponsible).

-Leo did 5meo-DMT every day for 30 days (that's his choice but people look up to him and replicate his actions. To many people he is their spiritual guru)

-Leo has health problems he is not disclosing to his audience after a long history with this substance. He has not discussed whether his health problems have anything to do with his 5meo use or drug use. If it is regarding his drug use he needs to disclose more information as he has many people following him thinking 5meo is safe.

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Random links:

This article lists the effects of 5meo dmt, on sheep, cats, mice, and monkeys. Effects include lethal effects- staggers, ataxia, mydriasis, head nodding, sham rage, stringy salivation, tremors, convulsions, hypothermia, tachycardia, and respitory failure. It's safe to assume all these symptoms are possible for humans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3028383/

Seizure after 10mg dose-

https://www.reddit.com/r/5MeODMT/comments/owsol7/looking_for_insight_on_first_5meo_experience/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Neurological Damage/Epilepsy-

https://www.reddit.com/r/5MeODMT/comments/s2e6o6/can_5meodmt_cause_neurological_damage_or_epilepsy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

(This person claims 5meo is a poison, and caused neurological damage and epilepsy. He is wrong about the poison thing. I don't really believe his claims but don't want to dismiss his xperience either)

Death from 5meo-DMT:

https://academic.oup.com/jat/article-abstract/29/8/838/716730?redirectedFrom=PDF

Death from 5meo-DiPT:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7366431_A_fatal_poisoning_with_5-methoxy-NN-diisopropyltryptamine_Foxy

Rhabdomyolysis After Ingestion of 5meo-DiPT:

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)61905-8/fulltext

Here's an article going in depth on Octavius Rettig, a gentleman responsible for deaths related to 5meo (he's a total psychopath). Be incredibly careful with facilitators who claim to know what they are doing. You may be going to a facilitator charging you thousands of dollars who could overdose you. They may not even know CPR. They could ruin your entire life:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-pied-piper-of-psychedelic-toads

Dangers Of Excessive 5-MeO-DMT and How to Protect Yourself and Loved Ones From Harm | Chad Charles-

 

Here is that same podcast criticizing Leo and his irresponsible approach. They mention a friend that died from doing 5meo-

 

Any more useful links?

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I am trying to address this without fear-mongering. If it wasn't for this intuition I would just think 5meo is generally safe. But any drug that is playing with your heart, giving you difficulty breathing, and induces seizures is NOT SAFE! Does anyone have an idea of how many people have died from 5meo-DMT? I heard somewhere between 10-15 reported deaths. It seems incredibly difficult to get an accurate number.

If I changed ROA would it be less intense and safer on the body? I thought this, and considered boofing or snorting, until I read puporing's report after boofing, and the report of the seizure after a 10mg insufflated dose.

I am not a doctor or scientist. I am just some dude that likes psychedelics, so don't jump down my throat. But I feel completely insane when I see people talking about doing 5meo the way they do. Doing it very regularly at high doses or mixing with other drugs. Or doing it alone. People also like combining 5meo with MDMA. Seems incredibly dangerous.

5meo is addressed so casually here on this forum.

I feel like we should stop acting like this is some magic drug for enlightenment that is "generally safe". I can't help but feel like this sentiment comes with a large amount of hubris. Most other psychedelics are safer than 5meo. I have experienced ego death on mushrooms and regular n,n-DMT.  People sell 5meo as a magical "enlightenment drug" that will surely help your life and awaken you for good. This is not even true. I worry very strongly for the safety surrounding 5meo as this gets popular.

 

P.S. I don't want to give Leo too hard of a time and had to edit to give Leo some love. Responsibility falls on the user, and Leo is navigating uncharted territory a lot of the time with these substances. He is a huge advocate for psychedelics, and he does an amazing job parsing this stuff. His intention is not to lead you into danger. It is your responsibility to be safe and have a proper foundation yourself. And if Leo is doing this drug alone, it is because he is particularly familiar with the drug. So as a listener or follower of Leo, don't just follow in Leo's footsteps, listen to your body and make sure you are doing it safely. You have to start at incredibly low doses and work up to a bigger dose. Get a mg scale, don't mix compounds, no MAOI's, and have a facilitator.

Edited July 24 by Paradoxed

[What Am I]

I'd say you're on the right track in thinking 5meo stands above most other psychedelics, both in potential risk and reward. I can't help but wonder if it affects different people in different ways though. I've had countless trips at low, medium, and high doses, and I've only experienced the loss of breath a single time. It sounds to me like you're getting that effect frequently.

I think the best advice someone could give you is to simply stop using it if it feels like it puts your life in peril. That's pretty atypical, and probably not something you should try to plow through. 5meo isn't a necessity in life, but rather an optional booster to meditation.

[What Am I]

29 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

I feel like we should stop acting like this is some magic drug for enlightenment that is "generally safe". I can't help but feel like this sentiment comes with a large amount of hubris. There are much safer psychedelics. Most of them are safer. I have experienced ego death on mushrooms and regular n,n-DMT.  People sell 5meo as a magical "enlightenment drug" that will surely help your life and awaken you for good. This is not even true. I worry very strongly for the safety surrounding 5meo as this gets popular.

5meo is definitely special in comparison to something like mushrooms and DMT, or pretty much any other psychedelic. It really is meditation in drug form, and I think chances are high that endogenous 5meo plays a part in successful sober meditation. There are safer psychedelics, but they're just not the equivalent.

I think most people mischaracterize the role 5meo should play. Many see it as an answer in and of itself. But it should be looked at like a tool, and one that should perhaps be put down when it outlives its usefulness. People have accomplished the goal of enlightenment throughout history without even realizing 5meo exists. It's not a prerequisite, and there's probably a lot of truth to the notion of risks being tied to shortcuts.

[Paradoxed]

37 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I'd say you're on the right track in thinking 5meo stands above most other psychedelics, both in potential risk and reward. I can't help but wonder if it affects different people in different ways though. I've had countless trips at low, medium, and high doses, and I've only experienced the loss of breath a single time. It sounds to me like you're getting that effect frequently.

I think the best advice someone could give you is to simply stop using it if it feels like it puts your life in peril. That's pretty atypical, and probably not something you should try to plow through. 5meo isn't a necessity in life, but rather an optional booster to meditation.

I dont know if it is described best as a loss of breath, or just needing to "remember to breathe" and control my breath, like if I didnt control it I would stop breathing. This is definitely great advice.

I could also be simply convincing myself its having whatever effect because of some level of panic/anxiety. 

29 minutes ago, What Am I said:

5meo is definitely special in comparison to something like mushrooms and DMT, or pretty much any other psychedelic. It really is meditation in drug form, and I think chances are high that endogenous 5meo plays a part in successful sober meditation. There are safer psychedelics, but they're just not the equivalent.

I would have to agree, which is why I was taking low doses and found them very beneficial. 

That being said you can acheive similar non dual states on many psychedelics with less risks. Its just not a garunteed experience like 5meo.

30 minutes ago, What Am I said:

I think most people mischaracterize the role 5meo should play. Many see it as an answer in and of itself. But it should be looked at like a tool, and one that should perhaps be put down when it outlives its usefulness. People have accomplished the goal of enlightenment throughout history without even realizing 5meo exists. It's not a prerequisite, and there's probably a lot of truth to the notion of risks being tied to shortcuts.

This is really important. 

Part of this post is just to point out how some of Leos content makes you feel as a listener, as if this drug is the answer, and if you are doing consciousness work you need to try it!

That line of reasoning in and of itself can be dangerous or risky Id say.

It can hurt as much as it helps you, could kill you and ruin your life. It could also save your life. 

[What Am I]

26 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

I dont know if it is described best as a loss of breath, or just needing to "remember to breathe" and control my breath, like if I didnt control it I would stop breathing. This is definitely great advice.

Right, good clarification. It was the same for me. It was as if the involuntary function of breathing just turned off, and it was pretty alarming. I believe 5meo is triggering a natural parasympathetic process that you typically see in meditation, where the breath slows to a crawl and eventually seemingly stops. But for this to occur at the wrong time, such as in the middle of an intense trip when your heart is racing, it may be like a kind of short circuit that actually is dangerous.

26 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

That being said you can acheive similar non dual states on many psychedelics with less risks. Its just not a garunteed experience like 5meo.

Yep, good point. I just love the guaranteed nature of 5meo though. It feels like gambling to use anything else, where you might end up with some kind of bizarre and demented trip, something neutral, or something heavenly. 5meo's power and consistency has me at the point where I'm about ready to drop all other psychedelics.

26 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

This is really important. 

Part of this post is just to point out how some of Leos content makes you feel as a listener, as if this drug is the answer, and if you are doing consciousness work you need to try it!

That line of reasoning in and of itself can be dangerous or risky Id say.

It can hurt as much as it helps you, could kill you and ruin your life. It could also save your life. 

That may be, but I guess it's just the way Leo's chosen to go about it in his own life, and by extension how he's chosen to share it with the world. No doubt he's seem some crazy shit on strong trips. It's unfortunate if it leads some people astray, and it's really unfortunate if anyone gets hurt, but I guess the responsibility ultimately falls on the individual. If some of us see things differently, the best we can do is share our own experience and advice.

Edited July 22 by What Am I

[Paradoxed]

@What Am I I'm 100 percent with you. Thank you for your perspective and the nuance you've brought to this.

One thing that's for sure, I appreciate my life much more after 5meo, and can maneuver this realm with much more understanding. It's ironic that I'm speaking to potentially dying from 5meo. I fear death, don't get me wrong, but I fear it much less than I ever have after 5meo, because I understand how my life is illusionary. I am not my little life, I know I am eternal. I am infinite and everything. 5meo has helped me.

Still, ego is there. I do not want to die.

Do you think people get over their fear of death for good after using 5meo? Therefore, not fearing physical death, or potential long term sides effects of the drug and continuing use?

Edited July 23 by Paradoxed

[What Am I]

38 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

Do you think people get over their fear of death for good after using 5meo? Therefore, not fearing physical death, or potential long term sides effects of the drug and continuing use?

I'm still quite afraid of death myself, despite everything I've experienced. It's just so easy to be attached to our existence as a body.

I think to get past it completely, you'd have to be heavily conscious in a more holistic way beyond just the standard awareness of being God by itself. It'd probably require an additional mastery on the subtle level, where it's experienced that the individual expression (soul) is using the body as a type of container which can be discarded. The subtle is often very much overlooked in favor of diving headfirst into the causal, with no regard or knowledge of the intermediary realms of being. Zen would be a pretty clear example of this, and I believe it's to its detriment.

Ken Wilber lays out a similar case here. Though I'd by no means consider him as having a mastery of the subtle at the level I'm talking about. I'm guessing it'd be an unbelievably rare individual who'd actually achieve that.

*Skip to about 15 mins to hear Ken's thoughts.

Edited July 22 by What Am I

[Paradoxed]

@What Am I The subtle bodies seems to be left out of these conversations.

What he said about transcendence with inclusion seems very important. It's not all about transcending and getting to source, it's about acknowledgement of source, subtle, and material, without overlooking any of them!

Ken Wilber is amazing. It's hard to claim who is a master, but he has a very deep understanding. I have "A Brief History of Everything" in the mail and really look forward to reading it. It will be my first book of his after much listening to him on youtube.

This conversation is leaving me with much to think about! It seems tricky to acknowledge these intermediary realms. There is a lot of counter intuitiveness in approach. You must overcome the gross material realm and disidentify, while still acknowledging and respecting that stage. And as you climb the ladder of development, you must continue to build.

If you ascend without incorporating, you end up with bad results. It's all about balance and finding that middle ground between top and bottom- that's where the joy lies.

There is much exploration, and mastery to do on my end.

[What Am I]

4 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

The subtle bodies seems to be left out of these conversations.

Seemingly all the time for whatever reason. I feel somewhat alone in giving it attention or even acknowledging its existence. It's like a hidden key in understanding the specifics of how spirituality works. A kind of connective tissue between the mundane and the ultimate.

4 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

Ken Wilber is amazing. It's hard to claim who is a master, but he has a very deep understanding.

Yeah, he's great. One of my favorites for sure and highly recommended. When I'm talking about mastery in this context, I'm setting the bar obscenely high towards supernatural levels.

6 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

There is much exploration, and mastery to do on my end.

Same here, good luck!

[Paradoxed]

5 minutes ago, What Am I said:

When I'm talking about mastery in this context, I'm setting the bar obscenely high towards supernatural levels.

If anyone has mastered this they are invincible.

[Thought Art]

No one knows how it will react with them. 
 

Ive had some sketchy moments when gone too deep. 
 

But, physically for most people I think it’s pretty safe. 
 

It’s always a risk though. 

Edited July 24 by Thought Art

[Yimpa]

5MeO is like rolling an infinite amount of dice in Monopoly bruh..

[Jodistrict]

I don’t recommend doing a full dose alone.  My only experience is with Bufo Alvarius.   I talked to a facilitator who had someone’s heart stop and had to do CPR.  The other danger is if you are deep in a trance you can forget to breath.   You can also move into some dangerous position, start choking, moving around violently,  or any other number of things.  The facilitator’s responsibility is to keep you safe.  I do microdose alone, but only after four years of ceremonies.

[Exystem]

Thanks for sharing @Paradoxed!

I appreciate a critical view on the substance and I am interested how other members will respond to this. You did good research. As always, the dosage makes the poison, but I wasn't aware yet that 5-meo belongs to another category of "be cautious with that substance!".

[Paradoxed]

7 minutes ago, Exystem said:

Thanks for sharing @Paradoxed!

I appreciate a critical view on the substance and I am interested how other members will respond to this. You did good research. As always, the dosage makes the poison, but I wasn't aware yet that 5-meo belongs to another category of "be cautious with that substance!".

No, thank you for your comment.

The benefits probably outweigh the risks for most people here doing consciousness work, so many will not engage.

[Exystem]

3 minutes ago, Paradoxed said:

The benefits probably outweigh the risks for most people here doing consciousness work, so many will not engage.

I think so, too. But I wasn't aware of serious long-term risks until now. And it's an interesting hypothesis that some effect of that drug may actually be due to the resemblence of actual physical death, not just ego death (which are not easy to seperate at second glance btw).

Anyways, a great substance with huge potential, no question.

[Jodistrict]

There is also the possibility of long term benefits.  I know one entrepreneur who takes Bufo and says it improves his ability to think and solve problems.

[Paradoxed]

3 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

There is also the possibility of long term benefits.  I know one entrepreneur who takes Bufo and says it improves his ability to think and solve problems.

There are many long term benefits! 100%

[Schizophonia]

It depends of people.

I don't do well at all with it. Lots of nausea, heavy bodyload in general and It's just too psychologically destabilizing.

[shree]

47 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It depends of people.

I don't do well at all with it. Lots of nausea, heavy bodyload in general and It's just too psychologically destabilizing.

I think everyone reacts to 5-MeO-DMT like this.

It would be strange to expect anything less from a substance that provides such a radical experience in a matter of seconds.