Thoughts on Political Messaging

[Joshe]

The situation is dire. I condone this messaging: 

Consider the impact this one troll has. Not ideal, but it's effective. 

[aurum]

On 8/21/2024 at 8:04 PM, Emerald said:

What is sense-making?

Sense-making is the process of understanding something through making distinctions.

We are engaging in it right now.

How did you come to understand mathematics? Or how a door works?

On 8/21/2024 at 8:04 PM, Emerald said:

How do you apply sense-making practically in the realm of politics WITHOUT weakening the impact of those that would practice good sense-making... thereby ensuring that those with bad sense-making will always win and take power?

There isn't a guarantee of that.

Sense-making may have an inverse relationship with power.

On 8/21/2024 at 8:04 PM, Emerald said:

Why does it negate the ability to skillfully use rhetorical skills like shorty punchy slogans?

I wouldn't say negate. But they can distort sense-making through manipulating perception. Slogans essentially brainwash people, which is very effective for political agendas.

Note: I'm not saying we should stop using slogans.

On 8/21/2024 at 8:04 PM, Emerald said:

How can you get the average person of average or below average intelligence to engage in sense-making regarding their engagement in politics?

Well they are engaging in sense-making, just a lower version of it.

Big picture, our collective sense-making will not deeply improve without decades of evolution and development globally. Survival is too strong for most people.

On 8/21/2024 at 8:04 PM, Emerald said:

How does sense-making improve the outcomes of politics?

By improving understanding.

But that doesn't mean it will improve any particular political agenda. I am purposefully making no guarantees of that.

Sense-making could ruin your political agenda.

On 8/21/2024 at 8:04 PM, Emerald said:

In the meantime, check this video out to understand my issue with prioritizing sense-making over pragmatic outcomes...

I watched your video. Essentially it is about political game theory dynamics from a left-wing, SD Green perspective.

It's fine overall. A piece of the puzzle.

But it's not what I would consider SD Tier 2 politics.

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, aurum said:

Sense-making is the process of understanding something through making distinctions.

We are engaging in it right now.

How did you come to understand mathematics? Or how a door works?

There isn't a guarantee of that.

Sense-making may have an inverse relationship with power.

I wouldn't say negate. But they can distort sense-making through manipulating perception. Slogans essentially brainwash people, which is very effective for political agendas.

Note: I'm not saying we should stop using slogans.

Well they are engaging in sense-making, just a lower version of it.

Big picture, our collective sense-making will not deeply improve without decades of evolution and development globally. Survival is too strong for most people.

By improving understanding.

But that doesn't mean it will improve any particular political agenda. I am purposefully making no guarantees of that.

Sense-making could ruin your political agenda.

I watched your video. Essentially it is about political game theory dynamics from a left-wing, SD Green perspective.

It's fine overall. A piece of the puzzle.

But it's not what I would consider SD Tier 2 politics.

Then so called "sense-making" is nonsensical in this context... because it gets in the way of pragmatism and doesn't work with how the world actually works.

It instead works with a naive idealistic vision of the world that doesn't exist. And it allows the forces of tyranny to take hold while so-called "sense-makers" get the intellectual victory of "being right".

But reality can only be properly engaged with pragmatically on the level of reality itself. (And as an aside, this is also part and parcel SD Tier 2 thinking.)

There is a story of the student and the master. And the master hands a very thin tea bowl to the student. The student takes the tea bowl and it immediately breaks in his hands.

And the student exclaims "The tea bowl was too thin!" 

And the master replies, "No, you held it too hard."

And the point of this parable is to showcase that there is wisdom with working with real world and how it works... rather than admonishing the world for not being ideal. 

Taking this parable into our context that we're discussing... it's practice in surrender to the nature of humanity, the world, and politics and working pragmatically with the reality AS OPPOSED TO saying that humanity, the world, and politics "should" function in a way other than what it does.

And then resisting any practical adjustments that deviate from the idealized state of humanity, the world, and politics that only exist in your mind and in your conceptualization of abstract models like Spiral Dynamics.

And that's why it's counter-productive navel gazing in this context because it necessarily opens to the doors for the forces of tyranny in favor of a more idealized political engagement.

Also, SD Tier 2 politics looks a lot like Green politics with a little more systemic awareness and less demonization. The goals are largely the same, but approached from a different frame of mind.

But until EVERYONE is in SD Tier 2 and has an IQ over 110 (which will never happen anytime near our lifetime), we have to engage with the multitude of diverse perspectives and levels of intelligence in order for democracy to function. And that means couching complex policy positions in the context of stories and narratives and slogans.

[Joshe]

I get the sense that highly analytical tier 2 folks don't like sharing the tier 2 label with intuitive types.

It seems like your solutions are rejected as inferior if they aren't clearly formed from a highly analytical process, which you must be able to demonstrate and articulate right now. If you can't, they call you stage green. But this is a difference in cognition, not values. 

Of course, this is just my intuition talking, I don't have any analytical proofs. 

 

Introverted thinking (Ti) (INTP), prioritizes precision and internal logical consistency. It seeks to construct a coherent framework where each piece of information logically connects and supports the others internally.

Introverted Intuition(Ni) (INFJ, INTJ) focuses on discerning underlying patterns and foreseeing future implications. It synthesizes disparate data points into a comprehensive vision or insight, often oriented towards predicting outcomes and understanding complex systems.

I intuit Ti feels Ni doesn't deserve the tier 2 label due to cognition bias. 

 

Edited August 23 by Joshe

[aurum]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

Then so called "sense-making" is nonsensical in this context... because it gets in the way of pragmatism and doesn't work with how the world actually works.

Then let it be non-sensical. At least for now.

If you want to go beyond tier 1, you can't get there with more tier 1. Sorry.

You have to do something else. 

Alternatively, just decide you want to stay at tier 1 and that you're done evolving in this way.

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

But reality can only be properly engaged with pragmatically on the level of reality itself. (And as an aside, this is also part and parcel SD Tier 2 thinking.)

Except you are misapplying that insight. Just engaging in more tier 1 pragmatism is NOT tier 2.

You have to actually discover what is beyond that.

What you are describing is an insight that is mostly appropriate for utopian SD Green types.

Tier 1 is already deeply rooted in pragmatism, and we are building on top of that. We don't need more of it.

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

Also, SD Tier 2 politics looks a lot like Green politics with a little more systemic awareness and less demonization. The goals are largely the same, but approached from a different frame of mind.

No!

Tier 2 is a WORLD apart from Green politics.

Tier 2 is not on the map.

Don't underestimate how big a difference it is.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, aurum said:

Then let it be non-sensical. At least for now.

If you want to go beyond tier 1, you can't get there with more tier 1. Sorry.

You have to do something else. 

Alternatively, just decide you want to stay at tier 1 and that you're done evolving in this way.

Except you are misapplying that insight. Just engaging in more tier 1 pragmatism is NOT tier 2.

You have to actually discover what is beyond that.

What you are describing is an insight that is mostly appropriate for utopian SD Green types.

Tier 1 is already deeply rooted in pragmatism, and we are building on top of that. We don't need more of it.

No!

Tier 2 is a WORLD apart from Green politics.

Tier 2 is not on the map.

Don't underestimate how big a difference it is.

First off, who cares about Spiral Dynamics and what tier it's in, really. It's a useful model in some contexts.

But if it gets in the way of common decency and common sense, then there's a problem.

Don't be so smart that your brain falls out.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Joshe said:

I get the sense that highly analytical tier 2 folks don't like sharing the tier 2 label with intuitive types.

It seems like your solutions are rejected as inferior if they aren't clearly formed from a highly analytical process, which you must be able to demonstrate and articulate right now. If you can't, they call you stage green. But this is a difference in cognition, not values. 

Of course, this is just my intuition talking, I don't have any analytical proofs. 

 

Introverted thinking (Ti) (INTP), prioritizes precision and internal logical consistency. It seeks to construct a coherent framework where each piece of information logically connects and supports the others internally.

Introverted Intuition(Ni) (INFJ, INTJ) focuses on discerning underlying patterns and foreseeing future implications. It synthesizes disparate data points into a comprehensive vision or insight, often oriented towards predicting outcomes and understanding complex systems.

I intuit Ti feels Ni doesn't deserve the tier 2 label due to cognition bias. 

 

To use the Spiral Dynamics model, it's Stage Orange analytical thinking believing it's Stage Yellow systems thinking... because Stage Green hasn't yet been fully integrated yet in relation to political engagement or approaches to real-word geopolitical issues. 

To use the MBTI model, it's more of a Thinking versus Feeling bias that disconnects one from the heart of the matter and the consideration of how sentient lives and planetary well-being are affected... which is the expression of politics that's most in alignment with love, compassion, health, and harmony in the first place. 

The systems we create and influence are designed to serve humans... not humans to serve systems.

So, the thought that Tier 2 thinkers would prioritize a theoretically "higher consciousness" process that sloughs off what works from earlier phases on the spiral... over the human wellbeing within the context of individual civic engagement is just a "brain in a jar" mistake.

When the mind gets too complex in its analysis, people get ungrounded from reality and lose sight of simple practical wisdom. 

People who are truly at Tier 2 would be pragmatic about the situation because common sense and common decency has been integrated into their perspective instead of tossed away for something more complex and ineffective.

And they will pull tools from whichever of the other phases most suits the political ends they feel serves the greater good... because pragmatism is the point.

So this is just an example of Stage Orange Thinking believing it is superior to Stage Green Feeling... and tossing away the practical tools of phases earlier on the Spiral.

But if they were suddenly on the chopping block, they'd wise up very quickly and realize that they're being an educated fool.

[aurum]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

First off, who cares about Spiral Dynamics and what tier it's in, really. It's a useful model in some contexts.

But if it gets in the way of common decency and common sense, then there's a problem.

Don't be so smart that your brain falls out.

Alright then. I’ve made my points but it doesn’t appear we are going to reach an agreement on this. I’m exiting this discussion now.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Alright then. I’ve made my points but it doesn’t appear we are going to reach an agreement on this. I’m exiting this discussion now.

If you don't want to continue the discussion, that's fine.

But you haven't made clear why you think it's better to prioritize "sense-making" over practical outcomes in a field that pertains to practical outcomes.

You've just said it's Tier 2 thinking as the justification and stressed that "it's a meta point" as a justification for your claims. But that's a very abstract answer that's not tied to any preferred real-world outcomes.

It's just "wiser because it's wiser" based off of the Spiral Dynamics model.

But none of that explains why it's better to function that way.

Why is it better to prioritize "sense-making" over pragmatism, even if it guarantees that sense-makers will have less or no power... and thus allows the forces of nonsense and tyranny to seize power and proliferate because they are the only ones willing to be pragmatic?

To me, it seems to be a problem of integration similar to what happens in The Dark Crystal.

The evil and foolish Skeksis are dynamic and have all the power. And the good and wise Mystics are slow and lumbering and have none of the power.

And in the integration between the two, you have a situation where you get something greater than just good.

My advice is that it is wise to approach politics as an integration between Yin and Yang with a full and total surrender to the nature of humanity and the world, as this will enable us to realize the highest expression of the political archetype within society where it serves the outcomes of health, harmony, and justice.

And health, harmony, and justice is the most beautiful flower... but recognize that the most beautiful flowers grow in the dirtiest of dirt. 

[Joshe]

@Emerald  Nice insights! I'm more interested in why Aurum is so confident that you and I are unwittingly locked into stage green.

I don't operate on SD and don't care much for it. I hesitate to peg myself at any stage because the model fails in too many ways, so when I talk about it, I'm mostly using the terms to symbolize "lower" and "higher". I don't mean to convey that I take the model seriously, even if I temporarily use its terms and concepts. 

Some scattered thoughts on what might be going on:

• Orange faking yellow for ego juice
  • If he's orange faking yellow, he's very good at it, which makes me think he might be higher than orange or just a high-IQ orange. 
  • Seems to be honest and sincere, which makes me lean away from orange, but not fully. 
• Sincere yellow trying to be helpful
  • If he's yellow, my guess is he saw you and I strongly condemn Musk, and he took that as the ultimate heuristic to auto-label us green.
    • Possibly because he was once a Musk fanboy
    • Or possibly because he saw Leo call us green SJW and figured if it was good enough for Leo, it's good enough for him. 
  • Or maybe there's some truth that I don't see. 
    • I don't think this is the case because I earnestly tried to see it and asked him how he was so certain I was stage green but he never gave a sufficient answer. Which leads me to think he just made a hasty judgement that he can't defend, which he refuses to own up to.

This isn't very important... just an interesting puzzle for me. Any thoughts? 

Edited August 24 by Joshe

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

But you haven't made clear why you think it's better to prioritize "sense-making" over practical outcomes in a field that pertains to practical outcomes.

Because if you fall into self-deception (which is gauranteed), your politics will turn to shit and your practical outcomes will turn into evil.

Case in point: Leninism

Edited August 24 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because if you fall into self-deception (which is gauranteed), your politics will turn to shit and your practical outcomes will turn into evil.

Case in point: Leninism

You should know better than this.

Sacrificing pragmatic outcomes in favor of some intellectually idealized form of political engagement that doesn't actually work in a real life context IS 100% SELF-DECEPTION and sets the stage for some REALLY heinous things to happen.

His perception of so-called "sense-making" to the sacrifice of pragmatism, if applied universally, would pretty much guarantees that authoritarianism would take hold. 

And then the authoritarians would target ACTUAL sense-makers first... as they always do. So, there would come to be ZERO space in society for higher consciousness perspectives as you would be silenced.

So, those that truly are sense-makers would ALSO be pragmatic. And they would integrate sense-making and pragmatism instead of seeing them as being diametrically opposed.

And if these so-called "sense-makers" aren't pragmatic... they are in a deep state of self-delusion. 

If you're in a burning building with a bunch of other people and you're the first among them to become aware, you SHOULD shout "Fire!"...

..instead of calmly intellectually explaining the mechanics of thermodynamics to the majority of people, and arguing on the existentialist philosophical merits of whether it is better to survive or not in the fire.

To do anything less is silly, and isn't properly sounding the alarm in the way that most people can and will digest it.

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And if these so-called "sense-makers" aren't pragmatic... they are in a deep state of self-delusion

Of course there needs to be some level of basic pragmatism. But most political actors fall into the trap of too little sense-making, not too much.

Leftists are especially guilty of this. Activism vs understanding and truth, which leads to post-modern absurdity.

Edited August 25 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

@Emerald  Nice insights! I'm more interested in why Aurum is so confident that you and I are unwittingly locked into stage green.

I don't operate on SD and don't care much for it. I hesitate to peg myself at any stage because the model fails in too many ways, so when I talk about it, I'm mostly using the terms to symbolize "lower" and "higher". I don't mean to convey that I take the model seriously, even if I temporarily use its terms and concepts. 

Some scattered thoughts on what might be going on:

• Orange faking yellow for ego juice
  • If he's orange faking yellow, he's very good at it, which makes me think he might be higher than orange or just a high-IQ orange. 
  • Seems to be honest and sincere, which makes me lean away from orange, but not fully. 
• Sincere yellow trying to be helpful
  • If he's yellow, my guess is he saw you and I strongly condemn Musk, and he took that as the ultimate heuristic to auto-label us green.
    • Possibly because he was once a Musk fanboy
    • Or possibly because he saw Leo call us green SJW and figured if it was good enough for Leo, it's good enough for him. 
  • Or maybe there's some truth that I don't see. 
    • I don't think this is the case because I earnestly tried to see it and asked him how he was so certain I was stage green but he never gave a sufficient answer. Which leads me to think he just made a hasty judgement that he can't defend, which he refuses to own up to.

This isn't very important... just an interesting puzzle for me. Any thoughts? 

I think Spiral Dynamics is a WONDERFUL system for diagnosing collective groups of people and the overall evolution of humanity... but a relatively ineffective way to diagnose one's own level of development because everyone's ego gets wrapped up in it.

To be fair, I do think that Aurum is intelligent and has many Yellow perspectives. But in this case, it's effectively prioritizing empty intellectual elitism over things that work practically. And it's the heartless head of Orange thinking that shows through in this perspective.

But I think this environment on the forum is mostly Orange with a smattering of Blue and Yellow here and there... but a Stage Green Shadow due to a general resistance towards the Feminine Principle and a mistrust towards it. 

Like Leo is often Orange with a smattering of Yellow in his approaches to topics on the forum... even though on his channel he's mostly talking about Yellow topics.

So, the people who are attracted to it tend to be people who have developed some Yellow perspectives but are still somewhat stuck back in Orange thinking as it pertains to practical topics like politics and dating.

So... it's Yellow on the level of intellect... but Orange on the level of lived experience.

So, there tends to be a prioritization of the ideal over the real... the lofty over the grounded... thinking over feeling... and the branches over the roots.

It's very "brain in a jar" empty analytical thinking to the sacrifice of the wisdom of human-heartedness... instead of a true synthesis between intellectual reason and human-hearted wisdom.

And this of course can lead to a lot of rationalizing ways of operating in the world that only work in the context of the ideals of the imagination.

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course there needs to be some level of basic pragmatism. But most political actors fall into the trap of too little sense-making, not too much.

Leftists are especially guilty of this. Activism vs understanding and truth, which leads to absurdity.

Certainly that can and does happen. There are many people who are naive to the overall wisdom of how the system works and evolves... who want to make the system conform IDEALLY to their vision of what "should" be.

And you see this a lot in fringy groups... both left and right... because society's status quo is very far from their idealized vision.

So, they try to use a top-down form of authoritarian control to force society to conform to their vision, working against the bottom-up currents of nature and human evolution in the process.

But I'm responding to Aurum saying that pragmatism is fundamentally opposed to sense-making and that it should be sacrificed for the sake of sense-making... instead of taking an integrative approach to it where both of those things can work together.

And this perspective, throws away necessary values-neutral tools of political engagement that can be used in both positive and negative ways depending on the wisdom and discernment of who wields them.

So, we can have a deep understand of policies and go deep in our philosophical understanding of politics individually.

But this will never negate the fact that, for every leader (political or otherwise)... it is a necessary tool to be able to create a compelling narrative with short, punchy, easy-to-remember messaging that encourages people to coalesce and galvanizes them towards a strong call to action.

And that's true at every stage in Spiral Dynamics because people will always be people and must coalesce towards common collective goals to produce wanted outcomes. 

And this is best organized like an orchestra where there is a conductor wielding the baton to ensure people can collaborate effectively.

And this case... it's using the tool of narrative and messaging to encourage people to vote to keep a wannabe autocrat out of office.

So, in this case, the pragmatism is wise because it reflects and amplifies the bottom-up will of those in the system who don't want America to become a Trumpian autocracy.

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald Fair enough.

[DLH]

This is a great conversation, and I appreciate everyone’s viewpoints, Thank you!

Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to immerse myself into higher educational fields of philosophy or psychology, which I would truly find fascinating if it incorporated spiritual awareness and consciousness.  

Having said that, I was an Air Traffic Control Instructor in the military many years ago and learned a few valuable lessons when sharing ideas, knowledge and concepts to students that had different backgrounds, levels of education, beliefs and maturity.

First lesson I learned was to be aware of the audience’s level of knowledge and maturity when sharing new ideas, knowledge and concepts.

Second lesson I learned, was to start at the basics, and slowly introduce the knowledge and concepts to the intend audience in the language that “most” can understand, and gradually increase the language, linguistics and acronyms to the intended level you wish to attain.

Politics, I feel, is no different!

The first question that needs to be asked, is who do you want to convince or share your political ideas, beliefs, knowledge and concepts?

Spiral Dynamics is “one of many” good tools to use for its simplicity.  In the case of the US election, I would hazard to guess most of the American audience is in the “Blue” and “Orange” category with very little understanding of how politics works, the pitfalls, manipulation, agendas and how it will affect the people that are voting.

That is how Trump managed to manipulate and influence such a mass following, by using basic language and concepts that played on their fears and emotions of the not so well-educated voters!

That’s how  autocrats rise to power!

That being said, I don’t believe using higher educational concepts, philosophy, vocabulary, and detailed ideas is going to be the best tool to educate the intend audience to vote for the party that is most aligned to there needs and wants.  You need to use the basics in this election!

The battle that is being fought in the US “at this moment in time,” is about democracy and decency over fascism and dictatorship.

Once this battle is over, and if democracy and decency wins, then you can follow-up with an educational system that will expand the consciousness and awareness of the audience, their struggles to venture beyond there narrow mind  beliefs systems, and to help them find greater Value Fulfilment in their lives. 

The only way democracy and decency can flourish in the world is through education!  This starts with the basics and with speaking their language and philosophical maturity, which will eventually help them to understand and interpret higher concepts, ideas, language and philosophical discussions in the future!    

Edited August 25 by DLH

[Joshe]

@Emerald Thanks! Your insights match my intuitions. I originally assumed the collective here would be more... evolved. I don't want to say "yellow", but something that has utterly transcended:

• Petty competitiveness of intellectual superiority
• The desire to be like Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen
• Allowing the ego to use intellectual prowess and access to insight as a tool to bolster itself

Like, if you're operating on intellectual vanity/hubris, I wouldn't call that evolved or, dare I say... yellow. It seems to me that true yellow would get NO ego juice from its common operations, but I'm not deep into SD, so IDK. 

Edited August 25 by Joshe

[Emerald]

@DLH 100%

[Emerald]

On 8/25/2024 at 1:56 PM, Joshe said:

@Emerald Thanks! Your insights match my intuitions. I originally assumed the collective here would be more... evolved. I don't want to say "yellow", but something that has utterly transcended:

• Petty competitiveness of intellectual superiority
• The desire to be like Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen
• Allowing the ego to use intellectual prowess and access to insight as a tool to bolster itself

Like, if you're operating on intellectual vanity/hubris, I wouldn't call that evolved or, dare I say... yellow. It seems to me that true yellow would get NO ego juice from its common operations, but I'm not deep into SD, so IDK. 

There's definitely a lot of that here. 

I originally joined the forum when it first began, and it was a bit more mellow and focused towards personal development and the like.

But things changed over the years vibes-wise and chased away a lot of the more constructive collaborative participants.

I mostly come back here from time to time to spar and debate with people I disagree with because it's fun and helps me get more clarity on my perspective through debate.

And that's because the culture of this forum is more of a place where you challenge people to intellectual debate battles. And it's fun and there is some connection with like-minded people... but definitely not a super constructive or growth-oriented place.