Spiritual Gain Is No Different Than Material Gain.

[hyruga]

Haha if your life is great and successful, you don't seek higher consciousness. 

Usually only if your life is somewhat messed up, then you will seek higher consciousness.

[An young being]

On 06/07/2024 at 5:01 AM, Princess Arabia said:

The paths are not the same, the outcome is. The thought is what ignited the desire, but the achievement is what gave the desired feeling. You have assumed that spirituality gives enduring peace to everyone and that material gain is always transient. I can also say that providing one can afford to keep getting the materialistic gain they so desire after each initial satisfaction has subsided, they can forever hold that in place also, with maybe only a short span of life's turmoils inbetween and that the peace that comes with spirituality can fluctuate back and forth where one has to keep meditating or whatever they do to keep it in place. You're still not, imo, showing me any differences, only a few that can vary from individual to individual. 

You are right in the sense that both desires arise due to a craving for good emotions like pleasure and happiness or to get rid of bad emotions like pain and suffering. Both materialistic and spiritual paths are taken to feel good.

What is to be understood from this insight is that people pursuing both desires are not different in any moral sense, and hence people should not be judged for taking a materialistic path. 

But what creates the opposite polarity between materialistic and spiritual paths ( here materialistic can be assumed as geared towards pleasure , and spiritual as geared towards bliss) is the ego.

Any activity geared towards pleasure is egoistic in nature. For example, take a car. If you buy a Mercedes to showcase yourself as rich before others, it is egoistic in nature. If you do it for the sake of enjoying the experience, it can't be termed as entirely materialistic, kindly note the difference). 

Any activity geared towards bliss is self less or ego less in nature. For example, relationships, kind and compassionate activities, enjoying nature, being in a flow state, mindfulness etc. If you're in a spiritual path and you are meditating with the intention to become a powerful god, it's still egoistic, please note the difference here as well)

There are not assumptions here, as plenty of scientific researches point out to these as a more long lasting forms of happiness. Also, karma is a formidable force that rewards effort but punishes egoistic activities, if you believe in spiritual traditions.

Why does the universe or God differentiate between these two qualities? That many of you I believe know the answer. For those who don't, the answer lies in the direction towards which the universe moves.

 

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, hyruga said:

Haha if your life is great and successful, you don't seek higher consciousness. 

Usually only if your life is somewhat messed up, then you will seek higher consciousness.

I find success to be great when I allow all the messed up parts of myself to come rushing out, like a tsunami cleansing the land.

[BlessedLion]

10 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I'm saying after the initial Rolex wears off, they'll need something else. After meditating and the peaceful feeling comes, more meditating is needed after that peace wears off. It takes consistent buying of stuff and consuming to maintain that feeling and it takes consistent spiritual practices to maintain that feeling. I don't see anyone meditating one time and say they are in constant peace and fullfilment. I see a lot on here still miserable even though they do spiritual practices. 

 

Yeah that’s a good point. My argument would be that gradually the meditating changes the mind and ego, 1 hour of meditating = .00001 % less suffering, while the Rolex doesn’t do that. 
 

I think most people here are jumping into spirituality without getting down the fundamentals, hence their misery. They have no money, can’t get sex, trauma, emotional, and bad habits 

[BlessedLion]

10 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

love Spirituality and I will not give it up for anything. I just love it for it's own sake. 

Bingo. I also feel this way, but I wouldn’t have gotten there (personally) if I hadn’t grounded through hours of meditating and spiritual work. It wasn’t always like that. So in a weird way, the striving and pursuing paid off in a “permanent” way. Nowadays it’s more about just not making dumb decisions and bad habits 

[Princess Arabia]

5 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

What's spiritual gain? 

Depends on your goals, and you can live however you want. That doesn't mean there are more empowering ways to live, or that actions stop producing consequences.

Going after ideals is doomed to fail from the start--thinking that getting what you want will in and of itself bring you happiness. The search itself is based on the idea that something is lacking in your experience now that you think must be present, which itself is based on pain.

Again, depends on how it's framed. If rather than spiritual gain, we call it becoming aware and present, having insights, discovering dynamics, or getting free, these are powerful things to do. If your motivation to pursue them is an ideal of completeness, then you might discover that it doesn't work that way.

You can be happy while contemplating, becoming increasingly authentic, investigating your motivations, pleasure, pain, happiness. Beyond fulfilling one's needs and perhaps some wants, acquiring a possession is like getting a new toy. It can enjoyed, but don't expect it will fulfill you. 

I like the way you framed it. Like I said in one of my comments, if done without expecting in return but just for the joy of it, imo, it's not a match to materialism, but if done to achieve something there's no difference other than contents because all is mind and thought is matter. 

[Princess Arabia]

15 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

Yeah that’s a good point. My argument would be that gradually the meditating changes the mind and ego, 1 hour of meditating = .00001 % less suffering, while the Rolex doesn’t do that

The less suffering could still be equated to moving in a bigger house VS a small dump. It's still a gain and an achievement for the personal ego. Still an egoic pursuit. Only the ego suffers. Difference is content.

[Princess Arabia]

41 minutes ago, An young being said:

Any activity geared towards bliss is self less or ego less in nature

Don't agree. Still egoic, imo. Still an activity geared towards something. Nothing wrong with it, but still egoic.

 

43 minutes ago, An young being said:

There are not assumptions here, as plenty of scientific researches point out to these as a more long lasting forms of happiness.

Long-lasting forms of happiness is a measured egoic accomplishment. Doesn't matter, still a form of seeking and an egoic pursuit being sought after and claimed to be a better pursuit of happiness. A longer lasting happiness VS a shorter one doesn't make the pursuit any better but only in the mind. You can still compare it to materialism where a cheap watch VS an expensive longer-lasting watch will bring more long-lasting happiness. The difference is the content.

[Princess Arabia]

Just wanted to share this video that inspired this post and I totally agree.

 

Edited July 9 by Princess Arabia

[bambi]

11 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

I'm saying after the initial Rolex wears off, they'll need something else. After meditating and the peaceful feeling comes, more meditating is needed after that peace wears off. It takes consistent buying of stuff and consuming to maintain that feeling and it takes consistent spiritual practices to maintain that feeling. I don't see anyone meditating one time and say they are in constant peace and fullfilment. I see a lot on here still miserable even though they do spiritual practices. 

IT doesn't matter what one does, it seems it needs to be constantly done to maintain itself and material or spiritual it's still a feeling being sought after even though spiritually speaking the feeling may last longer or is more in depth. You're not going to give up your practices tomorrow and say I'm alright now I've gained all I needed to gain and the consumer isn't stopping buying stuff because they are content. Both takes consistency and pretty much till you die. The person doing either just for the pleasure of doing them and not because they're looking to get something in return is the one, to me, who is indifferent and who knows how to enjoy life without getting anything from life back. When you're doing either for a gain there's no difference only in the content and maybe to satisfy the ego's desire for a better feeling and the spiritual seeker will believe they are being more productive but they still need to continue those practices till they die because if they were to stop that ego will lose the grip it thinks It has on it's well-being and the reason it's doing those practices. When Spiritual practices are done merely for the joy of doing them, then that's no match for materialistic consuming. That's the difference to me.  That's all I'm saying. 

I love Spirituality and I will not give it up for anything. I just love it for it's own sake. 

Lol! what do you mean you love spirituality and do it for its own sake, what spirituality do you do??

[Yimpa]

Just now, bambi said:

Lol! what do you mean you love spirituality and do it for its own sake, what spirituality do you do??

Infinite spirituality. Don’t yuck the yum.

[An young being]

51 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Don't agree. Still egoic, imo. Still an activity geared towards something. Nothing wrong with it, but still egoic.

Long-lasting forms of happiness is a measured egoic accomplishment. Doesn't matter, still a form of seeking and an egoic pursuit being sought after and claimed to be a better pursuit of happiness. A longer lasting happiness VS a shorter one doesn't make the pursuit any better but only in the mind. You can still compare it to materialism where a cheap watch VS an expensive longer-lasting watch will bring more long-lasting happiness. The difference is the content.

You have misunderstood me here, maybe because of the word 'geared'. I meant the activity, not the person doing it.

What you are talking about here are expectations, and there's no doubt having expectations is egoistic since you are desiring something to happen in a certain way. 

What you have to notice firmly here is that although a person initially may do these spiritual activities like mindfulness, spending time in nature, meditation, being selfless etc. with  the desire or expectations of happiness or freedom from suffering, the experience of doing these activities itself gradually reduces your expectations, mainly because of the sense of fulfillment or ego less nature associated with such activities. This in turn makes you less egoistic. A lot of Hindu and Buddhist techniques focus on reducing such expectations in life.

 

Edited July 9 by An young being

[Princess Arabia]

Just now, bambi said:

Lol! what do you mean you love spirituality and do it for its own sake, what spirituality do you do??

Just the fact of even this question shows an air of better than and trying to mock what one thinks the other is or isn't doing. It's a now comparison of who is doing what and laughing at one you think knows nothing about doing spiritual work. It's being condescending and putting oneself above the other. Judgements that come from ignorance because the assumptions have no merit other than what one thinks about the other person and not from anything known. 

I don't have to explain to you or anyone what I do or don't do on a spiritual level; but I would be more inclined to say if one had asked in a more respectable and less condescending manner. What I will say, however, is my demeanor, mannerism, respect level, the way I communicate to others, less confronting and laughing at others' way of expression and respecting people's privacy and not demanding of one to disclose practices they do or not do can far outweigh any spiritual practice one does.

In the end, it's about living in a way that we're not a menace to others, constantly showing up in disrespectful ways, uplifting others, sharing ourselves in ways that can change people's lives for the better and bringing out in others their best, the best we know how and to maybe put a smile on someone's face that we come in contact with. 

IT'S NOT SO MUCH WHAT ONE DOES at times, but what one doesn't do; and i damn sure am not a pain in the ass to most people I come in contact with and i do care for the way I make people feel with the way I communicate with them and try my best not to keep being a menace and a pest in people's lives and that can count for any spiritual practice one can do to try to bring happiness to themselves for the sake of less suffering in their obviously pathetic lives.

If I don't have a problem with myself and the world and i see no problems with the design of the Almighty and I'm not in conflict with the mind nor my thoughts, and I'm in acceptance with the way things are whether good bad or indifferent, then, as far as I'm concerned, I don't need to do any spiritual practices to try to change anything. However, whatever it is that I do, is none of your business and I'm not in the business of comparing myself to you or anybody's expression of how they conduct their spiritual practices; and as far as I'm concerned the act of taking a shit can be labelled as a spiritual practice; but it won't be to your limited mind and sheep mentality because in your mind you have to do something that is acceptable to the masses as to what SHOULD be done spiritually for it to be considered a worthwhile practice to save you from the miserable life you have and need to save yourself from. Thank you for the question and I hope this answered it well enough to satisfy your pathetic curiousity.

[Salvijus]

Desire for a better life is unstoppable and not in your control, might as well enjoy the ride.

It's God's will for you that you get to know and experience his glory evermore intimately and profoundly. 

Desire is not a curse, it's a blessing.

Edited July 9 by Salvijus

[Princess Arabia]

29 minutes ago, An young being said:

You have misunderstood me here, maybe because of the word 'geared'. I meant the activity, not the person doing it.

What you are talking about here are expectations, and there's no doubt having expectations is egoistic since you are desiring something to happen in a certain way. 

What you have to notice firmly here is that although a person initially may do these spiritual activities like mindfulness, spending time in nature, meditation, being selfless etc. with  the desire or expectations of happiness or freedom from suffering, the experience of doing these activities itself gradually reduces your expectations, mainly because of the sense of fulfillment or ego less nature associated with such activities. This in turn makes you less egoistic. A lot of Hindu and Buddhist techniques focus on reducing such expectations in life.

 

Ok, point taken; and you do raise a good point when you say "gradually reduces expectations because of a sense of more fulfillment". That's a difference; because in materialism the need is always more and more and more. Spiritualism can also create the need for more and more and more also but I get that the difference could result in a less egoic need for more.

[Princess Arabia]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Desire for a better life is unstoppable and not in your control, might as well enjoy the ride.

It's God's will for you that you get to know and experience his glory evermore intimately and profoundly. 

Desire is not a curse, it's a blessing.

No one said anything about desire being a curse, neither is it a blessing it just is. Curse and blessing goes full circle and the difference is only thought.

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

No one said anything about desire being a curse, neither is it a blessing it just is. Curse and blessing goes full circle and the difference is only thought.

You missed everything I said. At least take a breath before replying

Edited July 9 by Salvijus

[Davino]

4 hours ago, hyruga said:

Haha if your life is great and successful, you don't seek higher consciousness. 

Usually only if your life is somewhat messed up, then you will seek higher consciousness.

The highest levels of consciousness cannot happen unless your life is already very very well set.

What type of higher consciousness can happen in a dysfunctional life?  

[Princess Arabia]

56 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Infinite spirituality. Don’t yuck the yum.

It's a contest now. My house is bigger than your house. I do more than you do. Same difference, Some don't recognize they are stressing my point even more. I'm better than you in this context. What you do is no match for what I do. That was in the air for the asking of that "what do you do" question.

Edited July 9 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

6 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

You missed everything I said. At least take a breath before replying

No I didn't. At least try to understand what I'm saying.