Vegan is an Identity Disorder

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

I think it's just a failure to mimic Christian morality.

In a world with no objective morality such as ours, veganism is unjustifiable. When it comes to health, it forces you to take supplements and even then can lead to issues, and is known to cause more brain fog than a more meat focused diet.

Even if subjectively you felt guilt for eating meat, that would be no reason for veganism to be universally true and would therefore be an issue of you ridding yourself of the guilt.

Its a tricky one if we take the definition of objective:
 

1) Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.

"objective reality."

2) Based on observable phenomena; empirical.

"objective facts."

3) Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: synonym: fair.

"an objective critic."

1) Cannot exist unless we expand the subject.
2) Does exist.
3) Can exist in part.
 

If you believe there is no objective morality among people, then anything can be justified. However, objective morality does exist collectively, reflected in what society generally accepts and what laws, institutions, and social contracts are built upon. This collective morality is shaped by various templates, such as the Bible, family beliefs, laws, or communal social norms. It forms part of the 'collective mind' or 'collective consciousness' and often revolves around harm or loss that can be demonstrated toward another party, protected by the same laws, institutions, or social norms.

This explains why so many people try to reshape society according to their own belief systems, seeking protection and validation for their identities. They often target entities outside the same protection, viewing them as influenceable or easy marks. This reactive mindset can diminish as individuals feel less threatened by differing beliefs, although it can still surface even in well-intentioned people, especially when they feel a core part of their existence is under threat: Exampled by the debates in this thread.

I can only tell you what happens here in this case: When you stop considering something food, your relationship with it changes significantly, as you can probably imagine mentally, but it also happens physically and in your unconscious impulses or cravings. If enough people held this belief, animals would receive significantly more protection by those same collective constructs I've spoken about, which are formed from the thoughts, mind, impulses and cravings of the population.

Edited July 13 by BlueOak

[Jannes]

@integral Humans are omnivores and rely heavily on cooked food. Although we can digest a variety of food groups a plant based diet can still be healthy if planned and executed appropriately. Thats are current scientific/ biological facts. 

Although I now that killing is a part of nature I as a human have the privilege to obstain from that (natural) cruelty to some degree and I also have an interest to stop damage to the environment. These reasons make me decide to reduce or even eliminate animal foods that I consume. 

 

Where in this reasoning would you say is an identity disorder at place? 

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Where in this reasoning would you say is an identity disorder at place? 

*When you find a metaphor that sounds cool but really isn't that accurate, but you've spent so much time thinking about it that you're engaging in the sunk cost fallacy and cannot accept where you're wrong*

Edited July 13 by Carl-Richard

[integral]

If someone attacks you and you have no choice, you kill them.

Because killing is part of this reality, this human Experience, this human life. 

Killing is a part of you, are you going to sacrifice yourself because killing is wrong and you're so moral? No there's nothing spiritual about it, you could just kill for self-defense. Your life is not anymore special than theirs. So you're a killer. 

You kill mosquitoes, every part of being alive is just selfishness because that's what identity is.

A vegan being attacked will kill his attacker so therefore vegans are killers.

Every part of reality is part of you. It doesn't matter if you never killed anything in your life and you live in an insulated environment. At your core the self and identity has to preserve itself and killing is part of that mechanism. You take any vegan throw them in the jungle they'll kill everything and survive.

We are not talking about morals and we are not talking about what is the healthy diet to eat. This is about identity and reality.

Every part of reality is an accepted or rejected part of your identity. 

Everyone here is accepting some percentage of reality and rejecting some percentage of reality that constitutes your ego.

If you're a vegan and you're born on a farm in the 1500s how are you going to sustain this? It would be completely dysfunctional for you to be a vegan on an animal farm. And if you're more conscious you'll come to terms with some suffering is unavoidable and you're going to do your best to minimize it for the whole but when you get to this point you don't Define yourself as a vegan anymore, you will align yourself more with something adaptive. 

If you don't play ball with reality and align your identity with reality in some way you create severe struggles. Everyone is aligning their identity in Comfort with their environment. It's not arbitrary.

Part of what you are and part of this reality is that you're a killer and your identity needs to come into alignment with reality or else it's all struggle it's all trauma it's all PTSD it's all a massive issue. Trauma is that your identity was not ready to experience something. Went to war and couldn't handle death. Your identity adapted to a insulated environment that did not 100% take all of reality into itself.

Edited July 13 by integral

[UnbornTao]

What's reality? Why the identity requisites?

What you do, which then may become a self-trait, and what is the case, don't have to be connected. In fact, you can do anything. Where is the issue with acting a certain way and identifying as X or Y? Is eating fruit less aligned with reality than eating bugs? 

You could identify yourself as a plethora of things: singer, writer, humanity, animal, an entity, a soul, a body, an ape, the universe, a culture. What you are is up for grabs, while identity is open-ended. What is it for real?

Edited July 14 by UnbornTao

[integral]

@UnbornTao you are not rejecting singers writers humans animals gamers, so those are all part of your identity. That's the part of reality that you accepted. You didn't accept Nazis, because it creates massive dysfunction emotionally, your identity is completely rejecting Nazis, you cannot align yourself with it. 

35 minutes ago, integral said:

Everyone here is accepting some percentage of reality and rejecting some percentage of reality that constitutes your ego.

Edited July 13 by integral

[Jannes]

 

19 minutes ago, integral said:

Your identity adapted to a insulated environment that did not 100% take all of reality into itself.

I agree with most you said above. Even when I was vegan I knew 100% that when I would face a major survival challenge I would kill animals no problem. And I continued to eat vegan because I was not in a survival situation in that moment. That was the reality I was facing. Maybe you have an identity disorder when you identify with a Stone Age hunter. Become conscious of the couch you are sitting on bro, survival challenges are different now. 

41 minutes ago, integral said:

@UnbornTao You didn't accept Nazis, because it creates massive dysfunction emotionally, your identity is completely rejecting Nazis, you cannot align yourself with it. 

I recently watched a movie about nazi concentration camps. There was this pethadic nazi officer who had a mansion above the concentration camp. In the morning he light a cigar and then took a sniper rifle and sniped a few jews just for fun. Then he smoked the rest of the cigar in cowboy fashion and ate his breakfast carefree. You know I could identify very well with this guy on a metaphysical level. Even on a human level I can appreciate the power of group think and the weakness of the mind when it is in fear. I experienced how much the mind gets twisted when it is not strong enough. I could understand very well that I could be that guy if I was nurtured differently. So I identified very deeply with this guy. Yet I didnt shoot any jews to death that day. 

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

*When you find a metaphor that sounds cool but really isn't that accurate, but you've spent so much time thinking about it that you're engaging in the sunk cost fallacy and cannot accept where you're wrong*

Yeah. 

[UnbornTao]

14 hours ago, integral said:

@UnbornTao you are not rejecting singers writers humans animals gamers, so those are all part of your identity. That's the part of reality that you accepted. You didn't accept Nazis, because it creates massive dysfunction emotionally, your identity is completely rejecting Nazis, you cannot align yourself with it. 

There's nothing in existence that says Nazis or anything else for that matter, can't exist.

We as selves work hard to actively avoid death (it is our whole job), yet it is part of "reality." We may identify ourselves as alive beings, so what does that say about this dilemma?

Look deeper into identity.

Edited July 14 by UnbornTao

[integral]

@UnbornTao isn’t a fear of death the most obvious state of disfunction? The circle of life and death is part of reality and if it’s not part of someone’s identity they have body dysmorphia 🤣. Man this is never gonna end. Death is part of the bodies design, of course you need to come in to terms and align your identity with the full human experience that incorporates death.

My father is completely in fear of death. Lives dreading that one day it’s going to happen. A identity/ego that is out of alignment with reality and so dysfunctional, he does not accept death as part of his identity.

Edited July 14 by integral

[UnbornTao]

10 hours ago, integral said:

@UnbornTao isn’t a fear of death the most obvious state of disfunction?

I don't get where you're coming from on this thread. In any case...

Everyone is afraid of death since it is the antithesis of yourself--no more you. You're holding an idea or notion rather than the fact.

Edited July 14 by UnbornTao

[Staples]

@integral You could also just stop being a human. Then no identity crisis

[integral]

@UnbornTao I didn’t know everyone was terrified of death. This is new to me. I fully faced death and I’m long past the point where I need to continue living. Everything happening is bonus, I don’t need to continue being me for a second longer, I don’t need to continue experiencing this for a second longer.

and I’m not enlightened, I don’t need to continue consuming this experience. I’ve completely indulged in it and I’m completely full. i’m sure there’s more delicious experience to be had but it it’s OK, if it continues or not it doesn’t matter.

How much more of experience do you need to consume?

Edited July 14 by integral

[integral]

14 minutes ago, Staples said:

@integral You could also just stop being a human. Then no identity crisis

but what if identity always existed even before you dreamed up a human lol maybe there’s no escape 

[Staples]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

but what if identity always existed even before you dreamed up a human lol maybe there’s no escape 

Maybe! That's a big assumption to make. You'd have to look into that.

[BlueOak]

9 hours ago, integral said:

If someone attacks you and you have no choice, you kill them.

Because killing is part of this reality, this human Experience, this human life. 

Killing is a part of you, are you going to sacrifice yourself because killing is wrong and you're so moral? No there's nothing spiritual about it, you could just kill for self-defense. Your life is not anymore special than theirs. So you're a killer. 

You kill mosquitoes, every part of being alive is just selfishness because that's what identity is.

A vegan being attacked will kill his attacker so therefore vegans are killers.

Every part of reality is part of you. It doesn't matter if you never killed anything in your life and you live in an insulated environment. At your core the self and identity has to preserve itself and killing is part of that mechanism. You take any vegan throw them in the jungle they'll kill everything and survive.

We are not talking about morals and we are not talking about what is the healthy diet to eat. This is about identity and reality.

Every part of reality is an accepted or rejected part of your identity. 

Everyone here is accepting some percentage of reality and rejecting some percentage of reality that constitutes your ego.

If you're a vegan and you're born on a farm in the 1500s how are you going to sustain this? It would be completely dysfunctional for you to be a vegan on an animal farm. And if you're more conscious you'll come to terms with some suffering is unavoidable and you're going to do your best to minimize it for the whole but when you get to this point you don't Define yourself as a vegan anymore, you will align yourself more with something adaptive. 

If you don't play ball with reality and align your identity with reality in some way you create severe struggles. Everyone is aligning their identity in Comfort with their environment. It's not arbitrary.

Part of what you are and part of this reality is that you're a killer and your identity needs to come into alignment with reality or else it's all struggle it's all trauma it's all PTSD it's all a massive issue. Trauma is that your identity was not ready to experience something. Went to war and couldn't handle death. Your identity adapted to a insulated environment that did not 100% take all of reality into itself.

You are still using your identity as a template for everyone else's and then justifying it. There is no need when it comes to diet. If it's not about diet, stop making it about diet lol. Can you not see you are arguing against yourself?  Anyway.

I can do the exact opposite argument. I could mirror this almost exactly word for word but let's try to expand it instead, I am sorry meat eaters but to meet like with like, I'll need to do a partial ego hit. It isn't personal, it's to show the futility of this line of self-justification masked as a universal norm, it's just as bad when vegans do it to you (as I am sure many are fed up with already) watch:

Protecting things is part of you, protecting this planet, the creatures in it. Everything has a spiritual component, destruction, and death do as well, it sounds like you've detached yourself from it. You will want to kill less when an animal is no longer food. Psychologically, you will consider these creatures differently, and biologically, this will be reinforced in your own body as of the many unconscious impulses you have. 

Killing on mass, like you do every day you put a piece of meat in your mouth, isn't required to survive. It's a merry-go-round of slaughter that has led us to the horrors of factory farming, which is condensed killing and suffering in a small space to feed an ever-growing population. You do it and support it because you choose to and it tastes good. You, like everyone else reading this (and me) are at the mercy of our cravings when we indulge them.

We are not in the 1500's. I could justify a heck of a lot from the 1500's like chopping people's hands off for theft, or killing someone with a sword because he said the wrong words to me. People lived on almost nothing, for almost nothing, life was both simple and, during that particular time period much akin to slavery to landowners. As to food, if you were a peasant off the farm in the city your diet was often trash, on the farm, it was quite good relatively, it's a bad example you've picked there. However, you can't cherry-pick parts of an era and say that fits my worldview, and then ignore the entire collective circumstance that formed or supported a belief system. This is not the 1500's.

Back to hitting the ego in reflection, as you are doing:
 
Don't align yourself with being a meat eater, it's backward, justified from a piece of the worldview in the 1500's? You are at the mercy of your cravings for your decisions, destroying the planet by warming it up, raising fuel and property prices to support your dietary choices, and so collectively making all our lives worse. Also, add the other things I don't like that don't fit my identity or my need to tell you how to live or define reality. - Can you see how this is futile? You, I or anyone else can't remake the world in your own image, when you try you are in for a lot of disappointment, most of all from trying to define virtues and morals. If I was seriously saying this I would expect an egoic backlash. (It'll probably trigger one anyway).

You are not above that because you consider yourself more conscious in certain areas of life, in this one, you are almost unconscious of your own meta pattern here. You are saying this is a set of beliefs to live by, it's my set so I'll justify it by behaviors that I find appropriate, and try to make it universal. We are all doing this, but your line of reason focuses entirely on impulses you wished people embodied more often. Of all of them, the killer is not one we need to encourage!

This next bit isn't required; it's just an expanded way to view all this:

These animals are pieces of yourself on a deeper level, and the experience is all that exists in each moment, so you are killing yourself each time you have a meal, causing suffering on levels you don't even comprehend. The entirety of the farming industry, like all of life, evolves by what we want, do, and our cravings or impulses. That means these parts of you are evolving to be subservient to bacteria in your gut, your internal flora and fauna, and your mental associations wanting the taste of meat. I don't want to keep insulting meat eaters here because honestly, until someone comes at my ego I live and let live, but this entire line of reasoning is subservient to bacterium and cravings justifying itself. Which we all do to an extent, but when it prompts people to tell others how to live you can see how it ends up.

Edited July 14 by BlueOak

[Javfly33]

@integral The point of identity is that you can not be what you identify with LMAO.

Thats why is called an identity. Is relative. Is never You. 

[Javfly33]

4 hours ago, integral said:

but what if identity always existed even before you dreamed up a human lol

No. 

4 hours ago, integral said:

but what if identity always existed even before you dreamed up a human lol maybe there’s no escape 

The escape is You and you only because is the Only thing that is not an identity. 

 

You just need a clear Awakening about what You are. Something that Unfortunately has not happened yet.

 

But dont lose faith It can not happen in this lifetime. 

[BlueOak]

One thing that splinters reality is trying to make our beliefs, virtues, morals, patterns, and impulses universal. Whatever aspect of us driving that need unconsciously is often something to spend some time with to heal, often a painful memory, trapped emotion, reactive part of ourselves, cyclic pattern, or pressure we still have in our lives.

Edited July 14 by BlueOak

[Salvijus]

"Killing is part of life"

Maybe that should've been your argument.