Vegan is an Identity Disorder

[integral]

6 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Most people don't have the ability to cook or buy a varied diet because they live off junk food or trash, and then end up 60 years old with Musculoskeletal pains or diseases they wouldn't have otherwise had. This is in part because they have to work 60 hours a week to spoon-feed millionaires their lifestyles, and so snack on trash; also these days because of being broke, and more difficulty sourcing food globally due to in supply chains problems from the global tensions, and scarcity from global warming. 

This is a very common outcome: people are getting less healthy not more, and the percentage of people who are vegan in the population is very low. I would like to see your data that shows vegans vs the general population in terms of health issues, that would be interesting.

Because 1) it won't exist. 2) The problems with diet are down to junk food speed eating and a detachment to food, exemplified by factory farming; which alongside demonstrating people's disconnect with the most important part of their physical existence, also creates meat of an inferior quality.

I know there are always people who need certain things and certain diets, but nutrients are found in vegetables and fruit in plentiful quantities. Specifically minerals/protein and vitamins respectively.

It’s part of self development and growing up to become health-conscious and to eat healthy. Athletes Dial in their nutrition for Performance, health and longevity. It’s true that most people are unconsciously eating junk food every day and need to have a nutrition awakening at some point but it’s a false equivalency to say well then we should just all go vegan.

You can be healthy and eat healthy without any higher moral values, you do it just for yourself and that’s what most healthy people do.

@Princess Arabia Also if someone is over 50 and they’re in perfect health condition, with good skin no health problems then they should continue on that path, changing your diet is extremely dangerous in practice, for 50 years the body adapted to a specific diet and You just want to change it and assume that you’re making healthier choices? it’s far more complicated than any naïve approach. Genetics play a huge role in what you should be eating or not eating and that’s the last thing anyone thinks about when they read a book on nutrition and it tells you the perfect diet to follow. If something work for 50 years don’t change it. Don’t go crazy learning about every super food and trying to incorporate every trend into your diet, you’re going to create a world of problems for your body.

The problems that happen when changing your diet you’ll only know when you experience it yourself, because then you’re gonna start googling and researching health problems associated with dietary changes and you can start looking at other peoples testimonies and stories and you’ll realize just how bad it is and difficult it is and how much fake information there is and how much false studies there are and how much money there is and how complicated it is to actually know what your body needs.

Some people have commented that science has proven you could be a vegan, this is a very naïve and lazy approach to knowing what is true and what isn’t true in the world around us.

Edited July 15 by integral

[BlueOak]

6 hours ago, integral said:

It’s part of self development and growing up to become health-conscious and to eat healthy. Athletes Dial in their nutrition for Performance, health and longevity. It’s true that most people are unconsciously eating junk food every day and need to have a nutrition awakening at some point but it’s a false equivalency to say well then we should just all go vegan.

You can be healthy and eat healthy without any higher moral values, you do it just for yourself and that’s what most healthy people do.

@Princess Arabia Also if someone is over 50 and they’re in perfect health condition, with good skin no health problems then they should continue on that path, changing your diet is extremely dangerous in practice, for 50 years the body adapted to a specific diet and You just want to change it and assume that you’re making healthier choices? it’s far more complicated than any naïve approach. Genetics play a huge role in what you should be eating or not eating and that’s the last thing anyone thinks about when they read a book on nutrition and it tells you the perfect diet to follow. If something work for 50 years don’t change it. Don’t go crazy learning about every super food and trying to incorporate every trend into your diet, you’re going to create a world of problems for your body.

The problems that happen when changing your diet you’ll only know when you experience it yourself, because then you’re gonna start googling and researching health problems associated with dietary changes and you can start looking at other peoples testimonies and stories and you’ll realize just how bad it is and difficult it is and how much fake information there is and how much false studies there are and how much money there is and how complicated it is to actually know what your body needs.

Some people have commented that science has proven you could be a vegan, this is a very naïve and lazy approach to knowing what is true and what isn’t true in the world around us.

Nowhere in that post you quoted will you find I said anyone, let alone all people, should go vegan. You invented that as a projection of your general anti-veganism bias. People are incapable of having a vegan diet on mass, they don't take care of themselves enough. If you surmised me telling people what to eat from other posts I've made here, they were done directly to show you how telling people what diet to have or what identity to have generates resistance, and not to be surprised when you see it.

Talking generally here, not about veganism: Changing your diet is not dangerous; people do it all the time. Putting fear into people for trying to make healthy choices is unwarranted. Healthy choices require you to pay attention to your body and focus on it, if you are not doing that they are not healthy choices.

Then you talk about veganism being unhealthy again. It's vitamins, minerals, and proteins. If you are getting them you are getting them, if you are not you are not. It's honestly not rocket science. 

*I'll add personally I had a detox period coming off of meat also, and have heard its not uncommon. I was a heavy steak eater, and I enjoyed a lot of meat, but I got through it and my stomach adjusted over time; just as I did picking new foods that I appreciated, I dropped soya very quickly as an example, and consider that junk food. I've had similar detoxs in the past by doing cleanses; it wasn't much different.

Edited July 15 by BlueOak

[integral]

@BlueOak I disagree quite strongly with most of what you said, I went through the belly of the beast and came out the other end and I know what this journey looks like. Much of your beliefs are young and sounds very fresh off the kettle. You’re talking about detoxing from meat? That’s a very Vegan type of health belief.

—-

Edit: I realized I wrote this a little too strongly, I really don’t want to have any kind of debate on this topic. I have said what I think about dietary changes and you have stated how you feel about it and we can agree to disagree, in hopefully good faith!

The issue is the only way for people to know what is true is to experience it, it cannot happen through conversation. That’s the nature of these kind of debate topics.

Edited July 16 by integral

[Sandroew]

I'm shocked how Noone mentioned the fact that vegans have to take B12 supplements to be healthy. It's essential and you only get it from meat.

 

The crocodile metaphor makes sense to me. One of the thing It implies that we are putting maybe 15 thousand years of evolution (agriculture) against multiple 100.000 years of evolution. Which is a really interesting discussion by the way. The point is today's society/culture is going too much against our nature which helped us survive and has been developing for millions of years.

 

The modern lifestyle which allows us to discard survival tactics like eating meat is literally a newborn. 15 thousand years is nothing in terms of evolution in the classical sense. 

 

On the other hand, to be a developed person means to go against our long term nature even more. If we want to develop the human culture and be different than animals we have to put our big brain to use. 

 

IMO in nutrition we should be following the principle of long term evolution if health is your first value to go by. With that being said we should work on closing "animal factories" ASAP! But my post is already getting away too long. 

[BlueOak]

10 hours ago, integral said:

@BlueOak I disagree quite strongly with most of what you said, I went through the belly of the beast and came out the other end and I know what this journey looks like. Much of your beliefs are young and sounds very fresh off the kettle. You’re talking about detoxing from meat? That’s a very Vegan type of health belief.

—-

Edit: I realized I wrote this a little too strongly, I really don’t want to have any kind of debate on this topic. I have said what I think about dietary changes and you have stated how you feel about it and we can agree to disagree, in hopefully good faith!

The issue is the only way for people to know what is true is to experience it, it cannot happen through conversation. That’s the nature of these kind of debate topics.

I've been a vegan for 13 years now.

Yes when you stop eating something, there is a detox period. If you see people go vegan or vegetarian, it's quite common. For many reasons: You have cravings, and you can develop physical symptoms associated with them, but usually, they are mental in nature. When we eat anything, we change our body chemistry and our mood. This applies to any food, and you have a lack of body awareness if you are unable to experience this.

I'll give you an easy one coffee. Too easy, okay, some middle ground, sugar. Maybe too obvious still, bread. Bread is very filling and often used as a quick snack or comfort food, removing it from your diet is often noticeable both in how you have to approach meals (more time) and also in the comfortable feeling of being full which people use to mask emotions, without the bread they have to experience the emotion. 

When you remove anything from your diet there is also a distinctly physical component. Detoxes can happen when you drop any major food group and certainly heavy foods from your diet. In the bread example, you may notice your tongue is less white, and you may notice how your throat feels (also that suddenly you are losing weight!). Meat is an extremely heavy and dense food, going without it for a time allows your organs to cleanse and recover.

A complete week-long detox every six months from all food is a good idea, and if you are not doing it (which from your words I can assume) you are not allowing your body to recuperate and are always in a state of digestion or actively using the organs in your body, which builds up toxins and things you need to eliminate over time. It also tires them out.

This is why fasting, even historically, was so helpful, but it was less needed in times gone by because people didn't have all their trash in their food, and they didn't have as much food to process either. Being hungry and going without something was a more normal state of affairs. These days, people are overfed, their organs are in use when they should be resting, eating late at night, eating poorly, and never having a break.

I'm going to reflect your judgment equally and say you know so little about this topic that advising people on it is a very bad idea.

*If anyone follows the week detox advice every six months, do something that feels reasonable. if it's a vegetable detox, a salad maybe, water, or just a few days even that is beneficial, slow, and steady. This is one very direct way to experience physical, mental, and sometimes social, financial, or cultural associations and reactions to food.

Edited July 16 by BlueOak

[zurew]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

I'm going to reflect your judgment equally and say you know so little about this topic that advising people on it is a very bad idea

You are completely wasting your time with him. He is going to double, triple and then quadruple down on everything he says, even though he literally knows nothing about ethics or about nutrition science.

He is jumping from claim to claim to see what sticks and when he is cornered it all of a sudden becomes "its all relative and its just opinions, bro"

Edited July 16 by zurew

[enchanted]

 

[integral]

@BlueOak everything you’re saying is stuff aligned with green nutrition awakening. The green culture, and some of it is true, some of it is partially true and some of it doesn’t work at all. You’ll only be able to know that after expanding the bubble, triggered after experiencing some kind of health problem like developing candida on veganism.

A health problem will cause you to question what you know, people believe whatever they want because their survival does not force you to examine their beliefs so confirmation bias rules everything.

Edited July 16 by integral

[integral]

3 hours ago, zurew said:

You are completely wasting your time with him. He is going to double, triple and then quadruple down on everything he says, even though he literally knows nothing about ethics or about nutrition science.

He is jumping from claim to claim to see what sticks and when he is cornered it all of a sudden becomes "its all relative and its just opinions, bro"

but your biased wanting every detail proven through some study, or statistic or scientific measure… 

Everything he said is stuff I learned and figured out a long time ago and it’s a bubble. He has a bias because he has not experienced any health problems. Just go on YouTube and look at other peoples journeys on veganism. 

Edited July 16 by integral

[Basman]

On 14/07/2024 at 9:56 AM, Lila9 said:

I think that eating meat and identifying with it isn’t wise at all. Considering the fact that our digestive system isn’t designed for eating meat, it takes long hours to digest, and during those hours, it’s rotting in the body. I don’t want to imagine how it affects the body in the long term.

This is blatantly false. It is in fact the opposite. Vegetables, beans and grains are much harder to digest and tend to rot in your colon. Hence herbivores often have multiple stomachs and carnivores have smaller stomachs than omnivores.

The human body is highly adaptable and have survived eating meat for as long as they have existed. If humans weren't designed to eat meat then it wouldn't be possible for humans to survive in places like Greenland where they eat mostly meat historically. Vegans need to stop with the intellectual dishonesty.

[integral]

Leo eats nothing but meat because of extreme digestion problems and health problems.

Have you guys seen a health problem before?

This is complicated at scale you're being naive.

Edited July 16 by integral

[BlueOak]

5 hours ago, integral said:

@BlueOak everything you’re saying is stuff aligned with green nutrition awakening. The green culture, and some of it is true, some of it is partially true and some of it doesn’t work at all. You’ll only be able to know that after expanding the bubble, triggered after experiencing some kind of health problem like developing candida on veganism.

A health problem will cause you to question what you know, people believe whatever they want because their survival does not force you to examine their beliefs so confirmation bias rules everything.

Everything I just typed came from working with nutritionists, therapists, and other professionals for 10 years, and then living as a vegan for 13. In that time, I was required to learn a certain amount of information I passed on to patients, both to recommend products and to give suggestions to put them in contact with the correct specialist for them. You'll get more from nutritionists, professionals, or therapists in these fields who taught me, and less from a member of the public.

The information I gave is systemic to the body and its behaviors and has holistic qualities in an attempt to align them. It certainly has an emotional and behavioral component (green), but I've touched on the psychological, the biological, and the collective interpretations, we brought the bible and dictionary in for example. I've drawn associations between these things heavily linking identity and diet. I hinted at cultural, social, and financial components. I haven't explored every aspect in depth, 1) because your responses are quite short, and 2) because the thrust of your thread was directed at identity. If you want a better thread, take your own advice and bring more than a surface-level analysis yourself in your responses. Put the time in and give me more to work with, it's not a one-sided thing. I generally reflect who I am speaking to because those are the parts of me that are engaged.

Let's say for arguments sake I was completely orange in my approach, or blue. If you cannot talk to these aspects of yourself, that's a failing inside you. Do you understand that? For example in your analysis, the poster who brought up the bible, someone could kneejerk and say that is a blue response, but you can take the bible all the way to turquoise if that part of you is developed enough.

What you are saying is:

I see something I consider green in myself and I cannot talk to, elevate it or I reject it. This aspect of me is something I am resistant to.

If you were truly more conscious than this aspect I am showing you (whatever that means to your valueset), you would be able to not only be able to contain the reply I am giving you but elevate it. It would not provoke any negativity in you because you'd realise you were creating resistance to something.

 

Edited July 16 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

6 minutes ago, integral said:

Leo eats nothing but meat because of extreme digestion problems and health problems.

Have you guys seen a health problem before?

This is complicated at scale you're being naive.

Your nutrition science your confirmation bias is young dumb epistemology

Come on this has to show you that you have an issue to work on internally?

How do I reply: No you?

Anyway, it's been a pleasure going back and forth, take care of yourself, and don't take identity too seriously or how it's structured, it'll be easier in life.

[Schizophonia]

10 minutes ago, integral said:

Leo eats nothing but meat because of extreme digestion problems and health problems.

Have you guys seen a health problem before?

This is complicated at scale you're being naive.

I've talked to him about joe dispenza but he quickly brushed aside

[integral]

@BlueOak you realize I don't want to have a conversation about veganism. I've had this conversation 100 times, there's no need to talk about veganism to me or your epistemology or what's your Paradigm is.

Want me to level up after I said I don't want to do this? After I'm being attacked non-stop by everyone who doesn't even want to address the actual topic? I have not seen a single person actually understand the topic. 

[integral]

20 hours ago, integral said:

I realized I wrote this a little too strongly, I really don’t want to have any kind of debate on this topic. I have said what I think about dietary changes and you have stated how you feel about it and we can agree to disagree, in hopefully good faith!

The issue is the only way for people to know what is true is to experience it, it cannot happen through conversation. That’s the nature of these kind of debate topics.

Why did I write this? lol

You're claiming I didn't listen and I should listen to you more because of all of your life experience? You didn't listen to me...

Edited July 16 by integral

[BlueOak]

26 minutes ago, integral said:

@BlueOak you realize I don't want to have a conversation about veganism. I've had this conversation 100 times, there's no need to talk about veganism to me or your epistemology or what's your Paradigm is.

Want me to level up after I said I don't want to do this? After I'm being attacked non-stop by everyone who doesn't even want to address the actual topic? I have not seen a single person actually understand the topic. 

Really blunt and narrow then:
Thread about the identity of vegans -> Don't want to talk about veganism.
Result: ??????

More broadly; You don't want to talk about X, Y related to it, just the definition you've given, in the way you've made it. 
Result: Life never works that way.

*BTW you already have leveled up as you called it, you don't want to talk about identity anymore, because arguing identity is like kicking yourself over and over in the shins. It's painful, you don't get very far and you often fall over. Trying to lighten the mood, you can always call me out on my need/love to debate :D.

Edited July 16 by BlueOak

[integral]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:51 AM, integral said:

Also if someone is over 50 and they’re in perfect health condition, with good skin no health problems then they should continue on that path, changing your diet is extremely dangerous in practice, for 50 years the body adapted to a specific diet and You just want to change it and assume that you’re making healthier choices? it’s far more complicated than any naïve approach. Genetics play a huge role in what you should be eating or not eating and that’s the last thing anyone thinks about when they read a book on nutrition and it tells you the perfect diet to follow. If something work for 50 years don’t change it. Don’t go crazy learning about every super food and trying to incorporate every trend into your diet, you’re going to create a world of problems for your body.

I said the above and you responded below with-

22 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Talking generally here, not about veganism: Changing your diet is not dangerous; people do it all the time. Putting fear into people for trying to make healthy choices is unwarranted. Healthy choices require you to pay attention to your body and focus on it, if you are not doing that they are not healthy choices.

First you misrepresented what I said, we can make healthy choices up to a certain level, I'm talking about going beyond that, to cut out meat completely, to do something purely 100% Keto, I think it's dangerous. Paradigm versus paradigm. Now you're going to ask for evidence that you deem worthy as evidence. It's not that there's no evidence in my Paradigm it's that you want evidence that suits your way of making sense of the world. I don't agree with your way of making sense of the world so the whole conversation just is pointless. we cannot focus on content we have to focus entirely on epistemology here. Which is what I've done I'm trying to explain that with certain life experiences you're going to start doing research beyond what you're currently fixated on.

[integral]

I've seen people destroy themselves changing diets for over 10 years this is an extremely common pattern widespread and Society and you're not addressing this statement so what conversation are we really having here? And I knew this was going to happen so I focused only on the epistemology and how your your perspective is going to shift on its own through life experiences and through consuming more of life, so I do not want to have an evidence-based conversation here that just goes nowhere.

Edited July 16 by integral

[BlueOak]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

I said the above and you responded below with-

First you misrepresented what I said, we can make healthy choices up to a certain level, I'm talking about going beyond that, to cut out meat completely, to do something purely 100% Keto, I think it's dangerous. Paradigm versus paradigm. Now you're going to ask for evidence that you deem worthy as evidence. It's not that there's no evidence in my Paradigm it's that you want evidence that suits your way of making sense of the world. I don't agree with your way of making sense of the world so the whole conversation just is pointless. we cannot focus on content we have to focus entirely on epistemology here. Which is what I've done I'm trying to explain that with certain life experiences you're going to start doing research beyond what you're currently fixated on.

My way of making sense of the world is to take the information I've been given and then fact-check it. If it holds up, I reconsider my position. I look for the best I can find and then cross reference. Then I try to bring in as many factors as possible to form a well rounded conclusion. I do use personal experiential experience as well but only as a starting point to learn more.

If you are unwilling to indulge that or our ways of dealing with information are incompatible I understand.