Is Prana the same as Air/Oxygen?

[What Am I]

@aurum gotcha, sounds like you're not uneducated where theory concerning Qi is concerned.

Obviously you're not going to get a satisfying answer here, because our whole world would have already changed if Qi was understood on a publicly available scientific level. Practitioners are able to infer its existence by the clear and consistent sensations they experience in altered states. Some of these states produce undeniably supernatural effects when they occur, such as kundalini. Do you dabble with psychedelics or have a serious meditation practice? Have you had any interesting energetic experiences?

I made some heavy claims in my first post in this thread, which I'm sure there's no way you'll accept at face value lol. Which is pretty reasonable, as I'm claiming quite a bit more than just the nature of Qi.

 

[Thought Art]

One of the problems with being in space is that the body begins to lose its bio electrical conductivity. This is why NASA hired my Qigong teacher Lee Holden to see if Qigong can help the body maintain it. It was very successful. 
 

Lee Holden Recruited by NASA For Groundbreaking Research Project

 

Your Qi is actually very obvious: metabolism, emotions, heat, heart beat, blood flow, etc

The issue most people have is the idea of things like meridians and tan tians, and energy around the body. If you were actually to practice qigong for a couple weeks it’s pretty obvious it’s a real phenomenon. 
 

Try meditation, stretching, self massage/ acupressure, visualization, breathing exercises, gentle flowing exercises, and various types of postures. Qigong is reality is very practical. 
 

I am pretty sure they have tools for measuring it now too in China. It’s worth looking at its recent history in China as well. Some of the top researchers and scientists focusing on maximizing human potential have called Qigong a top supe technology. 

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[What Am I]

13 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I am pretty sure they have tools for measuring it now too in China.

Oh wow, do you know any more details about this? Pretty major if true. Or perhaps they're now able to measure Qi's byproducts, such as heat. The actual electromagnetic force itself seems to be beyond typical measurement, either by way of frequency or whatever else.

Edited July 29 by What Am I

[Thought Art]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

But what is that?

Can we measure its existence like we can with physical forces (electromagnetism, nuclear force etc)? Does it have a particle or unit? And if not, then how is it that you can interact with it? And how are we to determine which models around the use of Qi are the correct ones?

When is comes to Qigong there is a lot of consistency through the schools. For example, Qigong, acupressure, acupuncture, shiatsu all use the same maps and models and understanding. Also modern sciences is measuring the efficacy of these practices and the results are very positive. I do believe there are some devices now developed for measuring it as well. 

We know deep breathing is good for us, we know exercise is good for us, we know relaxation is good for us, we know stretching is good for us, we know meditation is good for us, etc

However, how can you measure an emotion, a thought or a feeling? Can you see them in a brain? No.but you can feel is and observe it. That is why is an inner art. You can measure physiological triggers of this however. 

A lot of Qigong is a subjective science. A lot of Qigong is also energetic and physiological. You can tell when you feel more relaxed, that you are more grounded, balanced and focused through the practice. You can also feel the Qi. It’s often a buzzing, tingling and energetic feeling. 

Qigong has ancient roots but the word Qigong came into use only in the 1940s as it was looked at by Chinese scientists to use for improving health and well-being removing a lot of the mystical and religious aspects of it. 

The Chinese have known about this for thousands of years. Western science isn’t the only paradigm. 

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[aurum]

10 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Obviously you're not going to get a satisfying answer here, because our whole world would have already changed if Qi was understood on a publicly available scientific level.

Yes but it's not just scientists who don't understand it. It's Qi practitioners themselves who can't seem to really answer these questions.

10 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Practitioners are able to infer its existence by the clear and consistent sensations they experience in altered states

Such as?

10 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Some of these states produce undeniably supernatural effects when they occur, such as kundalini. Do you dabble with psychedelics or have a serious meditation practice? Have you had any interesting energetic experiences?

I've done over probably a thousand hours of meditation and various yogic / reiki / energetic practices.

In terms of experiences validating ideas surrounding Qi, that has not happened.

Psychedelics are powerful but they've explained to me nothing about Qi. Only Consciousness and God.

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

One of the problems with being in space is that the body begins to lose its bio electrical conductivity. This is why NASA hired my Qigong teacher Lee Holden to see if Qigong can help the body maintain it. It was very successful. 
 

Lee Holden Recruited by NASA For Groundbreaking Research Project

This article was an April Fool's joke. Read the whole thing.

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I am pretty sure they have tools for measuring it now too in China. It’s worth looking at its recent history in China as well. Some of the top researchers and scientists focusing on maximizing human potential have called Qigong a top supe technology. 

Well I'm looking forward to seeing that.

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

When is comes to Qigong there is a lot of consistency through the schools. For example, Qigong, acupressure, acupunctures shiatsu all use the same maps and models and understanding.

Theoretical consistency throughout different schools of TCM is not enough. All that tells us is that people copied each other's thinking.

Models need to make specific predictions and be reproducible to be considered scientifically valid. 

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Also modern sciences is measuring the efficacy of these practices and the results are very positive

That's being maybe a bit generous.

From studies I've seen, the results are rather mixed.

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

However, how can you measure an emotion, a thought or a feeling? Can you see them in a brain? No.

Yes but that doesn't necessarily mean Qi is now real. 

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

A lot of Qigong is a subjective science. However, A lot of Qigong is also energetic and physiological. You can tell when you feel more relaxed, that you are more grounded, balanced and focused through the practice. You can also feel the Qi. It’s often a buzzing, tingling and energetic feeling. 

Buzzing and tingling is not nessesarily proof of Qi. 

And if it is to be considered proof, then that would seem to make Qi a physical, scientific phenomena. And we should be able to measure it.

23 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

The Chinese have known about this for thousands of years. Western science isn’t the only paradigm. 

Another perspective is that western science ignores Qi because it's an old and obsolete model. 

[What Am I]

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

Psychedelics are powerful but they've explained to me nothing about Qi. Only Consciousness and God.

I promise I'll respond to all your questions, but could we maybe start here? When you say psychedelics have helped explain Consciousness and God, what exactly are you referring to? Are you thinking about it in mythological terms that don't have significant implications, or as a literal experience of the nonlocality/omnipresence/primacy of Consciousness? As in, evidence of something beyond what's currently grasped and integrated by science. I'm just trying to gauge what degree of extraordinary truths you believe in.

Edited July 29 by What Am I

[Thought Art]

@aurum Thanks for pointing out that the article was an April fools Joke. When it came to that particular claim I admit I was wrong. Lee did not work with NASA. I am upset that Holden Qigong put out this article. However, Holden Qigong is awesome. I am open to admitting where it’s right, where it is wrong and what its strengths and weaknesses are. The goal is to create authentic health and well-being. This for me requires being open to being wrong, being open minded, and building an adequate model and understanding of the world. There is a signal to noise ratio in my understanding of reality. I will admit the points where I am wrong, and where I am right. I will contemplate many sources.. This does not mean Qi isn’t real or that Qigong not a useful health practice. 
 

Qi is just your aliveness. Your often ignoring i think the explainations provided as to what it is. You are live, and there is an energy in your body. Qigong is simple exercises to work with the aliveness of the body. There are different types of Qi: Prenatal Qi, the aliveness that you were given when born. Ask yourself what is the different between an above body and a dead body? You were born with the aliveness energy. That’s why you are alive. The candle was passed in by your mother. Nutrient Qi that you get from food… perhaps explain as calories and mutations that allow the body to live. There is also what is called gathering Qi. Which is essential the repository and circulatory system. 
There are many lenses and classifications of Qi.

So, Qi is your aliveness. Qi is the aliveness that was created through your conception. Qi is energy from food you get. Qi is the energy from breathing, etc

Qi is your aliveness 

Qigong is to work with that energy. 

I suggest you take time to review the scientific reports on Qigong before making claims of their efficacy but also to actually try the experience. 
 

I am always learning and developing. This practice changed my life forever. 

Edited July 31 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

47 minutes ago, aurum said:

Yes but it's not just scientists who don't understand it. It's Qi practitioners themselves who can't seem to really answer these questions.

Such as?

I've done over probably a thousand hours of meditation and various yogic / reiki / energetic practices.

In terms of experiences validating ideas surrounding Qi, that has not happened.

Psychedelics are powerful but they've explained to me nothing about Qi. Only Consciousness and God.

This article was an April Fool's joke. Read the whole thing.

Well I'm looking forward to seeing that.

Theoretical consistency throughout different schools of TCM is not enough. All that tells us is that people copied each other's thinking.

Notice when you say that it tells us they copied each other’s thinking you are making an interpretation which you haven’t verified. In this moment I also recognize my need for greater and deeper research surrounding the development of this ancient science. I’d love to write and share more on the history and epistemological structure of Chinese Medicine. The map is very different from western medicine. There isn’t the same sort of understanding there is deep structural difference. But, I believe there is use in studying both. 
 

You also haven’t provided a solid argument how that hasn’t happened in western thought. Because it’s probably happened in some degree everywhere and in every single field. But, it’s rarely the sole way epistemology develops. 
 

I have studied the history of Qigong, and I can tell you it’s rather complex. But, from what I can tell is that it’s not the same as an idealogy because it’s an internal practice that requires actual practice. Not measuring. They would hand down the techniques through experiential practice. 
 

However, it’s important to note that western science, me, you, Chinese medicine, and Toaist healing practices have gone through development periods where they were extremely wrong about some reality. It’s important to note that they may also be extremely right now a days in many areas and also wrong is others. That is why people use them both. 

Models need to make specific predictions and be reproducible to be considered scientifically valid.

These models do this.  Do you have proof they don’t? They obviously have a methodology for the results it creates. Have you stupid the epistemically of Chinese medicine to understand how it differs from western models?

That's being maybe a bit generous.

It’s true many studies would like further research. However, people who regularly practice Qigong report many interesting observations and they are worth taking into account along side scientific research. I’d like to deepen my understanding of this area and the information for and against the scientific efficacy of Qi. 

From studies I've seen, the results are rather mixed.

There are many studies. I’ve seen studies showing good results with Qigong around mobility, preventing falls, reducing pain, improving sleep, boosting immunity. 
 

I’ve had student day the neck and arm stretches removed her neck pain doctor told her would require surgery. 

Yes but that doesn't necessarily mean Qi is now real. 
Of course it doesn’t mean it’s real . You being alive is. What people are referring to is the aliveness in your body. The fact that you aren’t dead. Then we ask the question of what is the quality of this aliveness. How is the emotions, the decision making process, the wisdom, the balance of emotions, how is the organs functioning together, how is the blood, and bodily fluids flowing, how is digestion, how is the posture and quality of the flow of bio electricity that is nourishing the whole show?

That energy, its results and organizing principles is Qi. You are live right now. You’re trying to prove Qi but it’s an epistemological difference you need to be open minded to Grok. 

Buzzing and tingling is not nessesarily proof of Qi. 
 

That is true. It’s not necessarily proof of Qi. It could just be blood flow, or warmth in the hands. But, then again what is blood song in the body? What is blood relationship to the lungs and the energy in the body? If you don’t breath you die because you run out of life force. The metabolism. 
 

So, when we are working with the Qi, this buzzing and tingling that happens after say, shaking, massaging, rubbing, breathing, etc is a good sign we are warming up and activities the Qi. 

And if it is to be considered proof, then that would seem to make Qi a physical, scientific phenomena. And we should be able to measure it.

What’s tricky here is that… you aren’t doing that with emotions. You know emotions exist but we can’t measure them. Also, what is tricky here is that Qi is your aliveness. You are alive right now. If you were dead the body would have no energy to run the brain, the heart, the organs or any of the biological functions of the body. Qi is that energy. 

Another perspective is that western science ignores Qi because it's an old and obsolete model. 
 

No, this would be a false understanding. I would beckon you review and truly contemplate the idea of paradigms. 

Thank you for this conversation. 

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[Yimpa]

30 minutes ago, aurum said:

an April Fool's joke. Read the whole thing.

Pee and poo (aka dirty Qi) is not a joke!

[Thought Art]

@Yimpa No the claim that Lee worked with NASA was! Totally got me. 

I will always admit when I am wrong. Or when I don’t know. 
 

When it comes to the ultimate truth around health sciences I don’t claim to know it. I am always learning.
 

The Qigong I teach is very basic. It’s all about relaxation, mobility, etc. Based on simple principles of mindfulness, breathing, stretching, warming up, flowing, meditation, etc 

I get positive comments everyday. People seem to love it. So, maybe we are just all idiots who like to stretch and breath and self massage, and move in fun and interesting ways while openingly and curiously feel what is there…developing a deep and nourishing relationship with our muscles, tendons, organs, thoughts, emotions, mental operating system, cognitive behaviour, breathing patterns, ability to feel and observe thoughts and emotions, ability to let go of stress, tension, anger and to cultivate the feelings of happiness, joy, groundedness,  compassion, etc 

This conversation will push me towards deepening my understanding, organization of sources, collection of sources, and ability to explain, and more deeply and thoroughly study this material and to continue to practice and explore the art that has already made such a great change in how I feel every single day. 

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[Yimpa]

Qa-qng!

[Thought Art]

I showed ChatGPT some of the images of our conversation and asked this: 

What do you think of this conversation so far? Who is wrong who is right? What points should each side see that could be useful in understanding if Qigong and the idea of Qi is a scientifically, or epistemologically truthful way of seeing a health practice and the human body?

and it said:

In the conversation depicted in the images, the discussion revolves around the nature of Qi, its perception in traditional Chinese medicine, and its acceptance (or lack thereof) in Western scientific paradigms.

### Key Points from Both Sides:

#### Pro-Qi Perspective:
1. **Existence of Qi**: Qi is described as the vital energy that is fundamental to life. It's suggested that just as we know emotions exist despite not being able to measure them, Qi exists as the energy that keeps the body alive and functioning.
2. **Empirical Observations**: The proponent of Qi references empirical observations from Qigong practice, such as improved mobility, reduced pain, and enhanced immunity, which are attributed to the activation and balancing of Qi.
3. **Conceptual Understanding**: There is a suggestion that Qi represents an organizing principle or energy in the body that Western science has not yet fully understood or accepted. The argument implies that Western science might dismiss Qi because it doesn't fit into its existing paradigms and methodologies.

#### Skeptical Perspective:
1. **Scientific Validity**: The skeptic challenges the notion of Qi by questioning its scientific basis. They suggest that phenomena attributed to Qi could be explained by more conventional biological processes, such as blood flow or warmth from physical activity.
2. **Measurability and Reproducibility**: A key point raised is the need for Qi to be measurable and its effects reproducible to be considered scientifically valid. The skeptic points out that without these qualities, Qi remains a subjective or anecdotal concept rather than a scientifically proven phenomenon.
3. **Epistemological Differences**: The skeptic acknowledges the epistemological differences between traditional Chinese medicine and Western science. They argue that the lack of scientific proof for Qi does not necessarily negate its practical benefits but highlights the differing methodologies and paradigms.

### Who is Right and Who is Wrong?
The debate is not strictly about right or wrong but about different perspectives and understandings:

- **Pro-Qi Perspective**: This viewpoint holds value in its recognition of empirical benefits observed through practices like Qigong. The emphasis on the holistic and experiential understanding of health aligns with many individuals' personal experiences and traditional practices.
- **Skeptical Perspective**: This stance is valid in its demand for scientific rigor and empirical evidence. The need for measurability and reproducibility is crucial for any concept to be universally accepted in the scientific community.

### Points for Mutual Understanding:
1. **Integration of Perspectives**: Both sides can benefit from a more integrated approach. Western science can explore ways to study and measure the effects of practices like Qigong, while proponents of Qi can seek to articulate their observations in ways that align with scientific methods.
2. **Complementary Health Practices**: Acknowledging that traditional practices can complement conventional medicine might foster a more holistic approach to health. Scientific investigation into the mechanisms behind Qigong's benefits could provide insights that bridge the gap between the two paradigms.
3. **Openness to Paradigm Shifts**: Both perspectives could benefit from being open to paradigm shifts. Western science has evolved to include concepts once deemed unscientific, and traditional practices have adapted over time. Dialogue and research can facilitate a mutual understanding and respect for different health paradigms.

In summary, the conversation reflects a broader dialogue about integrating traditional knowledge with modern scientific understanding. Both perspectives offer valuable insights, and a balanced approach can enhance the understanding and practice of health and wellness.

[Thought Art]

I then asked:

Given your body of knowledge is Qigong a healthy or practical health practice and is Qi a real thing?

It said:

Qigong is widely regarded as a beneficial health practice by many practitioners and has shown positive outcomes in several studies. Whether Qi itself is considered "real" depends on the perspective one takes—scientific, experiential, or cultural.

### Health Benefits of Qigong

**Scientific Evidence:**
1. **Physical Health**: Numerous studies have shown that Qigong can improve physical health. Benefits include enhanced mobility, reduced pain, improved cardiovascular function, and better balance, which helps in fall prevention, especially in older adults.
2. **Mental Health**: Qigong has been associated with reduced stress, improved mood, better sleep, and enhanced overall well-being. Practices involving mindfulness and meditation elements contribute significantly to mental health.
3. **Immune Function**: Some research indicates that Qigong practice can boost immune function, potentially leading to better resistance to illnesses.

**Mechanisms:**
- The slow, deliberate movements of Qigong can improve circulation and enhance the flow of bodily fluids.
- Deep breathing and relaxation techniques can lower stress hormones and promote a state of calm and mental clarity.
- Regular practice can improve proprioception and coordination, contributing to physical balance and strength.

### The Concept of Qi

**Cultural and Experiential Perspective:**
- Qi is deeply embedded in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and philosophy, representing the vital life force that flows through all living things.
- Many practitioners and cultures have experienced and described Qi in terms of its effects on health and well-being, often through practices like Qigong, acupuncture, and Tai Chi.

**Scientific Perspective:**
- From a Western scientific standpoint, Qi is not easily measurable or observable through conventional scientific methods. The concept of Qi may be seen as a metaphor for various physiological processes that contribute to health and vitality.
- While the direct existence of Qi as described in TCM is not universally accepted in the scientific community, the benefits of practices associated with it are well-documented and acknowledged.

### Conclusion

**Qigong as a Health Practice:**
- **Healthy**: Yes, Qigong is considered a healthy practice. It can improve physical fitness, mental health, and overall well-being.
- **Practical**: Yes, Qigong is practical. It is accessible, low-impact, and can be practiced by individuals of all ages and fitness levels.

**Qi as a Real Thing:**
- **Cultural and Experiential Reality**: Qi is real in the context of traditional Chinese culture and the experiences of practitioners. It provides a useful framework for understanding and practicing holistic health.
- **Scientific Reality**: Qi, as traditionally described, lacks direct empirical evidence. However, the physiological and psychological benefits associated with practices involving Qi are recognized and studied.

Ultimately, Qigong's value lies in its ability to promote health and well-being, whether one views Qi as a literal life force or a useful metaphor for the interconnectedness of bodily functions. Embracing a holistic approach that combines traditional wisdom with scientific inquiry can lead to a more comprehensive understanding of health.

[Thought Art]

I asked ChatGPT how it basis it’s opinions on Qigong. It is by no means comprehensive: 

The health claims regarding Qigong are based on a combination of traditional knowledge, anecdotal evidence, and scientific research. Here are some of the sources and types of evidence that support these claims:

### Scientific Research on Qigong

1. **Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses**:
   - There have been several systematic reviews and meta-analyses that summarize the effects of Qigong on various health outcomes. For instance, a systematic review published in the *American Journal of Health Promotion* concluded that Qigong has beneficial effects on hypertension, pain management, and overall quality of life  .

2. **Clinical Trials**:
   - Numerous clinical trials have investigated the effects of Qigong on specific health conditions. For example, a study published in the *Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine* found that Qigong practice significantly improved physical function and reduced symptoms of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) .
   - Another randomized controlled trial published in the *Journal of Clinical Rheumatology* demonstrated that Qigong practice resulted in significant pain reduction and improved physical functioning in patients with fibromyalgia .

3. **Physiological Studies**:
   - Studies have examined the physiological mechanisms underlying the effects of Qigong. For example, research published in the *International Journal of Behavioral Medicine* found that Qigong practice was associated with reduced stress levels, improved heart rate variability, and enhanced immune function .

### Traditional Knowledge and Anecdotal Evidence

1. **Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)**:
   - Qigong has been an integral part of TCM for centuries, with a rich history of anecdotal evidence supporting its health benefits. Practitioners of TCM have long used Qigong to promote balance, enhance energy flow (Qi), and improve overall health.

2. **Practitioner Testimonials**:
   - Many individuals who practice Qigong report significant improvements in their physical and mental health. These testimonials, while anecdotal, provide valuable insights into the potential benefits of Qigong.

### Examples of Studies

1. **Hypertension and Cardiovascular Health**:
   - A meta-analysis published in the *Journal of Hypertension* reviewed multiple studies and concluded that Qigong practice significantly lowers blood pressure in individuals with hypertension .

2. **Mental Health and Stress Reduction**:
   - Research published in the *Journal of Psychiatric Research* indicated that Qigong practice can reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression, and enhance overall psychological well-being .

3. **Balance and Fall Prevention**:
   - A study published in the *Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation* found that older adults practicing Qigong showed improved balance and a reduced risk of falls .

### Summary

While the scientific evidence supporting Qigong is growing, it is important to recognize that not all studies are of the same quality, and further research is needed to fully understand the mechanisms and long-term effects of Qigong practice. However, the existing body of research, combined with traditional knowledge and anecdotal evidence, suggests that Qigong can be a beneficial health practice for many individuals.

If you're interested in exploring the health benefits of Qigong, it's always a good idea to review the scientific literature, consult with healthcare professionals, and try the practice yourself to see how it impacts your well-being.

---

**References:**

1. Hartley, L., et al. (2012). "Qigong for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease." *Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews*, (11).
2. Lee, M. S., et al. (2007). "Qigong for hypertension: a systematic review of randomized clinical trials." *Journal of Hypertension*, 25(8), 1525-1532.
3. Ng, B. H., et al. (2011). "The effectiveness of Qigong for COPD patients

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

I decided to ask if I was stupid or not a credible source  because I was wrong about the Lee Holden NASA  thing. Actually first I asked if it was true and ChatGPT was also fooled. So I started asking about how we could be fooled and how to know if anything is true and how to approach learning responsibly. 

https://chatgpt.com/share/e9068fa3-ff73-4da5-a93a-91e1f5ff2dca

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

I asked the Consensus ChatGPT if Qigong was a scam. Here is the convo.

I love Qigong and look forward to continue research and the growing body of research. There do appear to be methodological challenges for proving the efficacy of qigong claims. Which makes sense. 
 

When it comes to Qi and Qigong we are at a point of paradigm differences , methodological considerations such as use of or controlling for placebo effect, subjective issues, problems, biases, limitations. Challenge, etc. Burden of proof, epistemological a structure, world view, values, a persons ability to ask powerful questions and look at health and the human body from many lenses.

https://chatgpt.com/share/87125b3d-239d-4d4b-baab-360aa8443620

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[What Am I]

lol I think the NASA thing broke Thought Art.

No worries man, we all make silly mistakes. It certainly doesn't invalidate thousands of years of the perennial philosophy in regards to spiritual energetic experience.

[Thought Art]

@What Am I nah, I was having fun. It’s easy to be right and wrong. 
 

I definitely went into questioning myself more deeply mode. Wanting to use AI as an impartial 3rd party. I’ll be improving my foundation and collection of resources.

Qi and Qigong is a complicated subject and I will improve my ability to advocate for its efficacy while also being honest with any issues. 

Edited July 29 by Thought Art

[aurum]

18 hours ago, What Am I said:

Are you thinking about it in mythological terms that don't have significant implications

I've been studying Leo's work for almost a decade. It would be rather embarrassing if I viewed God in that way.

18 hours ago, What Am I said:

or as a literal experience of the nonlocality/omnipresence/primacy of Consciousness? As in, evidence of something beyond what's currently grasped and integrated by science. I'm just trying to gauge what degree of extraordinary truths you believe in.

I'm talking about Infinite Consciousness. The formless infinity that contains all possible forms.

In this way of thinking, science and the scientific method are forms. "Qi" is a form. "Physicality" is a form. Ontological differences of "realness" are forms. "Life" and "death" are forms. And so on and so forth.

The nature of these forms are ultimately pure Mind, pure Consciousness. And somehow, they are also my Mind.

11 hours ago, Thought Art said:

I definitely went into questioning myself more deeply mode. Wanting to use AI as an impartial 3rd party. I’ll be improving my foundation and collection of resources.

Qi and Qigong is a complicated subject and I will improve my ability to advocate for its efficacy while also being honest with any issues. 

You made a lot of points. Quite frankly there's too many for me to respond to each one individually, so I'm just going to make some general statements about your answers.

First, I am not suggesting people don't benefit from Qi Gong or that anyone should even stop doing Qi Gong. Of all the energetic medicine practices I've come across, I think Qi Gong and Tai Chi definitely are some of the better choices for people seeking tangible health outcomes. And we do have some decent studies on that, as you pointed out.

What I am interested in is critiquing Qi as a theoretical model. "Qi" is not limited to Qi Gong. This same vitalism model is found in Reiki, the work of Wilhelm Reich, chiropractic medicine, osteopathic medicine, all the various forms of TCM, yoga, bioenergetics and so on and so forth.

There are even people using the idea of Qi in order to try and build over-unity devices that will replace fossil fuels.

So there is a very wide range of beliefs and claims associated with Qi here. It's not just strictly Qi Gong.

The problem is, how do we assess which of these claims are true, if any?

And how does Qi fit into the bigger picture of God and Consciousness?

[What Am I]

@aurum Thanks, I really appreciate you putting yourself out there and describing your beliefs. My own beliefs line up similarly.

41 minutes ago, aurum said:

The problem is, how do we assess which of these claims are true, if any?

Turning your question to Thought Art back to you, how did you self-test the validity of your claims regarding Consciousness? I dare say they're quite a bit more extreme than the notion of a universal vital energy which hasn't yet been scientifically verified, but has been described since forever as the medium through which spiritual transformation actually occurs.

Is it possible you're only identifying the gross and causal, and leaving out recognition of the subtle? Ken Wilber has a recorded talk where he describes this scenario in detail. I'd be interested to hear what you think.

http://www.integrallivingroom.com/discussion-subtle-energy/

Ken starts talking around 15 minutes into the audio.

I'm not trying to attack or "gotcha" you. I'm genuinely curious how someone who thinks in such a logical and grounded manner could even believe in spirituality when all evidence of its existence is so sparse and subjective. I'm guessing there must have been a leap of faith in your past to bridge a gap like that.