Veganism and spiral dynamics

[kyle barnett]

Hey guys. I've been vegan (with exceptions) for about 7 years now. For ethical reasons predominantly. But, veganism gets a bad wrap, and for a lot of good reasons. I used to be with a partner who was vegan and their family was vegan, I did a bit of vegan activism and while I was on board with supporting activism. I also do not like ideology and fundamentalism. I am no longer with that partner and have a new partner in which we are married. But now I'm practically the only vegan.

 

I still support the idea of moving towards veganism or reducing animal suffering as much as possible. I believe that we do have the potential to move towards a vegan world in the sense of moving away from factory farming and animal exploitation. Of course nothing set in stone. There's always going to be exploitation.

I see veganism similar to other areas of life such as politics where one end, people are defending of older values and sceptical of moving on and the other end of the spectrum people are ignorant and dismissive of older values that worked for generations.

Vegans using terms such as "animal holocaust, slavery" etc. But this is seen as extreme. I assume... That slavery or black rights, immigration etc. in the times had similar issues. Because those systems were dependant on conserving one group over another hence survival. Both in terms of self and community. You had this polarising effect of left and right. But as time goes on society evolves and it becomes easier to be more independent and in turn provide more for the outside world. Eg. Countries working in conjunction, cultures coming together, traditional standards lowered.

 

I think veganism is a great example of spiral dynamics green and how on one hand it's moving past human race as important and animals as inferior to animals being just as important as humans... It's also a matter of dismissing older traditions that have kept the human race functioning . Those older traditions in the sense of lower stage colours red, blue and orange etc. are what the vegan extremists so to speak would dismiss or not consider as much. Of course evolving through green can appear in many ways, not just humans vs animals. 

Now for me. I agree with alot of the science to veganism environmentally, nutritionally, ethically etc. Hence I am vegan and also feel if someone can't fully be vegan that doing their best to work towards it is an important value. 

I know there is the argument that "everyone's body is different" but as far as I am personally aware (feel free to point out some objections, I'm open minded) ... If you're getting a blood test, aside from B12, it should be pretty simple to find a plant alternative for any nutrient or energy source.

So part of me agrees with promoting it and consider that veganism is something we should strive towards as a society, but it's always a question of "where do you draw the line?" 

 

What are your guys thoughts? 

Edited July 13 by kyle barnett

[Dopa]

I think the problem with veganism is the health aspect. More and more vegans on youtube, etc. are coming out and saying they started to feel really bad after multiple years of being vegan EVEN though they supplemented properly (of course you can never know that, but according to their own words of what they supplemented and once they included animal products they started feeling better).

Also, there is no proof that vegan supplements actually work. You can take B12 pills and B12 will show up in a blood test, but you dont know if the body can properly convert B12 from a vegan source in the same way it does from animal products. With animal products we have hundreds of generations growing up, while a vegan diet is completely experimentally. Even if you feel well after being a vegan your entire life, you dont know how it will affect your children and the children of your children, there are no studies or anything about it.

Edited July 13 by Dopa

[aurum]

@kyle barnett We've had many threads of this topic in the past, I'd recommend searching the forum for those.

To summarize my position, I would love if we could create a product that effectively replaces animal meat. Obviously lab meat companies like Beyond Burger have attempted to do just that. But I'm not convinced that these lab meats are better from a health perspective yet. So at this point, I still eat animal foods.

That may all change in the upcoming decades. We are still in the infancy of such a project.

[kyle barnett]

I see. Il check out more of on the forum. Thanks for the input 

[Lila9]

Many vegans consume low-quality, ultra-processed meat and dairy alternatives, which are obviously bad for health.
But vegans don’t have to do that, there are unprocessed vegan foods that are more than decent replacements for meat and animal products.

 

 

 

[Michael569]

On 14/07/2024 at 9:09 AM, Lila9 said:

low-quality, ultra-processed

Not everything that is processed or ultra processed is inherently bad. You could make an argument that some ultra processed vegan foods, because they are fortified,  is beneficial for people who would have otherwise run into deficiencies on a vegan diet which is quite common in the wholefood plant based communities. Take examples of iron, fibre & soy protein fortified vegan burgers. I'd argue that's a benefit protecting folks from anaemia and protein deficiency (those who are not very good at planning their diet) 

Also, someone once told me this and it stuck " not all vegans do it for health, some vegans just want to eat cruelty-free Western Style vegan Diet" , I think that's a major factor here. The ethics vs the health side. You could be an ethical 100% vegan, never touch an animal product in your life and be incredibly unhealthy and we've all seen those people 

Edited July 15 by Michael569

[Dopa]

4 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Not everything that is processed or ultra processed is inherently bad. You could make an argument that some ultra processed vegan foods, because they are fortified,  is beneficial for people who would have otherwise run into deficiencies on a vegan diet which is quite common in the wholefood plant based communities.

@Michael569 I agree that it might be beneficial in this specific case, but overall its still incredebly unhealthy, so I think its a really weak argument. If you have to go to these lengths in order to avoid mineral deficiency, maybe a vegan diet is not suitable for (most) humans.

Edited July 15 by Dopa

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Not everything that is processed or ultra processed is inherently bad. You could make an argument that some ultra processed vegan foods, because they are fortified,  is beneficial for people who would have otherwise run into deficiencies on a vegan diet which is quite common in the wholefood plant based communities. Take examples of iron, fibre & soy protein fortified vegan burgers. I'd argue that's a benefit protecting folks from anaemia and protein deficiency (those who are not very good at planning their diet) 

Also, someone once told me this and it stuck " not all vegans do it for health, some vegans just want to eat cruelty-free Western Style vegan Diet" , I think that's a major factor here. The ethics vs the health side. You could be an ethical 100% vegan, never touch an animal product in your life and be incredibly unhealthy and we've all seen those people 

Definitely not always inherently bad. Ultra-processed vegan food might be good enough to keep them alive, like junk food, but not good enough to keep them healthy which at the end results in diseases arise from such lifestyle.

I know a man who used to be vegan for 10+ years and got diagnosed with diabetes because he consumed low quality ultra processed vegan food mainly. 

As a result he turned to be completely anti veganism and demonized it. I have seen the same happens to many former vegans. 

Yes, interestingly, many ethical vegans value the ideological factor more than the health factor, even though they can come together and don’t have to contradict.

[Basman]

"where do you draw the line?"

I don't think society should go vegan necessarily. It is too problematic nutritionally for many people and animal products and meats are incredibly rich sources of food that have long traditions in terms of both animal husbandry and as cuisine. In my opinion, a good compromise is to move closer to a semi-vegetarian diet with reduced meat consumption and make sourcing from local farms easier and more competitive than long-distance imports somehow.

Vegans should examine their biases as well when they promote a cultural shift towards veganism. Vegans have a major bias for cuteness which I rarely find them being honest about. You don't see vegans protesting fish farming or feeling bad about squashing an ant on the pavement. Does the life of farm animals matter because of a principle or because you are moved by emotion due to them being mammalian and cute?

If its based on the principle of preserving all life, how do you reconcile with the fact that plants are also a form of life that feels pain or the insects that are crushed when you drive your car/take a public transit? There are numerous examples such as these that you could think of where life is killed when you simply do something. In my opinion, most vegans are driven by the latter however, by the fact that farm animals are simply cute. That is fine if you are but recognize the fickle subjectivity of that position and the tunnel vision that activism based on cuteness results in.

At a certain level you have to accept that to be alive is at the expense of something else on a fundamental level. Millions of microorganisms are slain everyday inside of your body. Bugs are squashed and destroyed by you just driving your car and walking around. When you have a large population, then there will necessarily be a large cost payed by other species and the environment who we share the planet with. That is how life works.

[integral]

If everyone was at turquoise we would do farming and nutrition in a ethical conscious way. So in the end it’s not about trying to force everyone to eat that specific diet we got a raise everyone up to be more conscious and as a whole will be able to fix all of these unethical issues.

if you wanna use science fiction just make a 3-D printer that can print at the molecular level and now all the problems are solved.

[Michael569]

17 hours ago, Dopa said:

I agree that it might be beneficial in this specific case, but overall its still incredebly unhealthy, so I think its a really weak argument. If you have to go to these lengths in order to avoid mineral deficiency, maybe a vegan diet is not suitable for (most) humans.

The argument was made for the sake of someone who is vegan,  intends to remain vegan, has low level of nutritional knowledge (relatively common in vegan communities) but wants to remain reasonably healthy. The aim of the argument was not to try to convince you guys to eat processed food  

I agree with you that ideally if you're an omnivore you won't benefit from eating a plant based diet made out of mostly ultra processed food. I don't personally think veganism is unhealthy. Longitudinal studies show comparable results to Mediterranean diet which is sort of a gold standard of nutrition where longevity, chronic disease and all cause mortality is used as an end-line. 

There are just lots of nuances and it takes some research, practice and experience to get it right. The ethics of veganism is the ultimate argument and anyone who chooses to avoid harm should not be discouraged from the path but they need to be supported from the health perspective espcially if they are young or trying to get pregnant or already have an existing health condition. That was the core of my argument, sometimes UPF can help towards that endeavour but ofcourse it can also harm such as when vegans overeat fries, burgers and hypercaloric hyperpalatable vegan junk. 

[Schizophonia]

9 hours ago, Michael569 said:

The argument was made for the sake of someone who is vegan,  intends to remain vegan, has low level of nutritional knowledge (relatively common in vegan communities) but wants to remain reasonably healthy. The aim of the argument was not to try to convince you guys to eat processed food  

I agree with you that ideally if you're an omnivore you won't benefit from eating a plant based diet made out of mostly ultra processed food. I don't personally think veganism is unhealthy. Longitudinal studies show comparable results to Mediterranean diet which is sort of a gold standard of nutrition where longevity, chronic disease and all cause mortality is used as an end-line. 

There are just lots of nuances and it takes some research, practice and experience to get it right. The ethics of veganism is the ultimate argument and anyone who chooses to avoid harm should not be discouraged from the path but they need to be supported from the health perspective espcially if they are young or trying to get pregnant or already have an existing health condition. That was the core of my argument, sometimes UPF can help towards that endeavour but ofcourse it can also harm such as when vegans overeat fries, burgers and hypercaloric hyperpalatable vegan junk. 

 

[Jannes]

@Schizophonia Finally you show a picture of some normal vegan dish. 

[Michael569]

@Schizophonia no disagreement there 🙂 that's what I'd call a perfect batch. Cook 10 times as much in a single portion and you'll basically ace veganism on budget 

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

@Schizophonia Finally you show a picture of some normal vegan dish. 

3% protein guaranteed

 

12 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

@Schizophonia no disagreement there 🙂 that's what I'd call a perfect batch. Cook 10 times as much in a single portion and you'll basically ace veganism on budget 

Omg what a nightmare.

I've had gas just by reading.

 

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

3% protein guaranteed

maybe like 15-20 percent. I dont think a single ingredient has 3% or less protein. 

[Schizophonia]

20 hours ago, Jannes said:

maybe like 15-20 percent. I dont think a single ingredient has 3% or less protein. 

Must be very efficient protein, for sure.

[Jannes]

17 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Must be very efficient protein, for sure.

The combination out of rice and bean/ soy protein makes a quality protein source.

[Schizophonia]

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

The combination out of rice and bean/ soy protein makes a quality protein source.

Soy is one of the only somehow good source of proteins.

[Jannes]

6 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Soy is one of the only somehow good source of proteins.

If you look at it in isolation. Combining different plant protein sources increases their quality a lot.