Do characters in fictions we create have a kind of "conscious experience" ?

[ltp]

Do the fictions we create (daytime imagination, dreams, films, books, video games) with characters in them, give rise to real conscious experiences of these characters? Basically, if I imagine, or if I dream of a genocide, will it cause millions of conscious experiences of genocide to be experienced by "God" ?

If these conscious experiences exist, then ethically, is it immoral to imagine these things? Should we force ourselves to stop imagining them, try to stop dreaming of them, avoid consuming and producing works that depict such facts ? Are these conscientious experiences really analogous to those that we normally consider to exist, ours and those of people in the "real" world? Or, will the things the fiction is about really be experienced as conscious experiences of imagining/dreaming?

Sorry if this sounds like an absurd question but it's been bogging me for a while now. Thanks for your help !

[Evelyna]

It is not an absurd question at all. In many shamanic cultures and traditions it is said that everything is aware and responsive I think it is safe to assume that yes characters could have some kind of consciousness , this may be with very different rules to this reality, but still a consciousness. In basic explanation everything we can imagine or create exists. 

[An young being]

5 hours ago, ltp said:

Do the fictions we create (daytime imagination, dreams, films, books, video games) with characters in them, give rise to real conscious experiences of these characters? Basically, if I imagine, or if I dream of a genocide, will it cause millions of conscious experiences of genocide to be experienced by "God" ?

If these conscious experiences exist, then ethically, is it immoral to imagine these things? Should we force ourselves to stop imagining them, try to stop dreaming of them, avoid consuming and producing works that depict such facts ? Are these conscientious experiences really analogous to those that we normally consider to exist, ours and those of people in the "real" world? Or, will the things the fiction is about really be experienced as conscious experiences of imagining/dreaming?

Sorry if this sounds like an absurd question but it's been bogging me for a while now. Thanks for your help !

You aren't conscious enough to bring your imagination into existence, so don't worry about having ethical dilemmas on imagining.

For example, while you're imagining a genocide, you are just creating simple images of it, without the complete picture, your images don't have flesh, bones, people suffering because of those bones getting broken etc, you won't be able to imagine so much pain on your own. 

The universe has so many laws that keep your imagination going out of control. But what you still have to worry about is letting the content you consume influence your ego and hence your everyday activities and intentions. 

For example, consuming a content where a person feels immense pleasure in murdering someone, if you immerse and align with such imagination, your own ego will feel the pleasure and may get attached to it slowly. A better consumption will be feeling the emotions of compassion when watching a sad movie. 

So don't worry about having any ethical dilemmas in consuming content, and enjoy the experiences you have been blessed with!

[Sugarcoat]

A similar question could be, does everything exist ? This has been bogging me throughout my life. So it doesn’t mean the characters in your mind etc are conscious but rather what if everything exists? So every single possibility exists . So anything you can imagine plus infinitely more exists, every single possible pov and experience. That’s scary asf but what if

[An young being]

51 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

A similar question could be, does everything exist ? This has been bogging me throughout my life. So it doesn’t mean the characters in your mind etc are conscious but rather what if everything exists? So every single possibility exists . So anything you can imagine plus infinitely more exists, every single possible pov and experience. That’s scary asf but what if

If everything exists, everything is balanced as well, so don't be afraid 🔱

[Sugarcoat]

7 minutes ago, An young being said:

If everything exists, everything is balanced as well, so don't be afraid 🔱

I can’t help but think about all the possible horrible things but yea you are right 

[ltp]

Hi all, and thanks a lot for your responses.

@Evelyna what cultures do you have in mind ? Would they consider that, for example, the characters in their stories/myths were created by the person who created the story, and with that, some kind of consciousness for them two ?

@An young being what would you think about, say, a horror movie ? In this view, do the people who imagine the scenario, and then film it with actors, have actually given birth to actual beings with a limited form of consciousness, and thus with a limited ability to suffer the pains portrayed in the movie ? What would be your moral position on creating, and watching, such movies ? Because in some horror movies, what you describe - actual scenes of suffering with detail - is very much present.

@Sugarcoat would you say the characters in stories exist prior to the stories, and the stories are actually just an imitation of their experience, or does the story actually creates those characters, which didn't exist before ?

[Yimpa]

3 minutes ago, ltp said:

Hi all, and thanks a lot for your responses.

No problem. We Actualizers are here for you 24/7, 365 days a year.
Even when the servers go down 

[Sugarcoat]

11 minutes ago, ltp said:

would you say the characters in stories exist prior to the stories, and the stories are actually just an imitation of their experience, or does the story actually creates those characters, which didn't exist before ?

The prior. Meaning all possibilities exist. Which also means maybe there is some world in which what you’re saying is true . But not in this world I’d say 

[LastThursday]

There's less difference between a character in a novel or your imagination and your real friend X than you think. The common thread is that they're all constructions in your mind and imagination. Theory of Mind breathes life into your mental constructions. In fact some people do this sort of thing on purpose and create Tulpas which are "materialised thought forms".

Are any of these constructions conscious? Some say no, for example philosphical zombies. I say yes, because you yourself are conscious. Your consciousness is their consciousness. Although don't confuse it with solipsism (uh oh), consciousness doesn't belong to you.

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, LastThursday said:

Although don't confuse it with solipsism (uh oh), consciousness doesn't belong to you.

Don’t be starting wars now, u_Devil_u   

[LastThursday]

What? I didn't say nuffink. Move along, nothing to see here 😈

[An young being]

17 hours ago, ltp said:

what would you think about, say, a horror movie ? In this view, do the people who imagine the scenario, and then film it with actors, have actually given birth to actual beings with a limited form of consciousness, and thus with a limited ability to suffer the pains portrayed in the movie ? What would be your moral position on creating, and watching, such movies ? Because in some horror movies, what you describe - actual scenes of suffering with detail - is very much present.

17 hours ago, ltp said:

 

No, even if you sit and think for hundred years with great detail, you won't be able to match the intelligence with which the universe imagines the world, and hence you won't create the suffering simply by imagining. 

That doesn't mean your thoughts, especially with a strong intention or desire won't affect your world. They function within certain karmic rules which I have no idea about, and can make things happen within those rules. They can't create something new, they can only modify the existing universe, well within the physical laws that we observe. For eg, your thoughts can't create an entity that defies gravity.

And of course, if your intention is selfless and goodhearted, the universe will support you, otherwise you may be in for a good lesson at the end, despite your thoughts becoming reality.

[An young being]

Here's an example for a good thought and a bad thought for the example given: 

1. A director directs a horror movie with the intention to entertain the audience by giving them doses of fear and good creativity. It might be a good intention. 

2. A director directs a horror movie with zero creativity and full of violence, simply because it is cheap and easy and generates good amount of 🤑. 

Both these cases are just examples, and yes there are shades of grey and not white and black. Ignorance too plays a role, a director may very well know extreme violence will affect the mentality, but his desire to entertain may overcome his rationality.

[An young being]

And of course, there's the mother of all ignorance, that pleasure is good for everyone since it makes people look happy.

[Evelyna]

On 25/07/2024 at 7:21 PM, ltp said:

what cultures do you have in mind ? Would they consider that, for example, the characters in their stories/myths were created by the person who created the story, and with that, some kind of consciousness for them two ?

For example African cultures , shamanism accepts everything as aware and responsive. I practise Hawaiian ancient shamanism which teaches the same thing, hence my answer to your topic was , “it is not absurd” , I would accept that those characters in stories have a type of consciousness as I said before it would have different rules to our reality but if it’s been imagined then it exists in its own right and if it exists it is conscious although we may not understand how it works exactly.

Edited July 26, 2024 by Evelyna

[ltp]

@An young being  @Evelyna aren't your 2 views conflicting with each other ?

On the one hand, it seems to me (but correct me if I'm wrong) that on @An young being's view, imagination (creating a character in a work of fiction, or even maybe just involuntary daytime imagination ?) can't actually create conscious entities, while on @Evelyna's view, it can (though maybe not the same kind of consciousness that we possess).

I'm asking because it actually causes me much distress to think that creating works of fiction may actually cause the events and characters in that fiction to pop into existence ; at first sight it seems to me that this may have the moral implication that we should actually refrain from creating just any kind of fiction that we want, which would be quite depressing to me actually.

Thanks again for your help, this is quite emotionally loaded for me actually ^^

[An young being]

4 hours ago, ltp said:

@An young being  @Evelyna 

I'm asking because it actually causes me much distress to think that creating works of fiction may actually cause the events and characters in that fiction to pop into existence ; at first sight it seems to me that this may have the moral implication that we should actually refrain from creating just any kind of fiction that we want, which would be quite depressing to me actually.

Thanks again for your help, this is quite emotionally loaded for me actually ^^

Let me tell you a truth. Simply by smiling when you see a stranger's face, you can cause him/her a painful death. Will you stop smiling because it has a chance to happen? No!

What you should do instead is believe in your intuition and do what seems right to your heart. If your heart doesn't know, try to analyse it rationally as best as you can. Most discussions in places like forums are mostly beliefs, and things like creating a conscious entity which suffers simply because of your imagination has very less chances of happening both by intuition and by rational analysis or even by most beliefs. Only your intention and ignorance matters, not the results. If you had a pure selfless intention with your best efforts or the least ignorance which causes thousands to die unknowingly, you will not be affected by it. That's how the universe keeps maintaining the balance.

So don't worry about things you can't know for sure, and instead focus on the present. Remember, many spiritual cultures keep creativity at a pedestal for a reason. Just make sure or intend to create content that won't affect those who view it mentally, as far as you can.

[Keryo Koffa]

On 7/12/2024 at 2:34 PM, Evelyna said:

Shamanic cultures see everything as aware and responsive, characters may have a consciousness different from ours.

On 7/12/2024 at 7:20 PM, An young being said:

You're not conscious enough to manifest imagination, so don't worry about ethical dilemmas. You manipulate limited symbols but don't create full-detail realities. The universe has protective mechanisms. However, media can normalize and bind you to negative paradigms like desiring to see ever more violence in action movies and discomfort or sadness can make you more empathetic.

On 7/26/2024 at 1:49 PM, An young being said:

Even in a hundred years, you won't match universal intelligence Thoughts function within certain karmic rules.

On 7/26/2024 at 1:49 PM, An young being said:

Your thoughts can't create an entity that defies gravity. You'd learn a lesson if your thoughts did shape reality.

8 hours ago, ltp said:

Aren't your views contradictory? I'm worried about creating conscious suffering entities through art or perception

3 hours ago, An young being said:

Trust your heart and intuition. Analyze as best you can, not beliefs but intention and ignorance matter.

On 7/12/2024 at 7:34 PM, Sugarcoat said:

What if everything exists? Every single possibility. Anything you can imagine plus infinitely more. That’s scary

On 7/12/2024 at 8:26 PM, An young being said:

If everything exists, everything is balanced as well, so don't be afraid 🔱

On 7/12/2024 at 8:34 PM, Sugarcoat said:

I can’t help but think about all the possible horrible things but yea you are right 

On 7/25/2024 at 8:21 PM, ltp said:

Do story characters exist prior to stories, with the stories imitating their experience or vice versa?

On 7/25/2024 at 8:34 PM, Sugarcoat said:

Prior, meaning all possibilities exist. Which means there is a world in which it's true, but not this one

On 7/25/2024 at 10:21 PM, LastThursday said:

Everything and everyone breathes the same consciousness and everything is equally a construct

Phew, had to make a quick summary, to see through this post and conversations, now lemme add to it!

@ltp Art and Consciousness are quite the topic! Of course, ideas, people, and characters always potentially existed but we do materialize them in our experience through context and focus. How does that influence their level of reality, good question!

I think we all share the substrate out of which stories originate and there might be different planes that communicate with each other we also actively create and change all these stories and possibilities with our awareness, it's like there is a holistic space for everything. also, maybe both or either depending on the circumstance but somehow all possible interpretations simultaneously in their contexts related to their inter-conscious pathways too, think multiverse

Some Questions:

Are we in a feedback loop with whatever dimension we acquired symbols and experiences from? Is there more?

How does our automatic internal imagination create the perception of others and to what degree is it independent?

How do imagination, psyche, and actions correlate with the ability to change this earth we share and tune into?

Evil may or may not exist, but suffering does, is it chosen or produced through unconscious behavior?

Stories share sensations and pointers, we give them a reality but do they persist alone?

Some Insights on @Sugarcoat, @An young being, @ltp and perspectival inconsistencies:

We're navigating and remixing experiences into art on this plane. If anything exists/is possible, it always was.

Beliefs. Everyone dynamically balances their worldview and freedom through intuitive insight-evolving systems.

My take on @An young being's universal balance/intelligence and transcendence is:

There's a difference in planes, like the one of Daydreaming and the one that allows permanent change in the Consensus World. It'd take a paradigm shift and then detachment of all desires on all planes of the psyche, incl. body, emotion, mind, and all that is subconscious to transcend this experience and create whole realistic worlds by merging with infinite intelligence, and doing so would automatically also align oneself with compassion and equanimity, though these might be prerequisites to get there in the first place.

My semi-reconciliation through the idea of Semi-Solipsistic Self-Balance:

We become and simulate them unconsciously, the experience residing in our broader psyche as a type of "actor".

After all, what if story characters get bored of their story? lol. If we did, we'd move on, and that's exactly it!

But what if that part of our psyche wants to live on and shape its experience outside of ourselves, it diverges!

 

To put it more elegantly: Interactive metamorphic fields of self-balancing, hyperspatial psychic entities!

And that includes every intention, person, and character! And we're learning Harmony in this experience.

Everything is Consciousness, but it's self-regulating and you're equipped with reason, so don't sweat it!

Edited August 2, 2024 by Keryo Koffa

[integral]

I love this sci-fi concept, where every thought you have is conscious and self-aware independently like panpsychism. I’m sure a compelling story can be written from this.

Edited August 2, 2024 by integral