Veganism and spiral dynamics

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

Then why all of the unscientific nonsense if you know better?

What “scientific nonsense”?

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

because of ethical and environmental reasons. If that doesnt concern you that's fine. 

👍

[Jannes]

13 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

What “scientific nonsense”?

what you wrote. 3% protein, low protein quality which both isnt true in this context. 

[Michael569]

I recreated that dish posted above (Chilli non-Carne with kidney beans and red lentils) based roughly on how I'd make it and the ingredients I'd assume I'd be using. This doesn't include salt and spices / herbs. 

I think this is pretty decent 

• complete essential amino acid profile 
• 31g of protein (I could easily smash twice this many legumes so could make it up to 45g of protein in a single portion) which would tip the dish to about 920 calories I assume as you'd have to adjust for using one extra onion and more tomatoes and passata to thicken the sauce. 
• 20g of fibre in a single dish is pretty f***ng epic 
• almost no saturated fats 
• this could be made without olive oil for anyone who dislikes those extra calories

Edited July 18 by Michael569

[Dopa]

On 16.7.2024 at 10:40 AM, Michael569 said:

The argument was made for the sake of someone who is vegan,  intends to remain vegan, has low level of nutritional knowledge (relatively common in vegan communities) but wants to remain reasonably healthy. The aim of the argument was not to try to convince you guys to eat processed food  

I agree with you that ideally if you're an omnivore you won't benefit from eating a plant based diet made out of mostly ultra processed food. I don't personally think veganism is unhealthy. Longitudinal studies show comparable results to Mediterranean diet which is sort of a gold standard of nutrition where longevity, chronic disease and all cause mortality is used as an end-line.

@Michael569 I disagree that a vegan diet combined with ultra processed food is reasonably healthy, I think its incredebly unhealthy.

These studies dont compare the vegan diet to a perfect diet, the thing is, a mediterranean diet can mean anything as long as the basis is mediterranean, but we dont know the rest of their diet. They can eat a mediterranean diet and still eat ultra processed foods, excessive sugar etc..
In fact, most people eat a lot of unhealthy stuff so even with this comparison we dont get a good answer.

There are a lot of examples of ex-vegans stopped being vegan because of health issues. I've seen a case where a woman was supplementing perfectly with every nutrient needed and still developed symptoms of illness, as soon as she started including eggs in her diet the symptoms vanished and they came back once she stopped eating eggs.
Now this is not just one case, youtube and social media is flooded with examples like this, which goes to show that even with perfect supplementation, there are still at least some people where it just doesnt work out.

Also, minerals and vitamins are often stored extremely long in the body, which is why it might take decades until problems due to deficiency start to show.

Now I am not saying that a vegan diet must be inherently unhealthy, but there are a lot of examples where it leads to problems. I think everyone is different in their dietary needs and needs a different diet based on their genetics, upbringing, etc..

In the end everyone should look at what works best for them in the long run.

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, Jannes said:

what you wrote. 3% protein

It was a joke, an exaggeration.

2 hours ago, Jannes said:

low protein quality which both isnt true in this context. 

https://www.prodiet-fluid.com/blog/how-to-characterize-protein-quality/

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, Michael569 said:

I recreated that dish posted above (Chilli non-Carne with kidney beans and red lentils) based roughly on how I'd make it and the ingredients I'd assume I'd be using. This doesn't include salt and spices / herbs. 

I think this is pretty decent 

• complete essential amino acid profile 
• 31g of protein (I could easily smash twice this many legumes so could make it up to 45g of protein in a single portion) which would tip the dish to about 920 calories I assume as you'd have to adjust for using one extra onion and more tomatoes and passata to thicken the sauce. 
• 20g of fibre in a single dish is pretty f***ng epic 
• almost no saturated fats 
• this could be made without olive oil for anyone who dislikes those extra calories

Stop lying, it's a boring dish. And you still have to eat that kind of food (chilli) because deep down you know your body doesn't like that sh**. 😉

You also forget to specify that unless you are anorexic you are not going to eat that. If you are an adult man you will have to eat at least double that amount every day.

Edited July 18 by Schizophonia

[Jannes]

48 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It was a joke, an exaggeration.

It's not always clear that this is a joke. It might be funny from your perspective but when people dont share that perspective they might not get it. It's even harder to understand when you say something that specific. It has pretty much the same effect as a lie. 

Quote

https://www.prodiet-fluid.com/blog/how-to-characterize-protein-quality/

Seems like an okay source but it doesn't tell the whole story about combining plant protein sources as it doesnt show which biological value can be achieved by combining different sources. I could only find this German source unfortunately but I can translate the vegan sources. 

Soy + rice = 111 Biological value of the protein

Soy + potatoes = 103 Biological value of the protein

corn + beans = 99 Biological value of the protein

Thats pretty decent protein considering an egg has 100 and many meat sources in isolation have less then that. 

 

Edited July 18 by Jannes

[Schizophonia]

33 minutes ago, Jannes said:

It's not always clear that this is a joke. It might be funny from your perspective but when people dont share that perspective they might not get it. It's even harder to understand when you say something that specific. It has pretty much the same effect as a lie. 

Seems like an okay source but it doesn't tell the whole story about combining plant protein sources as it doesnt show which biological value can be achieved by combining different sources. I could only find this German source unfortunately but I can translate the vegan sources. 

Soy + rice = 111 Biological value of the protein

Soy + potatoes = 103 Biological value of the protein

corn + beans = 99 Biological value of the protein

Thats pretty decent protein considering an egg has 100 and many meat sources in isolation have less then that. 

 

Actually, the digestive bio availability of proteins don't interests me that much. What I mainly wanted to say is that getting enough protein or even calories for that matter with legumes is too repulsive. It also easily causes digestive problems; I had my first bouts of colopathy when I tried veganism.
Btw the majority of vegan athletes cheat with rice isolate, proteins or whatever, the majority of athletes do not take whey at the expense of the idiots who fall for this propaganda.
And again, there are studies that show that whey is more effective in reducing the stress response and increasing testosterone than plant protein isolate.

[Michael569]

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Stop lying, it's a boring dish

do you see how that defeats your previous argument? You're running around like a child who is rebelling against adults screaming "Beenz mage my tummy huuut, I dont uajk beenz ". Just because you can't tolerate it, doesn't mean that this is an unsustainable way of eating. 

And obviously that calculation was for one portion, not a whole day of eating...I thought that was pretty obvious. 

You're free to eat whatever you like, just be consistent with your own arguments 

Edited July 18 by Michael569

[Sine]

This podcast episode is super interesting on this topic. I think that being vegan (which I am) fits well with stage-green values, but the conversation here feels more stage-yellow. It's not just about veganism versus eating meat - it also shows how to handle friendships with different viewpoints. I think if you go to your diet like these two are, and are able to reflect upon it like this, it raises above stage green. 

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, Michael569 said:

 

do you see how that defeats your previous argument?

Which argument ? How does saying that’s a boring meal defeats anything I’ve previously said ?

Quote

You're running around like a child who is rebelling against adults screaming "Beenz mage my tummy huuut, I dont uajk beenz ".
 

Children are right, they aren’t brainwashed still 😉

 

Quote

Just because you can't tolerate it, doesn't mean that this is an unsustainable way of 

Quote

And obviously that calculation was for one portion, not a whole day of eating...I thought that was pretty obvious. 
 

Precisely lol.

That’s mean you have to eat like half a kilo of cooked beans per day, plus ofc various vegetables, which is disgusting.

 

Edited July 18 by Schizophonia

[Jannes]

7 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Actually, the digestive bio availability of proteins don't interests me that much. What I mainly wanted to say is that getting enough protein or even calories for that matter with legumes is too repulsive. It also easily causes digestive problems; I had my first bouts of colopathy when I tried veganism.

People react differently to different foods. Just because you had a bad experience with it doesnt mean everyone will have negative experiences. I didnt have negative experiences with it. You can also more rely on soy. 

7 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Btw the majority of vegan athletes cheat with rice isolate, proteins or whatever, the majority of athletes do not take whey at the expense of the idiots who fall for this propaganda.

Not everyone is an athlete, the majority are not. So most of society doesnt need that much protein. 

But why shouldn't they take vegan protein powder if they want to?

[Michael569]

@Schizophonia im on phone so can't quote but what I meant is , you commented previously to something i wrote about processed food and you attached all those photos i including the photo of 3-bean chilli..right?

So i assumed what you meant by that was something like "look at this dish, it's better than processed food, and then you posted Cronomer logo and a can of beans, which I assumed was meant reinforce that message? Or did i misunderstand that comment?

Also to answer regarding needing to eat half a kilo of beans...this is just one food type of hundreds of possible things you can cook. Of course you wouldn't be eating the same thing all the time, i agree that's a bit boring. There are numerous ways to add more protein to your food even on a plant based diet

 

Edited July 19 by Michael569

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, Michael569 said:

@Schizophonia im on phone so can't quote but what I meant is , you commented previously to something i wrote about processed food and you attached all those photos i including the photo of 3-bean chilli..right?

 

So i assumed what you meant by that was something like "look at this dish, it's better than processed food, and then you posted Cronomer logo and a can of beans, which I assumed was meant reinforce that message? Or did i misunderstand that comment?

No it's was a joke against stereotypical plant based life style.

2 hours ago, Michael569 said:

 

Also to answer regarding needing to eat half a kilo of beans...this is just one food type of hundreds of possible things you can cook. Of course you wouldn't be eating the same thing all the time, i agree that's a bit boring. There are numerous ways to add more protein to your food even on a plant based diet

 

If you want having at least like 80/100g of proteins per day yes.

[Schizophonia]

12 hours ago, Jannes said:

People react differently to different foods. Just because you had a bad experience with it doesnt mean everyone will have negative experiences. I didnt have negative experiences with it. You can also more rely on soy.

Why do you pretend not seeing it was clearly an aside and that i essentially pointed out that eating so many legumes every day was disgusting.
I didn't make a scientific comment or whatever.

[PsychedelicEagle]

People don't really need much protein. See these recommendations for longevity from Valter Longo: 

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(14)00062-X?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS155041311400062X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

People don't really need much protein. See these recommendations for longevity from Valter Longo: 

https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(14)00062-X?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS155041311400062X%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

Third assumption is literally "Higher protein consumption may be protective for older adults"

Then, these are epistemiological observations, even irresonable associations (proteins -> mTor, IGF1 etc -> aging).

[Jannes]

5 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Why do you pretend not seeing it was clearly an aside and that i essentially pointed out that eating so many legumes every day was disgusting.

Maybe that was the most important point to you but I didnt experience it as a highlighted point in your argumentation. Furthermore 1) taste is more of a subjective thing as you cant really debate taste so obviously that cant be the focus in a debate 2) your critique was pretty immature, making a show out of how disgusting vegan products are when its clearly subjective. I got tired of that from previous debates where you deliberately found the most disgusting vegan meals possible and used that as a counter argument so I didn't even want to comment on it this time.

5 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I didn't make a scientific comment or whatever.

3% protein and low protein quality are scientific comments. Or how are they not!?

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Maybe that was the most important point to you but I didnt experience it as a highlighted point in your argumentation. Furthermore 1) taste is more of a subjective thing as you cant really debate taste so obviously that cant be the focus in a debate

Yes, but when I talk about taste, i'm talking less about the palate's reaction and more about the overall sensation. Legumes are boring to eat and that is why they are always eaten well cooked with lots of condiments and possibly ingredients.  Who here is capable of eating 1000 kcals of legumes for example? 🤔

6 minutes ago, Jannes said:

your critique was pretty immature, making a show out of how disgusting vegan products are when its clearly subjective. I got tired of that from previous debates where you deliberately found the most disgusting vegan meals possible and used that as a counter argument so I didn't even want to comment on it this time.

I'm just talking about eating legumes.

7 minutes ago, Jannes said:

 

3% protein and low protein quality are scientific comments. Or how are they not!?

For the second time it was just a joke.

[Jannes]

2 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes, but when I talk about taste, i'm talking less about the palate's reaction and more about the overall sensation. Legumes are boring // that's not objective to eat and that is why they are always eaten well cooked with lots of condiments and possibly ingredients.  Who here is capable of eating 1000 kcals of legumes for example? 🤔

I probably couldnt eat a 1000 kcal meat that easily as I am not a big eater but I ate plenty of meals where lentils played a big part. Lentils can taste good just by themselves, probably better than unseasoned meat. You have to season meat as well so that it tastes good. 

But what is even your argument here. You season food so it tastes better. Taste is a multi faceted thing and good taste doesnt imply health. If you want to argue that way.