Bummer news on the popular belief that quantum physics proves obsrvtn shapes reality

[Emotionalmosquito]

At 28:28 of this video Dave explains how the only reason it seems that observation affects the behavior of particles is because the tools themselves interfere with them. You can’t look at stuff at this level without any technical interference. The photons from the microscope used to observe influences the particles or something like that.

Not because the simple act of looking at them is changing anything.

So now what? This was believed to be the only piece of hard evidence that consciousness creates reality. What’s everyone’s take on this?

[LastThursday]

Yeah I think the word observation is an unfortunate choice as it leads people up the garden path. A better word is measurement.

If you think about it, any measurement must interfere with the thing it's measuring, no matter how light the touch - no weirdness there. The actual weirdness in quantum mechanics is what measurement does to the outcome of the experiment: in the double slit case turning interference fringing into two solid bars (the famous wave particle duality).

It seems like QM fundamentally really does work probabilistically, the intereference patterns are actually probabilistic in nature (e.g. the rainbow colours seen on CDs). Seen this way it's completely obvious that depending on how you measure, this has to affect the probabilities differently, which means the result of the experiment is different. In other words the result of the experiment depends on how you take measurements. QM is especially sensitive to measurement, because the measuring devices themselves are ultimately quantum in nature too and interfere strongly with the system under scrutiny.

In none of the above does consciounsess come into the picture (if you're a materialist).

However. To measure something always requires some sort of indelible record. With QM you're measuring something totally invisible and percolating it up to a level where it can be observed by consciousness. In short, amplification - microscopic processes are amplified to macroscopically visible processes. That process of amplification is always a chaotic one (involving many processes), and may be especially prone to intereference from many sources (maybe including consciousness itself).

Anyway, there's experimental evidence of thought affecting QM systems. Maybe thought is a kind of measurement?

 

Edited July 22 by LastThursday

[Leo Gura]

Your mind is hallucinating science.

And Quantum Dave is a fool.

Edited July 22 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your mind is hallucinating science.

And Quantum Dave is a fool.

 

[Extreme Z7]

3 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

At 28:28 of this video Dave explains how the only reason it seems that observation affects the behavior of particles is because the tools themselves interfere with them. You can’t look at stuff at this level without any technical interference. The photons from the microscope used to observe influences the particles or something like that.

Not because the simple act of looking at them is changing anything.

This is genuine misinformation. If the answer to the double-slit experiment were that simple, it would have been thrown out decades ago.

Keep in mind, there's an unclaimed Nobel prize for explaining the double-slit experiment. But Dave is clearly peddling bullshit to be taken seriously by Science and Academia. And what Science and Academia does take seriously is still not adequate to explain Quantum Mechanics.

3 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

This was believed to be the only piece of hard evidence that consciousness creates reality.

Bollocks! Citation Needed.

Edited July 22 by Extreme Z7

[DocWatts]

Thing is, that's not the only empirical evidence that perception shapes Reality. Far from it in fact.

I would encourage you to investigate the phenomenology of color perception, and how it challenges the outdated idea that colors are objectively 'out there' in some external Reality.

Edited July 22 by DocWatts

[DocWatts]

If you're interested, this is a quick Claude AI summary of the phenomonology of Color Perception, from a book called 'The Embodied Mind : Cognative Science And Human Experience' (a book I'd highly recommend).

• Color is not inherent in objects, but arises from the interaction between an organism and its environment
• Color perception is shaped by our embodied experiences and sensorimotor capacities
• Colors are not fixed categories, but flexible and context-dependent
• Cultural and linguistic factors influence color perception and categorization
• The book challenges the idea of color as an objective property that exists independently of perceivers
• Instead, it proposes an enactive approach where color emerges from the dynamic coupling of organism and environment

[tuku747]

4 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

At 28:28 of this video Dave explains how the only reason it seems that observation affects the behavior of particles is because the tools themselves interfere with them. You can’t look at stuff at this level without any technical interference. The photons from the microscope used to observe influences the particles or something like that.

Not because the simple act of looking at them is changing anything.

So now what? This was believed to be the only piece of hard evidence that consciousness creates reality. What’s everyone’s take on this?

A particle literally doesn't exist as a local particle until it is measured with another photon.  Until then, the particle is a waveform probability cloud; potentially anywhere at a given time.

The assertion that consciousness doesn't affect reality doesn't understand what consciousness is, or what reality is.

Consciousness is Light. You are Consciousness. You Are The Light of The World. You're the Light of The Sun looking at itself.

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, because you are looking at your method of looking; You're looking at your own Light. When you observe, you are not measuring something "out there"; you are measuring your mind! The same is true for the scientist. You view the scientist and his study in your mind too!

See the issue for so called "objective science" here? You are trying to measure an object in your mind with your mind; You are trying to measure the very object you are using to measure. It's like trying to measure a ruler with the same ruler. It is it's own length by definition. How can science ever hope to be "objective" if the scientist is necessarily a subjective entity?

The best way to understand how this works is to experience it first-hand. You can do this in a few ways: In a Lucid Dream, in a psychedelic trip, or in a state of meditation.

The Lucid Dream is perhaps the most accessible example. Upon realizing that one is dreaming, it is recommended that one looks at their hands. It is likely that your hands will look quite strange at first, but the more you look at them, the more they will morph to your expectation/suggestion. Again, when you're looking your hands, you're not looking at something "outside of you"; Everything you see is your mind.

So, at first my hands looked quite deformed in the dream; then as I turned my focus on them I began to understand how I was creating their form, and I recontructed by hands from memory; then I looked deeper and deeper into the ridges of my fingerprints of my hands; and behold, I was peering into The Grand Canyon.

Now, get to the point where you can see this while in the waking dream. Then you will know that you are creating everything that you are looking at from within; and everything you've postulated as somehow "outside of" this is in your mind too.

Edited July 23 by tuku747

[tuku747]

Consciousness is Light!

You are warm; you are glowing in your shape;

You are THE LIGHT!

Everything that you see is reflecting and radiating in your LIGHT!

Even your seeing of it is radiating! 

The Light that you emit is interacting with what you're observing/measuring and becoming colored! The light that you emit is what you're observing! When you see something in your mind, that configuration of mind is radiated as LIGHT. The Light shapes the electromagnetic potentials around you. It's all potential in flux.

The mind is the exploration of potentials by actualizing them into Light! The Light shapes the matter, because the matter is Light! 

Thus everything is an infinite feedback loop, Light measuring Light measuring Light measuring Light measuring Light measuring Light etc etc ✨️ 

Edited July 23 by tuku747

[tuku747]

Look at this:

The heart is a powerful MAGNET. The magnetic field of your body is touching everything around you. This field is your consciousness; Your mind! 

You can feel yourself inside things "outside" of you!

How does that work?

You are in Everything You see because You Are Everything You See!!

Now, the brain operates within the powerful magnetic field of the heart. The brain and spine are nested in the vortex of the toroidal field; in the center, spinning, like a tornado!

The "net of fireflies" of electrical activity in the neurons of the brain is generated by the magnetic field of heart! 

The heat generated by the firing of synapes and the motion of the heart is LIGHT; All electric activity is glowing in the electromagnetic spectrum, which, again, radiates, and touches everything you observe!

You observe yourself! You observe Light! You observe your mind! 

You measure yourself! You measure Light! You measure your mind!

Edited July 22 by tuku747

[Leo Gura]

I quote Leonard Suskind in my quantum mechanics videos where Suskind admit to quantum entanglement at higher scales.

So Dave doesn't even understand his own scientists.

I give all the quotes in my 2 QM videos which show that Dave is ignorant of the history of scientists working in this field.

Edited July 23 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, tuku747 said:

A particle literally doesn't exist as a local particle until it is measured with another photon.  Until then, the particle is a waveform probability cloud; potentially anywhere at a given time.

The assertion that consciousness doesn't affect reality doesn't understand what consciousness is, or what reality is.

Consciousness is Light. You are Consciousness. You Are The Light of The World. You're the Light of The Sun looking at itself.

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, because you are looking at your method of looking; You're looking at your own Light. When you observe, you are not measuring something "out there"; you are measuring your mind! The same is true for the scientist. You view the scientist and his study in your mind too!

See the issue for so called "objective science" here? You are trying to measure an object in your mind with your mind; You are trying to measure the very object you are using to measure. It's like trying to measure a ruler with the same ruler. It is it's own length by definition. How can science ever hope to be "objective" if the scientist is necessarily a subjective entity?

Speak Sister speak. Or is it brother. Either way, tell 'em.

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, tuku747 said:

Look at this:

The heart is a powerful MAGNET. The magnetic field of your body is touching everything around you. This field is your consciousness; Your mind! 

You can feel yourself inside things "outside" of you!

How does that work?

You are in Everything You see because You Are Everything You See!!

Now, the brain operates within the powerful magnetic field of the heart. The brain and spine are nested in the vortex of the toroidal field; in the center, spinning, like a tornado!

The "net of fireflies" of electrical activity in the neurons of the brain is generated by the magnetic field of heart! 

The heat generated by the firing of synapes and the motion of the heart is LIGHT; All electric activity is glowing in the electromagnetic spectrum, which, again, radiates, and touches everything you observe!

You observe yourself! You observe Light! You observe your mind! 

You measure yourself! You measure Light! You measure your mind!

And this my dear is what's called energy. Love it. Powerful stuff.

Edited July 23 by Princess Arabia

[Emotionalmosquito]

Looks like I might’ve bit off more than I can chew here. Deep stuff 

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your mind is hallucinating science.

And Quantum Dave is a fool.

I mean nobody is perfect but he seems pretty legit on a lot of scientific stuff.

I will say though he’s completely misguided about the nature of actualized.org, unsurprisingly. He thinks this is a cult  To anyone here it’s dead obvious this is anything but cult like. But even to be fair on that note, he pointed out how you used to say we need to physically die to learn the truth. As an outsider looking in, you can’t really blame him for thinking that sounded pretty alarming.

[Leo Gura]

55 minutes ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

he pointed out how you used to say we need to physically die to learn the truth.

For someone as stubborn as Dave, that's likely the case.

"Science advances one funeral at a time."

-- Max Planck

But a mind like Dave's might accuse Max Planck of calling for the murder of scientists.

Edited July 23 by Leo Gura

[tuku747]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

For someone as stubborn as Dave, that's likely the case.

"Science advances one funeral at a time."

-- Max Planck

"A new scientific truth does not generally triumph by persuading its opponents and getting them to admit their errors, but rather by its opponents gradually dying out and giving way to a new generation that is raised on it. … An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth."
Max Planck

"Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve."
Max Planck

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
Max Planck

"As a physicist who has devoted his whole life to rational science, to the study of matter, I think I can safely claim to be above any suspicion of irrational exuberance. Having said that, I would like to observe that my research on the atom has shown me that there is no such thing as matter in itself. What we perceive as matter is merely the manifestation of a force that causes the subatomic particles to oscillate and holds them together in the tiniest solar system of the universe. Since there is in the whole universe neither an intelligent force nor an eternal force (mankind, for all its yearnings, has yet to succeed in inventing a perpetual motion machine), we must assume that this force that is active within the atom comes from a conscious and intelligent mind. That mind is the ultimate source of matter."
Max Planck

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck

[tuku747]

[DocWatts]

For what it's worth, I would caution against 'quantum mysticism' - where quantum mechanics is appended to spiritual beliefs in a sloppy, non-rigorous way.

There are better, more epistemologically grounded ways to demonstrate that perception shapes Reality than delving into physics to try to prove the point.

The problem with using quantum mechanics for this purpose is that you are trying to use an 'outside-in' vantage point to try demonstrate a phenomenological truth. When you would be better off using an 'inside-out' vantage point that begins by closely scrutinizing our direct experience, and the a-priori assumptions that we normally attach to that experience (for example, that Reality can be neatly divided into an 'internal' realm of thoughts and experiences, and an 'external' physical Reality - or that there's a single, correct god's eye view of Reality).

Edited July 23 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

Reality is mystical.

If QM has any truth to it, quantum mysticism is the nature of reality. If not, non-quantum mysticism is the nature of reality.

Checkmate. Case closed.

It is not science which is accomodating mysticism. It is mysticism which is accomidating science. If you want any of your science to be true, it must fit inside mysticism. If it doesn't fit, it is false. Whether it fits or not is a human problem, not a problem of any existential import. Because science is ultimately a human fiction. Nothing science does or says will ever touch Infinity. Infinity does not care. However, if you are very intelligent you might recognize Infinity within all your science monkey games.

The founders of QM were intelligent enough to realize that reality is a gaint Mind. And Dave is not intelligent enough to do so.

The end.

Edited July 23 by Leo Gura

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Science will never properly measure the metaphysical domain because that's not its job. Its' job is to take subjective measurements of the material and physical domain.