Veganism and spiral dynamics

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Maybe that was the most important point to you but I didnt experience it as a highlighted point in your argumentation. Furthermore 1) taste is more of a subjective thing as you cant really debate taste so obviously that cant be the focus in a debate

Yes, but when I talk about taste, i'm talking less about the palate's reaction and more about the overall sensation. Legumes are boring to eat and that is why they are always eaten well cooked with lots of condiments and possibly ingredients.  Who here is capable of eating 1000 kcals of legumes for example? 🤔

6 minutes ago, Jannes said:

your critique was pretty immature, making a show out of how disgusting vegan products are when its clearly subjective. I got tired of that from previous debates where you deliberately found the most disgusting vegan meals possible and used that as a counter argument so I didn't even want to comment on it this time.

I'm just talking about eating legumes.

7 minutes ago, Jannes said:

 

3% protein and low protein quality are scientific comments. Or how are they not!?

For the second time it was just a joke.

[Jannes]

2 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, but when I talk about taste, i'm talking less about the palate's reaction and more about the overall sensation. Legumes are boring // that's not objective to eat and that is why they are always eaten well cooked with lots of condiments and possibly ingredients.  Who here is capable of eating 1000 kcals of legumes for example? 🤔

I probably couldnt eat a 1000 kcal meat that easily as I am not a big eater but I ate plenty of meals where lentils played a big part. Lentils can taste good just by themselves, probably better than unseasoned meat. You have to season meat as well so that it tastes good. 

But what is even your argument here. You season food so it tastes better. Taste is a multi faceted thing and good taste doesnt imply health. If you want to argue that way.

 

[Schizophonia]

4 hours ago, Jannes said:

I probably couldnt eat a 1000 kcal meat that easily as I am not a big eater but I ate plenty of meals where lentils played a big part.

I would say It all depends on the amount of fat.

4 hours ago, Jannes said:

 

Lentils can taste good just by themselves, probably better than unseasoned meat. You have to season meat as well so that it tastes good. 

But what is even your argument here. You season food so it tastes better.

If you are used to salt the meat is good with just a little salt. Then by taste I also and above all wanted to say texture. It's just painful to eat a lot of starch without "cheating" with ingredients and condiments. I'm not at all against balanced meals :), I'm just tacitly trying to aim for and promote a diet that would be historically and anthropologically consistent. If a diet is painful and heavily encourages unnatural mixtures (oils and starches) to be pleasant enough, then I feel there is something wrong somewhere. Meat, raw milk, nuts, fruits and some vegetables and tubers are good in themselves.

4 hours ago, Jannes said:

Taste is a multi faceted thing and good taste doesnt imply health. If you want to argue that way.

 

Yes.

 

[Myagooshki]

On 7/13/2024 at 1:57 AM, kyle barnett said:

Hey guys. I've been vegan (with exceptions) for about 7 years now. For ethical reasons predominantly. But, veganism gets a bad wrap, and for a lot of good reasons. I used to be with a partner who was vegan and their family was vegan, I did a bit of vegan activism and while I was on board with supporting activism. I also do not like ideology and fundamentalism. I am no longer with that partner and have a new partner in which we are married. But now I'm practically the only vegan.

 

I still support the idea of moving towards veganism or reducing animal suffering as much as possible. I believe that we do have the potential to move towards a vegan world in the sense of moving away from factory farming and animal exploitation. Of course nothing set in stone. There's always going to be exploitation.

I see veganism similar to other areas of life such as politics where one end, people are defending of older values and sceptical of moving on and the other end of the spectrum people are ignorant and dismissive of older values that worked for generations.

Vegans using terms such as "animal holocaust, slavery" etc. But this is seen as extreme. I assume... That slavery or black rights, immigration etc. in the times had similar issues. Because those systems were dependant on conserving one group over another hence survival. Both in terms of self and community. You had this polarising effect of left and right. But as time goes on society evolves and it becomes easier to be more independent and in turn provide more for the outside world. Eg. Countries working in conjunction, cultures coming together, traditional standards lowered.

 

I think veganism is a great example of spiral dynamics green and how on one hand it's moving past human race as important and animals as inferior to animals being just as important as humans... It's also a matter of dismissing older traditions that have kept the human race functioning . Those older traditions in the sense of lower stage colours red, blue and orange etc. are what the vegan extremists so to speak would dismiss or not consider as much. Of course evolving through green can appear in many ways, not just humans vs animals. 

Now for me. I agree with alot of the science to veganism environmentally, nutritionally, ethically etc. Hence I am vegan and also feel if someone can't fully be vegan that doing their best to work towards it is an important value. 

I know there is the argument that "everyone's body is different" but as far as I am personally aware (feel free to point out some objections, I'm open minded) ... If you're getting a blood test, aside from B12, it should be pretty simple to find a plant alternative for any nutrient or energy source.

So part of me agrees with promoting it and consider that veganism is something we should strive towards as a society, but it's always a question of "where do you draw the line?" 

 

What are your guys thoughts? 

It sounds to me like you are one of the people who can make veganism work. However many cannot. Plants do not provide things like carnosine. Also, you might still be a few years away from veganism related health issues. My friend's dad was a vegan for over 10 years and then he suddenly started collapsing all of the time. Now he has to consume some dairy and egg in order to not collapse. Animal products have much better protein to calorie ratios than plant products. 

I love eating meat and dairy. However I will agree that predation is sad. I do not know why mother nature took life down this route of predation. I suppose it's some dark emotional alchemy. I do believe that in the future we will find ways to consume animal products with very little if any suffering done to the animals. As it is, captive animals tend to live very happy lives if living under the right conditions. They're safe from predators, they just get to run around and play with other animals and their human caretakers all day. I think with the right psychology techniques we can make it so the animals never realize that getting slaughtered is a thing, or something like that. But we're always going to be eating animals. And of course, you can never assume that the system that allows this type of very ethical animal slaughtering will be subject to sustainability from outside factors. At first only wealthy hippie farmers will be doing it, etc.

I don't really accept the argument that you're making it like stage green is saying who are we to think we are better than other animals to eat them. Who are we to think that we are better than other animals to not eat them? Truth is, we are better and more evolved than animals. This is the only way you can argue for lessening animal suffering is by saying that because we have power over these animals that we should be benevolent and loving like proper leaders, not abusive. But if we're no different than other animals we might as well sink our teeth into living animals and beat them to death for fun like monkeys or somehting.

Edited July 21 by Myagooshki

[PsychedelicEagle]

 

On 7/19/2024 at 6:05 PM, Schizophonia said:

Third assumption is literally "Higher protein consumption may be protective for older adults"

Yes, because their IGF-1 is already downregulated due to advanced age. So increasing protein is generally good for 65+, but not younger.

On 7/19/2024 at 6:05 PM, Schizophonia said:

Then, these are epistemiological observations, even irresonable associations (proteins -> mTor, IGF1 etc -> aging).

That's why Valter Longo himself proposed "THE FIVE PILLARS OF LONGEVITY", including basic/juventology research, epidemiology, clinical studies, centenarian studies, and studies of complex systems.

There is no reason to believe humans should be consuming much more than 0.8g/kg of protein/bodyweight. Going way above this, such as the common 1.5-2.0g/kg currently suggested ratios, likely upregulates IGF1, which is good for bodybuilding and the protein industry but bad for preventing cancer, diabetes and obesity, ultimately decreasing longevity.

[Nivsch]

I wish the veganism wave or "revolution" I felt in 2013, when I became myself vegan for ethical reasons, will be back. Their worldview is great and has a lot of truth to it and the animal industry has to eventually diminish completely.

An alternative can be a natural farming in which the animals will live 99.9% freely but the problem of killing them at the end still exists, though at least they live respectfully. Not that I agree with that way (because the killing still exist) but it will be an improvement.

Today though I am like 90% Vegan because I needed to do many changes in my nutrition to eat what makes me feel better, including moving to raw green legumes instead of the regular ones and eating more fruits, vegetables, nuts seeds and a bit marine food.

Vegnism in the "naive" way can do problems and has to be adjusted individually.

Edited August 10 by Nivsch