Ayahuasca / Pharmahuasca

[shree]

13 minutes ago, MaDoubt said:

Because the harmalas from Yage (or rue)  are psychedelic themselves at a higher dosage, it is not just the MAOI effect (which I guess is all you get from 30mg sublingually). In Ayahuasca, it is the most important spirit of the drink, even more so than the DMT containing plants.

So that spirit or motherly vibe that people who did Ayahuasca talking about is due to harmalas? 

Edited July 10 by shree

[What Am I]

10 minutes ago, MaDoubt said:

Because the harmalas from Yage (or rue)  are psychedelic themselves at a higher dosage, it is not just the MAOI effect (which I guess is all you get from 30mg sublingually). In Ayahuasca, it is the most important spirit of the drink, even more so than the DMT containing plants.

Pretty good theory. It could be true that more of the harmala psychedelic effects leak through when using it orally.

I once took a high dose of caapi harmalas by itself, which is basically a mix of harmine and THH. I experienced powerful effects that are difficult to describe. There were bizarre visuals and everything. It was interesting, but I'd personally never do it again without the accompanying DMT.

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@What Am I I think it's like LSD derivatives. It's a pro drug. So in the end you get high on DMT. People report it's the same.

Makes sense, I've heard similar.

[What Am I]

29 minutes ago, shree said:

So that spirit or motherly vibe that people who did Ayahuasca talking about is due to harmalas? 

This is what's been long believed in the Ayahuasca traditions, and I guess they'd be in a position to know above most others. There's undoubtedly a significant change in a DMT trip when harmala alkaloids are introduced.

Edited July 10 by What Am I

[MaDoubt]

12 hours ago, shree said:

So that spirit or motherly vibe that people who did Ayahuasca talking about is due to harmalas? 

Yes, I guess so, because DMT (any form) does not have any motherly vibe by itself. Of course it is the combination of both that does the magic but for sure the Harmalas are not there just for the MAOI effect. Don't think the vine is called "Ayahuasca" for nothing, it is a major part of the brew, the most important one.  And pharmahuasca done with synthetic MAOI's (Moclobemide - and yes, you can do that) is different, feels a bit synthetic, like more of the DMT and less of the love.

Ma

Edited July 11 by MaDoubt

[PsychedelicEagle]

On 7/10/2024 at 5:41 PM, What Am I said:

Yes, I have a good amount of experience with vaporhuasca. This is what I used for a while before I tried out pharmahuasca.

There's a couple ways to go about it. You could take the harmalas via sublingual administration or orally about 20-30 minutes before vaping DMT. Sublingual will only require about 20-30mg of harmine since the bioavailability is much higher. Oral will require around the dose that you'd need for pharmahuasca, so about 100mg of harmine. For reasons that aren't clear, taking the harmalas orally for vaporhuasca creates a noticeably more powerful, more immersing, and longer trip. It was my preferred method despite the larger amount of material needed.

At least for myself, the nausea was extremely minimal and essentially non-existent. Like I mentioned above, it's one of the huge benefits of pharma over aya.

@What Am I, thanks again for sharing your experience. Some questions:

I have some B. Caapi extract (which should contain about ~10mg of each of the most common β-carbolines per drop, namely Harmine, Harmaline, and THH), which I want to use to extend and eventually "smooth out" (by requiring less DMT) my freebase DMT trips.

In this context, I am not particularly interested in replicating an Ayahuasca experience, but more in exploring the DMT realm in extended lengths of time. So, I assume (based on the messages just above this one) that using the sublingual ROA with <= 30mg of harmalas would maintain the DMTness of the trip.

A few questions to you (or whoever knows the answer):

1. If I want to do Vaporhuasca, how much DMT should I use? I'm afraid the B. Caapi extract will greatly potentialize the vaporized DMT experience and therefore I should be careful. I've had a short breakthrough on what I would consider 18mg of vaporized n,n-DMT, but the experience was so fast I could not property integrate it.
2. Also, I've seen people recommending to wait 1 hour after taking the MAOIs. Any experience on how one could play with the "wait time"?
3. Lastly, what made you switch from Vaporhuasca to Pharmahuasca, and what are the main subjective differences in the experience for you?

Thx 🙏

Edited October 1 by PsychedelicEagle

[Schizophonia]

On 10/07/2024 at 8:47 AM, shree said:

 

I can get my hands on Syrian Rue and extract what I need out of it.

I have plenty of syrian rue seeds but It makes me nauseous ; Apparently it's toxic too.

Banisteriopsis caapi is supposed to be better. 

[Buck Edwards]

8 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

I have plenty of syrian rue seeds but It makes me nauseous ; Apparently it's toxic too.

Banisteriopsis caapi is supposed to be better. 

I request you to make a thread on your realizations from all of your psychedelic trips valentin. 

[Schizophonia]

Just now, Buck Edwards said:

I request you to make a thread on your realizations from all of your psychedelic trips valentin. 

Ahah.

Maybe i will in the futur, but not only for psychedelics. 

[What Am I]

7 hours ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

@What Am I, thanks again for sharing your experience. Some questions:

I have some B. Caapi extract (which should contain about ~10mg of each of the most common β-carbolines per drop, namely Harmine, Harmaline, and THH), which I want to use to extend and eventually "smooth out" (by requiring less DMT) my freebase DMT trips.

In this context, I am not particularly interested in replicating an Ayahuasca experience, but more in exploring the DMT realm in extended lengths of time. So, I assume (based on the messages just above this one) that using the sublingual ROA with <= 30mg of harmalas would maintain the DMTness of the trip.

A few questions to you (or whoever knows the answer):

1. If I want to do Vaporhuasca, how much DMT should I use? I'm afraid the B. Caapi extract will greatly potentialize the vaporized DMT experience and therefore I should be careful. I've had a short breakthrough on what I would consider 18mg of vaporized n,n-DMT, but the experience was so fast I could not property integrate it.
2. Also, I've seen people recommending to wait 1 hour after taking the MAOIs. Any experience on how one could play with the "wait time"?
3. Lastly, what made you switch from Vaporhuasca to Pharmahuasca, and what are the main subjective differences in the experience for you?

Thx 🙏

Happy to help.

So yeah, if you're getting ~30mg of total alkaloids per drop in your extract, the most ideal sublingual dose would be a single drop. Two drops would also be within reason, but it'd be pushing it a bit. In my experience, you don't need to wait more than 20-30 minutes before it'll take full effect. At that point, you're correct that it'd be wise to ease back on the DMT dose, due to potentiation. Starting with 10mg of vaped DMT should probably be safe in terms of not accidentally getting thrown into the deep end. You can adjust the dose accordingly from there.

Regarding pharmahuasca, there just seems to be something magical about orally ingesting both the harmalas and DMT. It could be the fact that the slower-absorbing ROA allows for more clarity to the chaotic DMT trip, or it could also be that the metabolism differs in some way. I'm not really sure why, but the experience of using them orally always seemed to produce highly preferable trips filled with extreme euphoria and insight.

Let me know if you have any other questions or need more detail.

[LifeEnjoyer]

15 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Ahah.

Maybe i will in the futur, but not only for psychedelics. 

Yesss I’m trying to hop on the Schizophonia stack w/ you!

/s

Edited October 2 by LifeEnjoyer

[LoseYourvelf]

1 minute ago, LifeEnjoyer said:

Yesss I’m trying to hop on the Schizophonia stack w/ you!

Let's see a break down of that

[PsychedelicEagle]

6 hours ago, What Am I said:

Regarding pharmahuasca, there just seems to be something magical about orally ingesting both the harmalas and DMT. It could be the fact that the slower-absorbing ROA allows for more clarity to the chaotic DMT trip, or it could also be that the metabolism differs in some way. I'm not really sure why, but the experience of using them orally always seemed to produce highly preferable trips filled with extreme euphoria and insight.

Quite interesting. Thanks a lot. I will experiment with the different ROAs and report back.

Btw, I have freebase DMT. I think I should convert it to DMT acetate with acetic acid before oral ingestion, for a more reliable absorption, correct? Otherwise, has anyone tried orally ingesting the freebase version directly? And, when converting, how long does it take to convert it to the salt form with white vinegar?

PS: White vinegar is so easily available that it seems like a no-brainer to just use it for oral administration...

Edited October 1 by PsychedelicEagle

[What Am I]

8 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Quite interesting. Thanks a lot. I will experiment with the different ROAs and report back.

No problem, sounds good.

8 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Btw, I have freebase DMT. I think I should convert it to DMT acetate with acetic acid before oral ingestion, for a more reliable absorption, correct? Otherwise, has anyone tried orally ingesting the freebase version directly? And, when converting, how long does it take to convert it to the salt form with white vinegar?

PS: White vinegar is so easily available that it seems like a no-brainer to just use it for oral administration...

There's a few options when it comes to converting DMT freebase for oral ingestion. The simplest is to just swallow it as-is and let the conversion to DMT HCl occur in your stomach, though that can be pretty uncomfortable and I don't recommended it. I like to make DMT citrate from either dissolving the freebase in a shot glass of orange juice, or dissolving it in a shot glass of water along with citric acid. The ratio of DMT to citric acid should be roughly 1:0.35. The conversion will occur almost instantaneously as the ingredients fully dissolve in the liquid.

You could also make DMT acetate using vinegar as you mentioned, but I don't have any experience with that one. It should be similar to the DMT citrate method I described above, but I would imagine vinegar might be more harsh to drink. Especially if it's not heavily diluted.

[PsychedelicEagle]

20 hours ago, What Am I said:

I like to make DMT citrate from either dissolving the freebase in a shot glass of orange juice

What a great idea, thanks for the suggestion!

20 hours ago, What Am I said:

water along with citric acid. The ratio of DMT to citric acid should be roughly 1:0.35

Now I'm curious as to whether this could be used to convert 5-MeO-DMT freebase to 5-MeO-DMT citrate, for plugging. Has someone tried it?

@What Am I, why the ratio of 1:0.35? DMT has a molar mass of 188 g/mol, and citric acid of 192 g/mol. So I would expect that a 1:1 net weight ratio would be optimal. Am I committing some chemical sin here?

[What Am I]

38 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Now I'm curious as to whether this could be used to convert 5-MeO-DMT freebase to 5-MeO-DMT citrate, for plugging. Has someone tried it?

Yep, that should definitely work as a method of making it a more easily absorbable salt form.

40 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

@What Am I, why the ratio of 1:0.35? DMT has a molar mass of 188 g/mol, and citric acid of 192 g/mol. So I would expect that a 1:1 net weight ratio would be optimal. Am I committing some chemical sin here?

I'm very far from being skilled in chemistry, but it's my understanding that citric acid is tribasic, meaning it can react in a 1:3 ratio with tryptramines. So that would account for the 1:0.35 ratio when mixing with DMT freebase in a liquid. For 5-MeO-DMT freebase, I believe it'd be a 1:0.3 ratio.

You may want to double check with an AI or something though. My chemistry skills are weak, and this is just info I've accumulated from places like DMT-Nexus.

[PsychedelicEagle]

@What Am I understood. I checked and citric acid is tribasic indeed. Thanks for the deep knowledge

[What Am I]

17 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

@What Am I understood. I checked and citric acid is tribasic indeed. Thanks for the deep knowledge

[PsychedelicEagle]

Reporting back, I tried Pharmahuasca orally today without success. I suspect the B. Caapi TPA is not as concentrated as I expected, or the DMT dose I used not enough (30mg mixed on orange juice) for my personal bioavailability. I will try again soon and report back, next time with more TPA drops (orally) and 50mg DMT (orally).

I can tell it must be the MAOIs because I also tried vaporhuasca (few drops sublingually, then 15mg DMT vaporized), and the trip was almost the same in length as with pure DMT. The peak was quite intense, but my goal moving forward is to smooth it out via alternative ROAs (e.g., oral).

Have people tried plugging n,n-DMT (after administration of MAOIs)?

Edited October 19 by PsychedelicEagle

[What Am I]

10 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Reporting back, I tried Pharmahuasca orally today without success. I suspect the B. Caapi TPA is not as concentrated as I expected, or the DMT dose I used not enough (30mg mixed on orange juice) for my personal bioavailability. I will try again soon and report back, next time with more TPA drops (orally) and 50mg DMT (orally).

I can tell it must be the MAOIs because I also tried vaporhuasca (few drops sublingually, then 15mg DMT vaporized), and the trip was almost the same in length as with pure DMT. The peak was quite intense, but my goal moving forward is to smooth it out via alternative ROAs (e.g., oral).

Have people tried plugging n,n-DMT (after administration of MAOIs)?

Are you able to get your hands on harmalas in their dry powdered form? It'd be a lot easier to be precise in your dosing.

That 30mg oral DMT dose is probably about right, but a lot depends on your individual bioavailability for oral DMT. Some people require much more than 30mg (sometimes closer to 90-100mg), but then others such as myself only need 25-35mg for a very profound trip. You'll want to ensure you've nailed down the variable of the harmala dosing, and then put your attention on starting low and finding your correct oral DMT dose.

I'm not sure about plugged DMT. I could swear I've seen different people reporting that it both works and doesn't work.