Ayahuasca / Pharmahuasca

[What Am I]

@PsychedelicEagle you seem like a very capable psychedelic user who's able to think clearly and avoid catastrophe from negligence. If you're looking for a fancy new ROA with tons of benefits, there's always this option:

 

[PsychedelicEagle]

 

54 minutes ago, What Am I said:

Are you able to get your hands on harmalas in their dry powdered form? It'd be a lot easier to be precise in your dosing.

Indeed, great idea and thanks again @What Am I.

Btw, how long do your Vaporhuasca trips last if you take the MAOIs orally?

45 minutes ago, What Am I said:

fancy new ROA with tons of benefits

Defo interesting, thanks for sharing. I might try it at some point, when the time for it arises. Have you been using SubQ for nn-DMT too? I would imagine that if someone gets a handle on oral ROA they'd have less incentives to go for SubQ. For 5-MeO-DMT that's a different story of course.

[What Am I]

5 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Btw, how long do your Vaporhuasca trips last if you take the MAOIs orally?

If you've taken enough MAOIs to perform inhibition, I can't imagine the differences wouldn't quickly become apparent after vaping DMT. It's noticeable in the sense that the trip comes on slightly slower, the peak lasts maybe 5-10 minutes longer, and the tail of the trip stretches way out upwards of 30+ minutes. Additionally, the whole character of the trip gets modified in a way that's difficult to describe. You'll see what I mean if you're able to nail down the dosing.

8 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Defo interesting, thanks for sharing. I might try it at some point, when the time for it arises. Have you been using SubQ for nn-DMT too? I would imagine that if someone gets a handle on oral ROA they'd have less incentives to go for SubQ. For 5-MeO-DMT that's a different story of course.

Right on, I'm around if you end up needing advice.

I have used the ROA for DMT, but only a few times. From what I've seen, it's kind of like a middle point between vaped DMT and pharmahuasca in terms of the chaos and intensity of the trip. Dosing is similar to pharma, with 20-30mg being a good amount. No harmalas required, but I bet there could be something to be gained by adding them anyway. It'd require more experimentation to know.

[PsychedelicEagle]

17 hours ago, What Am I said:

the trip comes on slightly slower, the peak lasts maybe 5-10 minutes longer, and the tail of the trip stretches way out upwards of 30+ minutes.

Indeed! I managed to improve the dose today. I weighed 1250mg of my B. Caapi extract (double than yesterday). Assuming it contains 30% Harmine, this correponds to 375mg Harmine, which is about the typical Ayahuasca dose, according to a research study I saw (see below, Harmine dose was 7x that of DMT). Then I took 35mg DMT dissolved into white vinegar about 16 minutes later.

I tested the shorter timespan between MAOI and DMT to see if my body could be processing the alkaloids too quickly. It seemed to work best, tho hard to tell if it was the MAOI dose that made the difference. The trip was emotional and slightly visual.

Towards the end of my trip I boosted it by vaporizing about 8mg DMT (hard to measure accurately such low doses), which lead me to some profound insights onto myself and the people in my life. The onset of the vaporized DMT was indeed slower and the character of the trip different, as you described @What Am I.

Next time I plan to try the same amount of the B. Caapi extract and boost the oral DMT dose to 70mg.

 

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Indeed! I managed to improve the dose today. I weighed 1250mg of my B. Caapi extract (double than yesterday). Assuming it contains 30% Harmine, this correponds to 375mg Harmine, which is about the typical Ayahuasca dose, according to a research study I saw (see below, Harmine dose was 7x that of DMT). Then I took 35mg DMT dissolved into white vinegar about 16 minutes later.

I tested the shorter timespan between MAOI and DMT to see if my body could be processing the alkaloids too quickly. It seemed to work best, tho hard to tell if it was the MAOI dose that made the difference. The trip was emotional and slightly visual.

Towards the end of my trip I boosted it by vaporizing about 8mg DMT (hard to measure accurately such low doses), which lead me to some profound insights onto myself and the people in my life. The onset of the vaporized DMT was indeed slower and the character of the trip different, as you described @What Am I.

Next time I plan to try the same amount of the B. Caapi extract and boost the oral DMT dose to 70mg.

Very nice! Glad to hear you're getting closer to the ideal pharma experience.

I'm going to guess that the dose labeling of your B. Caapi extract may not be entirely accurate, because 375mg of harmine alone has a very good chance of making you profoundly nauseous, with the addition of harmaline making extreme nausea almost a certainty. Plus, even 100mg of oral harmine all by itself is enough to inhibit MAO a noticeable amount. So I think the extract must not be providing the expected amounts of harmalas per dose.

I've always had great success using this study to get an appropriate understanding of the alkaloid amounts in a typical cup of ayahuasca served by a few of the well-known facilitators. You can see in Table 1 how the main alkaloids are listed in mg/ml format. A typical cup of ayahuasca is ~100ml, so you can multiply each result in the table by 100 to decipher what would be considered an effective dose for each.

There's some extreme outliers which can be discarded, such as those showing a DMT dose of over 1 gram. There must have been an error in the analytical equipment or something. But when reviewing the relevant measurements which do appear to be accurate, I interpret the amounts per cup to be about:

DMT: 30-60mg
THH: 100-200mg
Harmaline: 10mg
Harmine: 100-200mg

Using these numbers as a guide, I've always had success in producing unbelievably amazing pharmahuasca trips.

Also worth mentioning is that I took the DMT and harmalas at the same time, and even in the same drink.

Edited October 20 by What Am I

[PsychedelicEagle]

3 hours ago, What Am I said:

Very nice! Glad to hear you're getting closer to the ideal pharma experience.

Thanks to great advice I've gotten in here

3 hours ago, What Am I said:

the dose labeling of your B. Caapi extract may not be entirely accurate

To be clear, the guy who sold me told me that 15 drops would contain about 150 milligrams of each of the alkaloids. I should have asked about more details. What I've noticed today is that the weight of drop can be inconsistent. 

My calculation on the 375mg of harmine was to calculate a safe upper bound, since I was going to double the dose. My thought was: "ok, even if it contains 30% harmine by weight I'm still not way beyond uncharted territory". But it should be less, as you mentioned.

3 hours ago, What Am I said:

A typical cup of ayahuasca is ~100ml, so you can multiply each result in the table by 100 to decipher what would be considered an effective dose for each.

 

Very cool study indeed. Considering that in ceremonies Ayahuasca is usually administered twice (sometimes even a third shot is offered), and in my experiences the second shot is usually smaller than the first, wouldn't it make sense to multiply the numbers by a bit more than 100 instead? Or in these 100ml are you already including the two shots?

3 hours ago, What Am I said:

Also worth mentioning is that I took the DMT and harmalas at the same time, and even in the same drink.

I was thinking of experimenting with this, indeed, thanks for mentioning. I have the impression that having at least some MAOIs at the same DMT drink may reduce the quantity of DMT broken in the stomach, despite people generally suggesting to take first the MAOIs and then DMT.

I also wonder if splitting the dose in two could contribute to higher absorption of the second hit. Considering that Ayahuasca and Chakruna are traditionally brewed together (my guess), there is no way to, e.g., tweak the concentrations of MAOIs/DMT before first and second shots. So over time shamans realized that splitting it into two hits was the way to go.

[What Am I]

49 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

To be clear, the guy who sold me told me that 15 drops would contain about 150 milligrams of each of the alkaloids. I should have asked about more details. What I've noticed today is that the weight of drop can be inconsistent. 

My calculation on the 375mg of harmine was to calculate a safe upper bound, since I was going to double the dose. My thought was: "ok, even if it contains 30% harmine by weight I'm still not way beyond uncharted territory". But it should be less, as you mentioned.

Yeah, I just simply can't imagine how the dosing he suggested could be accurate. If you were on 375mg of harmine, harmaline, and THH, that alone would be heavily intoxicating. Especially due to the harmaline, which is nearly double the strength of harmine by weight.

You can definitely experiment with increasing the drops until you find the correct amount, but if it were me, I'd be a lot more comfortable acquiring the purified harmala powders. That way you can dose with certainty. You could leave out harmaline entirely and just get some harmine and THH. Either one of these stores is legit.

https://www.harmalas.com/collections/all
https://bountybotanicals.com/harmalas-syrian-rue-extracts/

49 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Very cool study indeed. Considering that in ceremonies Ayahuasca is usually administered twice (sometimes even a third shot is offered), and in my experiences the second shot is usually smaller than the first, wouldn't it make sense to multiply the numbers by a bit more than 100 instead? Or in these 100ml are you already including the two shots?

That's a good point. These ceremonies often do involve attendees using a couple shots. The amounts I personally have the most experience with are 30mg DMT, 150mg harmine, and 100mg THH, all taken at once for a single experience without re-dosing. For me, that produces a very strong trip. But you're correct that the equivalent double-shot of ayahuasca would be roughly twice the material that I use, or a bit less than double assuming the second cup is less filled. I was counting 100ml as a single, which I believe is accurate. If I were ever to attend a ceremony, it's likely I wouldn't be brave enough to go up for that second dose lol.

49 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

I was thinking of experimenting with this, indeed, thanks for mentioning. I have the impression that having at least some MAOIs at the same DMT drink may reduce the quantity of DMT broken in the stomach, despite people generally suggesting to take first the MAOIs and then DMT.

I also wonder if splitting the dose in two could contribute to higher absorption of the second hit. Considering that Ayahuasca and Chakruna are traditionally brewed together (my guess), there is no way to, e.g., tweak the concentrations of MAOIs/DMT before first and second shots. So over time shamans realized that splitting it into two hits was the way to go.

Yeah, you're correct that ayahuasca brewers are limited in their options for re-dosing due to how the brew is made (all ingredients in one pot). It may or may not be optimal to have some harmalas in your system before adding the DMT, but I never actually experimented to find out since I had already stumbled on an effective method. Additionally, if I ever were to re-dose, I'd probably do it using the desired amount of extra DMT and much less, if any, harmalas. The MAOI effects of the initial dose will last for a good number of hours, so there wouldn't be a need for much more to activate the second dose of DMT.

Edited October 20 by What Am I

[PsychedelicEagle]

16 hours ago, What Am I said:

I'd be a lot more comfortable acquiring the purified harmala powders.

Thanks for the tip and references! It makes a lot of sense indeed. Since I live in Switzerland, I am not sure the isolated powders are legal here, I'll double check. But what I can easily do is buy some Syrian Rue seeds for boiling. A bit more cumbersome, have you had experience with this?

16 hours ago, What Am I said:

If I were ever to attend a ceremony, it's likely I wouldn't be brave enough to go up for that second dose lol.

Haha I've been to several ceremonies and I always go for the second shot. That said, it's hard to tell how much the facilitators there are putting. Usually here in Europe they acquire or store some form of paste, which is a reduced/concentrated form of the original brew. Then they dilute that into water to give to participants in the ceremony. The paste is stored on plastic containers for God knows how long so one can easily assume part of the active ingredients are degraded. That is another reason why I don't feel comfortable with these ceremonies anymore, I just feel the quality of the substance is bad.

16 hours ago, What Am I said:

Additionally, if I ever were to re-dose, I'd probably do it using the desired amount of extra DMT and much less, if any, harmalas.

Makes sense. I think I just have had bad luck with this acquisition of the extract. I'll report back when I get to try Pharmahuasca with a different type/batch of MAOIs.

Edited October 21 by PsychedelicEagle

[What Am I]

3 hours ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Thanks for the tip and references! It makes a lot of sense indeed. Since I live in Switzerland, I am not sure the isolated powders are legal here, I'll double check. But what I can easily do is buy some Syrian Rue seeds for boiling. A bit more cumbersome, have you had experience with this?

Ah gotcha. I'm not sure about the legality and availability of harmalas in Switzerland. Syrian Rue seeds would be an option, but I hear a tea of it can be quite nauseating. I think it's due to Syrian Rue being 50/50 harmine/harmaline, and harmaline is very heavy and sedating. I don't have any personal experience with Syrian Rue, though it is possible to acquire the seeds and then perform a kitchen-chemisrty extraction to end up with harmine and harmaline, and then use another chemistry method to reduce the harmaline into THH. The DMT-Nexus forum should have all the info needed to perform the process.

3 hours ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Haha I've been to several ceremonies and I always go for the second shot. That said, it's hard to tell how much the facilitators there are putting. Usually here in Europe they acquire or store some form of paste, which is a reduced/concentrated form of the original brew. Then they dilute that into water to give to participants in the ceremony. The paste is stored on plastic containers for God knows how long so one can easily assume part of the active ingredients are degraded. That is another reason why I don't feel comfortable with these ceremonies anymore, I just feel the quality of the substance is bad.

Interesting, I've never heard of that method. I'd probably be leery of it as well.

3 hours ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Makes sense. I think I just have had bad luck with this acquisition of the extract. I'll report back when I get to try Pharmahuasca with a different type/batch of MAOIs.

Sounds good, good luck.