Vegan is an Identity Disorder

[Princess Arabia]

58 minutes ago, toasty7718 said:

I think it's understandable to question the nature of humans...especially in relation to veganism and animal agriculture.

However, comparing human dietary choices to the instinctual survival behaviors of other animals—like a crocodile's need to kill to survive—overlooks a crucial difference ... our capacity for ethical reasoning and moral decision-making.

 

Humans have a complex biology. But suggesting that a vegan lifestyle is a rejection of our nature simplifies of humans.

 

Our adaptability and intelligence have allowed us to thrive on a variety of diets throughout different time periods and in different environments. The argument for veganism is less about denying our biological potential for omnivorous diets and more about electing to make choices that align with ethical considerations regarding animal welfare, environmental sustainability, and health.

 

saying veganism is an identity crisis or a form of "dysmorphia" misunderstands the motivations behind the choice.

 

Vegans usually become vegan in the first place via critical thinking about the impact of their choices on animals... the planet... and their own health. This isn't "rejection of humanity" but its an embrace of our unique human ability to reflect on and adjust our behaviors based on ethical considerations.

 

& I also think that implying selfishness is foundational to being human underestimates human compassion and our capability for altruism.
 

History and current history are have tons of humans acting against their immediate self-interest for the greater good or in defense of ethical principles. The choice to be vegan is an example wherein individuals might see the welfare of animals and the environment over personal convenience or habit.

 

Embracing veganism doesn't mean denying our nature any more than adopting any other ethical standpoint does. It's more so about the fact that we see other animals might eat each other out of necessity while also seeing that have the privilege of choice. Utilizing our human attributes of empathy and moral reasoning, I think adopting a plant-based lifestyle isn't "being untrue to our nature" and isn't an "identity crisis" ... it's a celebration of the best aspects of what it can mean to be human.

 

& using your same logic, it's perfectly nature for humans to rape each other and kill infants, which has been done by humans for thousands of years because "humans are killers." Humans have the capacity for moral reasoning. I disagree. 

Well said.

[Staples]

2 hours ago, integral said:

@Scholar by the way if you want to rape and you’re perfectly fine with rape and you rape then you’re completely in alignment!

Well, I think such a person should question why their alignment is so. If you're conscious about what you're doing, and you know what you are doing has a negative effect on the victim, then what you are doing is not love.

A crocodile only kills because it does not know how or have the ability to meet its own needs in a more loving way. If you gave crocodiles high levels of consciousness and the ability to use tools, you bet they would turn to agriculture or laboratory grown meat.

If you had the ability to choose between butchering a chicken for meat, or just having the meat, you would choose avoiding the butchering every time, right?

This is partially the reason why religions have developed ritual slaughtering practices, like Halal meat. They are recognizing the devilry in which they partake and seek forgiveness from God.

I'm personally not at all religious, but Jesus really put it best. "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." 

The most divine thing in this reality is consciousness, and all of our efforts should go towards making consciousness a pleasant experience for all. Of course, what is pleasant is subjective. But if one person's pleasure costs ten person's suffering, pursuing that path is selfishness and devilry. It's a net loss. That's the whole game, maximize pleasant experience without being a devil (AKA, asshole). 

Edited July 13 by Staples

[strika]

3 hours ago, integral said:

😂😂😂 pure gold.

this is the confusion: your body has intelligence you get hungry you get horny if you are not aligned with these biological processes then your identity is not aligned with your body.

Your whole argument falls apart in this first sentence.

It's true that your body has intelligence but in this case you're misinterpreting it, there is no such thing as getting hungry, what you call hunger is the process of your digestive system outstreching and going back to normal and cleaning itself, that feeling of your stomach being empty and when it starts making sounds, that's it. Hunger doesn't exist because humans naturally don't need food, we never did, there was a period in our history when we ate food (and we still do) but there was a period in our history when we didn't eat food, that was before we devolved from 5D into 3D and started sacrificing other beings, everything started going downhill from here, our lifespans used to be 1000+ years old, now they are below 100, we used to be in constant joy, now there is suffering (as karma for sacrifice/eating). Also another point is that you may feel a desire for food in your mouth but again that's not hunger, that's just addiction that goes away at some point, it's normal that if you ate meat for a long time that you will desire it's taste the next day again.

And also another point is that you may ask why a person starts to feel low energy when they stop eating, the reason is because food has been a main supplier of energy for them for a long time, of course a person can use prana instead but making that transition from food to prana will be hard and low energy, a person needs to find other sources of energy, for example prana from saving sexual energy, prana from movement, prana from resting instead of sleeping is a major one, etc. Once a person makes the complete transition to breatharianism they will have more energy than they ever had with meat, a breatharian who also doesn't waste sexual energy and doesn't sleep beats a meat eater in any kind of physical competition 100/100 times.

[RendHeaven]

9 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

and looking like orcs from Skyrim.

💀💀💀

[zurew]

@integral Okay, I will get more serious and will engage since you seem to actually think that you are making some deep profound argument here.

 

1) Veganism is compatible with not demonizing eating meat, so your long ramblings about that is unnecessary (if you want to target all vegans) because it only target a fraction of  vegans. 

2)  In some cases you are asserting that acceptance entails doing an action (vegans don't just need to accept that their body might sometimes crave meat, but they have to act on it and they actually have to eat meat ) and in other cases you are saying you don't necessary have to act on it (in a cannibal's or in a raper's case  - you seem to be saying that they can accept that they have desires without needing to act on those desires). - this seems to be a very obvious contradiction that you will need to untangle. 

3) You also seem to be making a seperate claim from all of those, namely that there are some actions that are absolutely necessary for one's survival and not doing those specific actions would be the rejection of your own biology.  You keep bringing up the crocodile example, where the croc actually have to kill and eat meat in order to survive , but you are yet to establish why humans have to eat meat in order to survive.

 

[Sincerity]

I'm all for integrating the killer energy. I think everyone needs to be able to kill - mainly on the mental plane. To let go of their past, to break off bad relationships, to release whatever is no longer resonating. Seriously - people fucking need to be able to kill.

Also physically in self defense or in defense of one's closest ones. If such defense is genuinely necessary, as the ultimate last resort.

But this energy must be paired with benevolence and wisdom. If you're disregarding your good heart in order to intentionally embrace selfishness - short-term that's a cool experiment I think, but in the long-term that's a road of misery and unforeseen consequences. That's building karma.

I'm not a vegan btw.

[integral]

i’m tired of having to explain this for the 100 time, Reread what I wrote from a high consciousness perspective and stop projecting bunch of low consciousness shit onto it. 😂

I’m not justifying any immoral act because selfishness needs to be acted on and all of this nonsense that you guys are inventing.

The fundamental point is there is a relationship between identity and reality. If your values are in conflict with you existing you’re resisting reality.

You’re gay and hate that you’re gay.

you’re a vegan and you hate everyone that eats meat.

…

very simple.

you can be vegan to minimize suffering for the whole while at the same time accepting reality and the human race and all of that = Harmony with identity and reality.

—-

The projection and straw man I just received from you guys is shocking.

No I don’t think this is profound, but your projections definitely are something to be examined.

it’s a very basic pattern.

The relationship between the human and the crocodile is that they’re both selfish things. and when you awaken you can bring yourself into disfunction and then you need a second awakening to bring yourself out of it. and that second awakening is understanding the selfish nature that you are and accepting it while at the same time minimizing suffering for the whole.

🙃 

Edited July 13 by integral

[Javfly33]

What you need to understand is that meat is survival food.

When you were hunter gather it had a point to eat meat. 

Once there is a choice, naturally you choose plant based food.

Is evolution. As you said, being a crocodile. The point is you are not a crocodile, you are a human. Going back to being a crocodile is not good. Is a step backwards in the evolution. 

Edited July 13 by Javfly33

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, integral said:

i’m tired of having to explain this for the 100 time, Reread what I wrote from a high consciousness perspective and stop projecting bunch of low consciousness shit onto it. 😂

I’m not justifying any immoral act because selfishness needs to be acted on and all of this nonsense that you guys are inventing.

The fundamental point is there is a relationship between identity and reality. Not all identity is equal.

Buddy,Im not vegan, but you are not making any sense, your explanations are weak and none of them really address any of the objections that were laid out by others in this thread.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises that you laid out.

 

It seems that you haven't thought through this at all or you are incredibly bad at communicating whatever you are trying to communicate.

The argument that you laid out here is 4chan level quality.

High consciousness forum and moderators cant track the basic implications of what they are saying. This is just incredibly sad,especially given that you think you have delivered some deep profound insight here.

[Sincerity]

32 minutes ago, integral said:

i’m tired of having to explain this for the 100 time, Reread what I wrote from a high consciousness perspective and stop projecting bunch of low consciousness shit onto it. 😂

I’m not justifying any immoral act because selfishness needs to be acted on and all of this nonsense that you guys are inventing.

The fundamental point is there is a relationship between identity and reality.

I think your (original) post has a bunch of errors in thinking like

• Humans being killers = reality (not reality but interpretation of experience)
• Humans being killers --> ok but does that mean we must be carnivorous/non-vegan? Monkeys might kill but are they carnivorous?
• Rejecting the biology we were born with --> we're not born carnivorous though
• A crocodile not being able to come to terms with the fact that they need to kill to survive --> we don't need to kill/eat animals to survive in the current times
• Yes there is a component of higher consciousness involved but in most cases when someone awakens to the Equality of all beings and the love of all beings they choose 2 paths. They accept that selfishness is fundamental to survival or they reject being a human and develop identity dysmorphia. --> I don't think any of these paths are actually what ensues when someone awakens. Accepting selfishness doesn't necessitate intentionally participating in it. "Rejection" of being a human and developing dysmorphia is also unhealthy and unwise. Why would these be the only 2 options?
• Accept what you see in the mirror, a crocodile. 🐊 --> Is that what you see in the mirror? I see a humanoid. 

Edited July 13 by Sincerity

[UnbornTao]

You can clarify what your point is and why you're making it, to start with.

Edited July 13 by UnbornTao

[martins name]

Humans aren't crocodiles or hunters or gatherers, we are fundamentally malleable and adaptable. Humans don't have rigid set identities that we should follow. The freedom to choose our lifestyle and identity is what makes us human. It's human to hunt and it's human to farm and it's human to use higher reasoning to choose what desires to act on. I think you make the mistake of believing that we used to be primitive savages in ancient times. Some were but most weren't. 

[BlueOak]

19 hours ago, integral said:

A human is a killer. That is the fundamental nature of a human that vegans cannot come to terms with.

A Vegan rejects what they are. They reject what they were born as. They reject the biology they were born with.

Veganism is a identity crisis in disguise.

It’s like a crocodile not being able to come to terms with the fact that they need to kill to survive.

yes there is a component of higher consciousness involved but in most cases when someone awakens to the Equality of all beings and the love of all beings they choose 2 paths. They accept that selfishness is fundamental to survival or they reject being a human and develop identity dysmorphia.

With this dysmorphia they are now incompatible with their own bodies.

It’s like a anorexic person looking in the mirror and thinking they’re too fat. They look in the mirror and think they are too selfish, when really you’re exactly what you’re supposed to be.

Accept selfishness stop hating yourself.

Accept what you see in the mirror, a crocodile. 🐊

A human is a farmer, a producer. This is the fundamental nature of humans that non-farmers and consumers cannot come to terms with.
A non-farmer or consumer rejects what they are. They reject what they were born to do. They reject the biology they were born with.
Non-Farmers are an identity crisis in disguise.

Let me make a case for my own identity because I feel it challenged in some way, so I can make myself feel better because I am reflecting on an uncomfortable fact of my own life, but conversely I will resist realizing that because it is easier to demonize the other and rationalize they are incorrect because they have a different belief system. (Everyone does this don't feel bad).

I'll do it again: Traditionalism

A human is born to socially adapt. That is the fundamental nature of the species that traditionalists cannot come to terms with.
Traditionalism is an identity crisis in disguise.

Again?

A human is born to build structures and order. That is the fundamental nature of the species that progressives cannot come to terms with.
Progressivism is an identity crisis in disguise.

Another?

A human has a deeply spiritual connection. That is the fundamental nature of existence that atheists cannot come to terms with.
Aethism is an identity crisis in disguise.

And to finish.

A human is a physical creation. That is the fundamental nature of existence that spiritual people cannot come to terms with.
Spiritual people are an identity crisis in disguise.

I could expand these into several lines, paragraphs, or an entire thesis on identities, so don't bother picking them apart too much, it won't go anywhere.

Existence is fluid. Its whatever you make it.

Edited July 13 by BlueOak

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, integral said:

i’m tired of having to explain this for the 100 time, Reread what I wrote from a high consciousness perspective and stop projecting bunch of low consciousness shit onto it. 😂

I’m not justifying any immoral act because selfishness needs to be acted on and all of this nonsense that you guys are inventing.

The fundamental point is there is a relationship between identity and reality. If your values are in conflict with you existing you’re resisting reality.

You’re gay and hate that you’re gay.

you’re a vegan and you hate everyone that eats meat.

…

very simple.

you can be vegan to minimize suffering for the whole while at the same time accepting reality and the human race and all of that = Harmony with identity and reality.

—-

The projection and straw man I just received from you guys is shocking.

No I don’t think this is profound, but your projections definitely are something to be examined.

it’s a very basic pattern.

The relationship between the human and the crocodile is that they’re both selfish things. and when you awaken you can bring yourself into disfunction and then you need a second awakening to bring yourself out of it. and that second awakening is understanding the selfish nature that you are and accepting it while at the same time minimizing suffering for the whole.

🙃 

I would have probably skipped my above post had I read this first, so apologies there, because you are in extreme resistance to resistance. I see it all the time in spiritual communities.

The fact something is uncomfortable, hard, or even hated, doesn't mean it's universally incorrect, or a net negative for the world. 
Doing what everyone else does because its easier and accepted can be aruged to be lazy and selfish as well.

If you are going to generalize you are going to get generalized replies. Hiding behind: You are just low consciousness, it's not going to work here.
You are reacting to yourself, sit back and ask yourself in contemplation why you've just generated 50 replies you hate. I do and sometimes I even learn from it, usually after hitting my head against a wall three times.

I could argue very seriously that burning up the planet for a steak is in conflict with existence as well, (for me it's ludicrous) and I do quite often but nobody listens, and I try not to take it personally. I don't think you are more or less selfish than I am because of your dietary habits, you just have different values, different understandings about reality, and an obviously different relationship with animals.

Edited July 13 by BlueOak

[zurew]

1 hour ago, integral said:

you can be vegan to minimize suffering for the whole while at the same time accepting reality and the human race and all of that = Harmony with identity and reality.

With this literally everyone here would agree with, but originally you didn't frame it this way thats why you got the pushback that you got.

Originally you were talking about that vegans are rejecting reality just because they don't eat meat, which is obviously a very stupid statement.

The analogy about crocodiles was unnecessary and irrelevant and even framing this whole thing through the lense of veganism was stupid as well.

Now you can pretend that the above claim was your only point that you were trying to make, while in reality you were forced to walk back all your other stupid claims that you failed to defend.

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, integral said:

i’m tired of having to explain this for the 100 time, Reread what I wrote from a high consciousness perspective and stop projecting bunch of low consciousness shit onto it. 😂

 

Lol, it's the "I am the good boy who identifies with his hypervigilance" persona, i see.

Personally i prefer playing a kind of "Slightly psychopath funny opportunist and curious" persona, i i would say i just see resonances who are logical or not 😉.

2 hours ago, integral said:

 

I’m not justifying any immoral act because selfishness needs to be acted on and all of this nonsense that you guys are inventing.

 

Who determines what is moral or not ? + everything venture is fundamentally egoist.

 

Edited July 13 by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, Sincerity said:

I'm all for integrating the killer energy. I think everyone needs to be able to kill - mainly on the mental plane. To let go of their past, to break off bad relationships, to release whatever is no longer resonating. Seriously - people fucking need to be able to kill.

Also physically in self defense or in defense of one's closest ones. If such defense is genuinely necessary, as the ultimate last resort.

But this energy must be paired with benevolence and wisdom. If you're disregarding your good heart in order to intentionally embrace selfishness - short-term that's a cool experiment I think, but in the long-term that's a road of misery and unforeseen consequences. That's building karma.

I'm not a vegan btw.

"The quirky polish mace windu" is still a persona with karma. 

Being an ascetic who seeks to escape, for me it is always a game in duality, paradoxically.

 

[Schizophonia]

18 hours ago, strika said:

The reason why they lose teeth is because they need to make the transition to breatharianism at some point, if a person continues eating fruit/raw vegan diet for a long time without switching to breatharianism their body will start to ruin itself and this is usually the point where people make a big mistake and go back to meat thinking raw vegan diet was bad all along even tho it completely cleaned them and prepared them for a breatharianism transition that they never made. Eating fruit (or any other diet) is just a phase a person should go through, if one tries to keep the phase permanent it will start to destroy them and ultimately kill them, a creature that eats dies. Btw a person doesn't have to make these transitions gradually, a person can go from eating meat to breatharianism too, it may just be a bit mentally harder that's all.

I'll just say maybe, I'm not in that rabbit hole at all.

[enchanted]

21 hours ago, integral said:

A human is a killer. That is the fundamental nature of a human that vegans cannot come to terms with.

A Vegan rejects what they are. They reject what they were born as. They reject the biology they were born with.

 

This is flawed logic. You are basically having a conservative ego backlash against the higher values of veganism. Are you against gay marriage too? We obviously evolved to be heterosexual. Since humans are innate "killers" you must also be against world peace because it goes against our nature. 

Hating vegans are also a trap that you are falling into. 

[numbersinarow]

I think it's just a failure to mimic Christian morality.

In a world with no objective morality such as ours, veganism is unjustifiable. When it comes to health, it forces you to take supplements and even then can lead to issues, and is known to cause more brain fog than a more meat focused diet.

Even if subjectively you felt guilt for eating meat, that would be no reason for veganism to be universally true and would therefore be an issue of you ridding yourself of the guilt.