Question for Advanced Meditators: Cessation

[Davino]

I'm very interested to know about your first hand experience with Cessation.

As far as I know, it's a reboot in Consciousness and the Olympic gold medal of meditation. I've heard many things here and there but I never had the opportunity to have someone explain to me how it was and how they did it.

Meditators report permanent shifts on baseline consciousness and radical physiological rewirings after such breakthrough experiences. I'm also particularly interested on that.

 

Thanks in advance for sharing your wisdom with me, I honestly appreciate it.

[What Am I]

I'm certainly not qualified yet to give a good report based on personal experience, but I remember Shinzen Young giving a good 'no BS' description of cessation, along with a methodology on how to get there.

[Davino]

@What Am I Could you provide the resource?

 

I'm very open to external sources regarding cessation. However, I would be concerned if nobody had ever experienced a cessation in the forum.

[What Am I]

15 minutes ago, Davino said:

@What Am I Could you provide the resource?

 

I'm very open to external sources regarding cessation. However, I would be concerned if nobody had ever experienced a cessation in the forum.

I agree, a dialogue with a practitioner who's actually reached that point would be awesome. That physiological rewiring aspect you mentioned, which seems to come about when a certain milestone in progress is reached, is of large interest to myself as well. Very interesting indeed.

Here's a few videos where Shinzen Young goes into it:

 

Edited July 6 by What Am I

[CoolDreamThanks]

Experienced cessation during my first psychadelic trip. It does feel like a deep reset.  
 

Although the mind struggled to interpret the experience accurately at first and got into a dark knight of the soul.  
 

I’ll try to reach it or a simular state naturally now, it simply requires a prolonged exposure to meditation. 

[mrPixel]

This is a good resource: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/

[Davino]

@CoolDreamThanks How was the experience? Would you be so kind of describing it to me moment to moment?

How did you know: Oh yes, this is clearly a cessation.

[Water by the River]

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/let-s-talk-nirodha-samapatti-insights-into-valance-and-the-supposed-ontic-primacy-of-consciousness

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/throwing-my-hat-in-the-jhana-ring

and some more stuff from Roger Thisdell:

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind

https://www.rogerthisdell.com/post/maintaining-awareness-during-deep-sleep-how-to

and: Cessation is a large focus of Theravada/Early Buddhism, helping on the path to Enligthenment. But it is not (yet) Full Enlightenment, see for example modern voices of Theravada like Ingram (Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha)/Frank Yang/Thisdell.They state the same.

In Mahayana Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana, this dissolution/cessation experience is considered valueable, but not more. Not the final goal. Experiencing Absolute Reality/Infinite Impersonal Being WHILE visual appearances and the mindstream arises as Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality is considered the Final Enlightenment. Because Ultimate Reality has to be constant, always right here. If its not accessible, clouds of separation are still arising which are not seen through.

Cessation= Absolute Reality with no arising/appearance/anything at all, hence timeless, but also not self-consciousness (since that is an arising too). Helps seeing the illusion/separation-layers arising on the "reboot" while getting out of the cessation/Pure Nothingness, but does not necessarily destroy all the clouds causing duality. Normally it doesn't do that, that is why it takes lots of cessations on the Theravada path. 

No cessations are necessary for Enlightenment, it can also happen without them. In Mahamudra, instead of the Dissolution experience of cessation, the so-called "Non-dissolution" experience, or the insight the Infinite Mind/Being is timeless/eternal and boundless (but not yet fully impersonal) is considered of equal or even higher importance. Since that paves the way for the constant realization of Infinite Impersonal Being/Reality while the visual field arises, or Full Enlightenment. 

It is a difficult topic, needing a lot of reference meditation-experiences in order to start to intuit the differences. Maybe this is helpful for some. 

[What Am I]

1 minute ago, Water by the River said:

Cessation is a large focus of Theravada/Early Buddhism

Interesting, would this indicate cessation is synonymous with nirvikalpa samadhi and nirvana?

[Davino]

@What Am I Thanks for sharing, that's useful.

I'm kinda getting very Awake in my day to day, moment to moment, breath to breath, blink to blink experience. All sensation in Consciousness

I feel like meditation is a right move for me now. I feel like meditation is happening by itself and I wanna nurture that inner process in the same way I did when Kundalini started playing with me. That's where I'm at and feel more united with the meditation vibe honestly

[What Am I]

1 minute ago, Davino said:

@What Am I Thanks for sharing, that's useful.

I'm kinda getting very Awake in my day to day, moment to moment, breath to breath, blink to blink experience. All sensation in Consciousness

I feel like meditation is a right move for me now. I feel like meditation is happening by itself and I wanna nurture that inner process in the same way I did when Kundalini started playing with me. That's where I'm at and feel more united with the meditation vibe honestly

Right on, I'm in strong agreement. I think sober meditation that is literally continuous and non-stop is the only way to break through to significant change. Psychedelics are like booster fuel and they have their prominent place, but authentic skills in conscious awareness are a prerequisite.

[Water by the River]

20 hours ago, What Am I said:

Interesting, would this indicate cessation is synonymous with nirvikalpa samadhi and nirvana?

Mostly. There are different versions of what Wilber calls Causal States.

Cessation/Nirodha: Totally appearanceless "film-break" like cessation. Timeless/always here/Nothingness nature emphasized. Time needs appearance/objects/"movement"/change, no appearance/objects is timeless/always here. These states also clearly show that if nothing arises there is no self-consciousness. ( https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=pistol&author=Water by the River , thx Benthino for the water pistol). Pure Infinite Awareness/Being with the potential of sentience, but not self-consciousness. That comes later. Which is pretty much a shocker, since it shows that any form of self-consciousness ego/separate-self is a) arising/appearing b) temporary c) True YOU is always "there", existence itself. Even if nothing arises/appears. That empties out the remnants of the separate-self/ego as appearing/constructed and removes the remaining separate-self-identity pretty effectively when coming out of cessation. Nirodha is the big/longer brother of cessation.

Causal states with awareness (Infinite (timeless) Darkness suffused with light): Then there are causal states that are infinite/timeless, but self-aware. For example what Tibetan called the Clear Light state (Tummo, Bardo, Near Death). For example something a Neurologist (who had an NDE) for example described as "Infinite Darkness suffused with light". These states can also be experienced passing from dreaming to causal states to dreaming to waking up. One can have these states also with psychedelics, see Chris Bache Diamonds from Heaven.

Aware Deep Sleep: Then there is Deep Sleep as not loosing awareness (and hence timeless, no duration experienced) as described by Thisdell, above.

Causal States eyes open.

• And then you have totally empty impersonal states with no separate self arising WHILE the visual field appears. These are also linked by some to Nirvikalpa since there is no separate-ego-anything left, its the totally impersonal Totality/Reality arising by Itself. That is why Ken Wilber called the total empty/flat-lining state (EEG) some kind of Nirvikalpa "eyes-open". These are the true nondual IMPERSONAL states of Enlightenment. Only when having passed these causal states is it truly nondual impersonal Enlightenment/Infinite Impersonal Being. Before that, it is a Unity with the Infinite Nondual Field, and the character/ego hijacking that experience and interpreting it. Very common with certain substances, and easily confused with the final outcome of the total transcendence of the ego/separate-self purified by the experience of these totally empty states (hey, "I" wasn't there, what am I really? For sure not that temporarily appearing character-gig, because that wasn't there. And what I really am has to be the case always, even if there is no self-consciousness or consciousness OF anything at all, aka cessation or deep unaware sleep. That paves the way to true impersonal Enlightenment, realizing ones identity truly is this Infinite Nothingness which can never be any arising/appearance at all. The Infinite Absolute Being/Reality beyond any expierence/arising, timeless and eternal).
• And the Awareness of that Infinite Reality/Being can also be kept alive if the character reappears, the EEG shows something again. But then, this character/personality has a similiar status as for example your car: It appears in your Infinite Being/visual field, you look "out from it" while driving, but most definitely you are not (only) your car, but the whole appearing show/Infinite Being/Infinite Existing, the screen and the appearing show.
• Wilber Nirvikalpa eyes open/eyes closed:
• But the term Nirvikalpa has been used for millenia, so you can for sure find cases where its used for cessation/Nirodha and eyes open causal impersonal states, deep sleep, and anything in between. What is more important is what these causal states really can do: Kill the ego/separate-self-arising-illusions for good, because they show that these are temporary arising illusion-clouds, nothing more. Not by having these a few times, aber after experiencing them often and coming out of them and seeing the ego reassemble itself in real-time often enough can even get the hardest ego-illusions to wonder about their "reality". See below.
• When training via concentration meditation, it is easier to reach Cessation than reaching True Nondual Enlightenment while the visual field still appears. Because the mechanism of the ego-cloud-separation-arisings is not yet fully transcended. The mere appearance character, the Infinite impersonal field, the eternal/timeless background-nature of True Being is not yet reached while the visual field is there/daily life. That comes later. Later developed forms of Buddhism (Zen, Mahayana, Tibetan Buddhism, aka Mahamudra/Dzogchen) directly aim for the Nondual Realization. They know cessation states and achieve them, but don't value these as ultimate goal. Which makes sense, because if one can enter Nirvana/Nirvikalpha on command, its nice then, and later on the still well and alive ego and its cycles of contraction/suffering kill all the oh so nice Nirvana again. But shutting the whole enchilada including the ego down in causal states is a very good tool. Not necessary, but very useful. These statements are in line with the statements and experiences of modern Theravada-teachers and realizers like Ingram, Yang, Burbea, Taft, Thisdell and so on. And that is why I prefer Mahamudra/Dzogchen (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown). More on that below in the footnote 1.

The relations of these states get clear once the timless Absolute Reality/Being is intuited as always here. Deep Sleep is so to say is always right here. Since what you really are is always right here, as it is in deep sleep. Infinite eternal Consciousness/Being which is totally empty and impersonal if no separate-self illusion arises. The tree watching itself, fully aware of its temporaray/passing/illusory nature. And that which is always the case, eternally so, True Being, fully understands itself then. Because there exists nothing else that could understand itself besides THIS of which nothing can be said, only pointed towards.

So what is it that reads these words right here, right now? What is IT/You truly?

 

Starting out to write a short answer answer, ending up with a Filibustero. Oh well, maybe its helpful for some.

Selling Causal States as the final coup de grace for the separate self-character-gig/ego by

The River 

 

Ok, it had to be coming: WtbtR now with footnotes. Guess not for the faint of hearted. 

Footnote 1: The original "Buddhas" Enlightenment-doctrine was Cessation/Causal-based, not Full Nondual (impersonal) Enlightenment in daily life.

• The original Buddhas Enlightenment was Cessation/Causal-based (Nirvana-based, "Nirvana separate from Samsara"). Which is still a conditioned state, bringing a lot of liberation from grasping, but not fully and in daily life. Separate-Self/Ego not fully transcended/dead in daily life. The breakthrough to True (impersonal) Nondual Realization in official doctrine came later with Nagarjuna and Madhymaka/Middle Path: True Nondual impersonal Enlightenment which could be sustained in daily life/with visual field. And while Madhyamaka tended to not say anything at all about the Absolute (neti neti, no concepts can be applied for the Absolute, which technically is correct), later forms of Buddhisms like Yogachara said that (in truly enlightened impersonal nondual states) Infinite Consciousness/Infinite Being IS  an expression of the true state of things, and everything appearing is mere appearance (or "imagined"). See for example "Consciousness only school", for example Huang Po's  Universal Mind, or the (very humble) Supreme Source "I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe". God-Realization (TM) approved.  
• Forms of Buddhism stemming from the original buddhist teachings (causal teachings, sometimes called Hinayana school, which doesn't exist anymore), like for example Theravada/Thai Buddhism Forest Tradition (and Ingram/Yang/Burbea/Taft) mainly trace themselves from these forms (although all are adding some form of Dzogchen and similiar stuff), don't stem from the the Mahayana Revolution of Middle Way/Madhyamaka/Nagarjuna), and YET end up at Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation. And for sure in the original Buddhism some realized Nondual Enlightenment and not only cessation, but that didn't find its way into the official doctrine until much later.
  • And that (besides that the original Buddha probably didn't exist because its the same story Jainism tells about its founder) makes me smile when there "Buddhism"-trashing. Its like trashing "religion". Which kind of religion? Polytheism? Ancestor-cult? Monotheism? Polytheism? Who cares, lets trash the rodents...

So, now WbtR made it: Neither "Buddhist" like him anymore, nor the no-rodent crowd. Guess its "Viel Feind, viel Ehr!". Something we Germans are quite talented in.  Oh well... 

 

Edited July 8 by Water by the River

[Davino]

@Water by the River Thanks that's useful for my sense making.

I know you recommend mahamudra and a book I can't recall about the one taste.

Could you offer me some guidance regarding meditation? As well as some of your own personal experience and milestones in your path.

I've tried many here and there but for the moment the expansive and present ones seem to work best for me. I particularly enjoy the non localisation that meditation can give. Very peaceful. My objective for meditation is increasing my Awareness of the present moment. I'm a seasoned psychonaut so I'm not interested in the peaks of meditation but on a practice that translates into ordinary life and that can be even sustained in the midst of it.

Edited July 8 by Davino

[emil1234]

@Water by the River ur posts are always super valuable. ty <3 

[Purple Man]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

The mere appearance character, the Infinite impersonal field, the eternal/timeless background-nature of True Being

 Would you equate these three "modes" you just mentioned (eternal and timeless background nature of True Being/Impersonal Field/Mere appearance character) to what Buddhism tags as Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya, that is, the relationship between unmanifest Absolute and progressively denser manifestation? This is just out of cultural curiosity, because these three terms are not always that clear for someone who has not particularly adhered to Buddhism.

[Water by the River]

2 minutes ago, Purple Man said:

 Would you equate these three "modes" you just mentioned (eternal and timeless background nature of True Being/Impersonal Field/Mere appearance character) to what Buddhism tags as Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya, that is, the relationship between unmanifest Absolute and progressively denser manifestation? This is just out of cultural curiosity, because these three terms are not always that clear for someone who has not particularly adhered to Buddhism.

Yes. The timeless eternal "background" (which actually is everpresent even when appearances arise) is the Dharmakaya/True Being. Sambhogakaya is something like ETs/Alien/God/Devas and what not and so on, Nirmanakaya the two-legged ape being when awake. Any any distribution along that spectrum has been used in Buddhism. And its all One (without a second) & nondual. And yet a spectrum appears.

The Western version of it: The Great Chain of Being

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being#:~:text=The great chain of being is a hierarchical structure of,animals and plants to minerals.

"The great chain of being (from Latin scala naturae 'ladder of being') is a concept derived from Plato, Aristotle (in his Historia Animalium), Plotinus and Proclus.[4] Further developed during the Middle Ages, it reached full expression in early modern Neoplatonism.[5][6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

Infinity upwards, Infinity downwards.

On 26.10.2022 at 0:09 PM, Leo Gura said:

INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! INFINITY! 

 

Right.

And even ETs find their places in it, since its, um, appearing Infinity of Infinities. Pretty high up the ladder, but not at its end... since.... its INFINITY  Infinity.

A version of that can be found in pretty much all mystical traditions.

 

Finding alignments and resonance in many of the bubbles, eddies and vortexes appearing in the mighty infinite River, since it is always the same Infinite River, and that Infinite River flows in You

 

 

[Ishanga]

4 hours ago, emil1234 said:

@Water by the River ur posts are always super valuable. ty <3 

Yes he has very informative posts, its like reading a book lol, one of his posts referred to another teacher, Daniel Brown, I researched him, very cool material, very detailed system of how to get Enlightened, more inline with what I am drawn too compared to non dual teachings and such which promote no such methods...

 

[emil1234]

@Davino

https://www.youtube.com/@stephensnyderdharma/videos

this guy on youtube also has some nice lectures on cessation and meditation in general

 

[An young being]

Why does Wikipedia say cessation mean the stopping of the craving or desire? Is cessation same as ego dissolution or something else?

In Buddhism, nirodha, "cessation," "extinction," or "suppression,"[1] refers to the cessation or renouncing of craving and desire. It is the third of the Four Noble Truths, stating that suffering (dukkha) ceases when craving and desire are renounced.

6 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Cessation/Nirodha: Totally appearanceless "film-break" like cessation. Timeless/always here/Nothingness nature emphasized. Time needs appearance/objects/"movement"/change, no appearance/objects is timeless/always here. These states also clearly show that if nothing arises there is no self-consciousness

 

[Davino]

 @An young being It can mean multiple things. He answered to cessation as full dissolution, which was my question.