Spiritual Gain Is No Different Than Material Gain.

[Princess Arabia]

All is mind, most will agree here. Your wanting a brand-new sports car, a new watch, shoes, a better job, starting a business or getting a new gf/bf, is no different than you wanting to achieve anything on a Spiritual level. You might think I'm insane but please hear me out; and this post is in no way trying to say not to do either or that a wanting a new car is the exact same thing as meditating. It's simply showing how the reasons for your desires are the same - A FEELING.

To achieve anything or to get our desires met, the same tool is used. Thought. Thought is matter. That car was a thought before it came into manifested existence. You wanted that car so you could FEEL a certain way, whatever that is. That spiritual practice we do, whatever it is, was once a thought. We want to achieve an outcome. That outcome makes us FEEL a certain way. That car, house, job, gf/bf, makes us FEEL a certain way. When that particular thing no longer makes us FEEL how we want to feel, it is replaced by another thought which then results in another desire in order to bring on said desired feeling. 

Acquiring something materialistically or Spiritually brings on the same result - a desired feeling. It's still trying to gain something. People who are materialistically rich or have acquired lots of materialistic goals tend to think they are better than others, more fortunate, in a better place and are blessed. People who have ascended Spiritually, transcended old behaviors, patterns, have achieved a lot on a Spiritual level, meditate a lot, have done shadow work, read a lot of Spuritual books, have gone to numerous retreats etcetc, tend to think they are above the normie, are more conscious, fortunate to have discovered this lifestyle, are above others who go out clubbing, drinking, gossip, and engage in low-conscious stuff. Whether it is low-conscious or not is not what I'm referring to here but the feeling it gives. Less hedonistic, more righteous, of a higher caliber human, more intelligent and above the rest in that way. How are the two any different when it's the same tool used and the results are the same.

It's all in the mind. Thoughts. Only difference is how that feeling was achieved. We are all searching for a feeling. Even the quest for truth , is satisfying an urge, a feeling of accomplishment a quest and a quenching of one's thirst. The desire for a hot chick VS the desire to feel at peace through meditation is pretty much a desire borne by thought and accomplished by thought. Same tool, same outcome - A BETTER FEELING. Believe it or not, some people are addicted to suffering and will go out of their way to self-sabotage because it's a familiar feeling, They are uncomfortable feeling feelings of happiness and joy because they don't feel deserving. IT'S ALL ABOUT A FEELING.

So to sum up, our quest for materialistic goals VS our quest for Spiritual ascension is really not any different, but only how the mind categorizes both, the contents, and the way it gets accomplished. Same result and same tool used. The mind has tricked us into believing that one is better than the other when the only thing achieved and or sought after is A BETTER FEELING. The same emotions arises when that desire on both levels doesn't get or gets met. Frustration, joy, sadness, happiness, contentment, peace etcetc and the same way they are all short-lived and the next quest begins. It never ends on both levels (material/spiritual), until both gets exhausted and the seeking stops which is almost next to impossible for the individual. It's automatic. Even the monk is seeking for a feeling of serenity. 

 

 

[Evelyna]

Yes! I agree. Just to add to your wonderful post here’s how I see it:

In order to reach a goal, you have to have a plan. It doesn't have to be a fancy plan, but you have to have some idea of how you are going to reach the goal. A plan simply consists of the steps you are going to take that bring you closer and closer to the goal.

The upside of plans is that sometimes they work. The downside of plans is that sometimes they don't work. This confuses a lot of people who identify with a plan. In other words, they think that if a plan fails, then they have failed. That's nonsense. People don't fail. People give up using a plan or aiming for a goal, but they don't fail.

After the goal and the plan there is a third factor important for success, and that's a purpose.

No one does anything without a purpose. A purpose is what motivates you to want to achieve a goal in the first place. It isn't an intellectual reason for doing it. It's an emotional reason based on some BENEFIT of achieving the goal. And in order to even move toward the goal, that benefit has to be more important to you than any benefit from NOT moving toward the goal. The more you love or desire something, the more likely you are to keep on moving and the more likely you are to succeed.

Goal is a goal doesn’t matter in what. 

 

[Princess Arabia]

3 minutes ago, Evelyna said:

Goal is a goal doesn’t matter in what.

Exactly. Your whole response was great and I see that you get the drift in what I was trying to relate. It get's overlooked because of how the mind likes to categorize things, which is fine because that's it's nature; but we have to try and step above the logical mind to really see life for what it is.

[emil1234]

yes i agree. ultimately it boils down to a single desire which all humans share; a good life. this is the incentive for both spiritual and material pursuits, actually all pursuits. its the reason people by a new car, they want something sparkly and shiny because they hope it will make them feel good. its the reason people meditate, they want to tranquil their mind and achieve a higher level of general comfort. its all about the desire to FEEL GOOD, whether we talk spirituality or materialism

the question is which pursuit ultimately satisfies the desire for a good life the best? materialism is inexhaustible, spirituality on the other hand.. exhausts the individual, to use your words

Edited July 5 by emil1234

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, emil1234 said:

materialism is inexhaustible

I think this can be exhausted also. Some stop trying to attain materialistic goals then turn to spirituality believing they are on a better path, which can be the case, not denying that, but it's still a quest to feel better about things/life. Even if they stop the materialistic seeking and never turn to spirituality they will still be on some form of quest even if it's the search for peace and tranquility. 

[emil1234]

@Princess Arabia given further thought, id add that spirituality has the potential to eradicate the actual desire for a good life, which ultimately grants the good life. the one who desires is the individual, life itself desires nothing. the death of the individual is the death of desire, which is the birth of the good life. out on a rant here but who cares

Edited July 5 by emil1234

[Princess Arabia]

5 minutes ago, emil1234 said:

, which ultimately grants the good life

Depends on the individual here also. Some are worse off because of expectations, confusion, lack of Spiritual maturity, emotional intelligence and so on.  Just as how many lose their lottery winnings because their minds didn't have the container to sustain it, the same can be said for those turning to this lifestyle who lack the maturity to do so. You can find the sameness and differences in both polarities. 

Edited July 5 by Princess Arabia

[emil1234]

3 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Depends on the individual here also. Some are worse off because of expectations, confusion, lack of Spiritual maturitym emotional intelligence and so on.  Just as how many lose their lottery winnings the same can be said for those turning to this lifestyle who lack the maturity to do so. You can find the sameness and differences in both polarities. 

hmm i dont know. id say that even expectations stem from the individual, and can thus be eradicted through spiritual practice. life itself is completely satisfied with whatever arises. you might be right with regards to spiritual maturity tho

Edited July 5 by emil1234

[Princess Arabia]

1 minute ago, emil1234 said:

id say that even expectations stem from the individual

Yeah, that's who I'm referring to.

[bambi]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

All is mind, most will agree here. Your wanting a brand-new sports car, a new watch, shoes, a better job, starting a business or getting a new gf/bf, is no different than you wanting to achieve anything on a Spiritual level. You might think I'm insane but please hear me out; and this post is in no way trying to say not to do either or that a wanting a new car is the exact same thing as meditating. It's simply showing how the reasons for your desires are the same - A FEELING.

To achieve anything or to get our desires met, the same tool is used. Thought. Thought is matter. That car was a thought before it came into manifested existence. You wanted that car so you could FEEL a certain way, whatever that is. That spiritual practice we do, whatever it is, was once a thought. We want to achieve an outcome. That outcome makes us FEEL a certain way. That car, house, job, gf/bf, makes us FEEL a certain way. When that particular thing no longer makes us FEEL how we want to feel, it is replaced by another thought which then results in another desire in order to bring on said desired feeling. 

Acquiring something materialistically or Spiritually brings on the same result - a desired feeling. It's still trying to gain something. People who are materialistically rich or have acquired lots of materialistic goals tend to think they are better than others, more fortunate, in a better place and are blessed. People who have ascended Spiritually, transcended old behaviors, patterns, have achieved a lot on a Spiritual level, meditate a lot, have done shadow work, read a lot of Spuritual books, have gone to numerous retreats etcetc, tend to think they are above the normie, are more conscious, fortunate to have discovered this lifestyle, are above others who go out clubbing, drinking, gossip, and engage in low-conscious stuff. Whether it is low-conscious or not is not what I'm referring to here but the feeling it gives. Less hedonistic, more righteous, of a higher caliber human, more intelligent and above the rest in that way. How are the two any different when it's the same tool used and the results are the same.

It's all in the mind. Thoughts. Only difference is how that feeling was achieved. We are all searching for a feeling. Even the quest for truth , is satisfying an urge, a feeling of accomplishment a quest and a quenching of one's thirst. The desire for a hot chick VS the desire to feel at peace through meditation is pretty much a desire borne by thought and accomplished by thought. Same tool, same outcome - A BETTER FEELING. Believe it or not, some people are addicted to suffering and will go out of their way to self-sabotage because it's a familiar feeling, They are uncomfortable feeling feelings of happiness and joy because they don't feel deserving. IT'S ALL ABOUT A FEELING.

So to sum up, our quest for materialistic goals VS our quest for Spiritual ascension is really not any different, but only how the mind categorizes both, the contents, and the way it gets accomplished. Same result and same tool used. The mind has tricked us into believing that one is better than the other when the only thing achieved and or sought after is A BETTER FEELING. The same emotions arises when that desire on both levels doesn't get or gets met. Frustration, joy, sadness, happiness, contentment, peace etcetc and the same way they are all short-lived and the next quest begins. It never ends on both levels (material/spiritual), until both gets exhausted and the seeking stops which is almost next to impossible for the individual. It's automatic. Even the monk is seeking for a feeling of serenity. 

 

 

While your perspective on the nature of desires and feelings has some merit, it appears to lack a deeper understanding of the fundamental distinctions between material pursuits and spiritual practice. Allow me to gently enlighten you.

You assert that both materialistic and spiritual desires are merely tools used to achieve a better feeling, implying that they are fundamentally the same. However, this view oversimplifies the profound differences in intent, process, and ultimate outcomes of these pursuits.

The quest for material goods is often rooted in the ego, driven by societal conditioning and external validation. People seek cars, houses, or relationships to bolster their self-image or gain social status. These desires are inherently transient and superficial, tied to the impermanent and often illusory nature of worldly satisfaction.

In contrast, genuine spiritual practice aims to transcend the ego and uncover the deeper truths of existence. It's not merely about feeling better but about achieving a state of inner peace, clarity, and liberation from the cycles of desire and aversion. Spiritual seekers aim to understand the nature of the mind and reality itself, moving beyond the fleeting pleasure of sensory experiences.

Material pursuits are typically linear and finite. You set a goal, work towards it, and either achieve it or move on to the next desire. The satisfaction derived from these accomplishments is usually short-lived, as you've aptly noted.

Spiritual practice, on the other hand, is an ongoing journey of self-discovery and inner transformation. It's a process of shedding layers of ignorance and conditioning, which involves practices like meditation, mindfulness, and ethical living. These practices cultivate a stable, enduring sense of contentment and equanimity that is not dependent on external circumstances.

The fulfillment of material desires often leads to a perpetual cycle of seeking, as each attainment leaves you wanting more, never truly satisfying the deeper yearning for lasting happiness.

Spiritual practice, however, aims at breaking this cycle. The ultimate goal is not another transient feeling but a profound shift in consciousness. When one realizes the nature of the mind and attains enlightenment, the endless quest for external validation and pleasure ceases. One experiences a lasting sense of peace and fulfillment that is not contingent on external conditions.

To compare the desire for a hot car with the desire for spiritual enlightenment is to misunderstand the essence of the spiritual path. True spiritual seekers do not engage in practice to achieve fleeting feelings of joy or peace but to uncover the very root of suffering and transcend it. The feeling of serenity you mention is not the end goal but a byproduct of a much deeper realization.

Your argument hinges on the notion that both paths are fundamentally the same because they use thought to achieve a desired feeling. This overlooks the qualitative difference between the transient happiness from material gains and the enduring peace from spiritual realization. The mind's trickery, as you put it, is precisely what spiritual practice seeks to unravel, revealing the mind's true nature and freeing one from its deceptions.

In summary, while it is true that both material and spiritual pursuits can involve seeking and the use of thought, their intents, processes, and ultimate outcomes are vastly different. Understanding these distinctions is crucial for appreciating the profound depth of the spiritual journey. Perhaps, with a bit more reflection and deeper inquiry, you too might come to see beyond the superficial similarities and grasp the true essence of spiritual practice.

[Ishanga]

Innate within Us while here in "Embodied" Form (we are Life/God/Absolute but in a limited form of Embodiment) is the Desiring Process, this Desiring process allows Us as Humans to be unique in this world of Life Forms we have here on Earth, no other Life form has a Desiring Process as Strong and Complex as we do..

This Desiring Process can play out in Billions of ways, most ppl keep it at the Level of Accumulating More and more Ppl, places and things, this is on the Level of Survival and Stimulating the 5 senses, but if You go further on this process it transcends the 5 sense Level and goes to Your Energies and beyond, where You know You are not the Body or Mind, but are here to Play a Games of Sorts, a Game of Duality, Knowing and Not Knowing, Gaining and Losing, and Experiencing, Dreaming, Imagining and Dealing with Time and Mortality, all of which does not happen in the Absolute Realm or view point, so one cannot bypass this Desiring Process, no matter what You do or think and believe or philosophize, Desiring is Happen.. 

So all gaining, Material or Otherwise is Spiritual in that it is Desire, whether You are buying a car or accumulating more Money, Power, Knowledge, Spiritual Sense and Knowing, is Desire playing its way out in limited forms, only when You are naturally Blissful does it sort of end, it completely ends when You are Disembodied and no longer Individual in any form or way, you merge back into the Absolute, like a drop of the Ocean going back into the Ocean..

Edited July 5 by Ishanga

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, bambi said:

. Perhaps, with a bit more reflection and deeper inquiry, you too might come to see beyond the superficial similarities and grasp the true essence of spiritual practice.

There's nothing is my post that suggests that I'm not aware of the essence of spiritual practices. Maybe it's because I did do intense reflection and do grasp the essence of both why I'm making such claims. What you've done here in your response was to show why a Mercedes is better than a Honda. I also said I wasn't comparing the desire for a car to be the same as the desire to meditate or any spiritual practice.

The only reason why you say superficial similarities is because that's how you see it, but not actually how it is. It's a perception. All the reasons you gave why spirituality is not the same, they are all perceptions. The Universe/Absolute/whatever you call it, life doesn't. How can we say it's all one, but then put the One into categories and compartments and departments. The mind does that.

You have also turned my post into me saying I don't see beyond the superficial similarities when I was merely stating an observation and never once said that I don't see beyond anything. Maybe I do see beyond the superficiality of buying a car and have raised the bar for materialism while not lowering the Spiritual bar. You have assumed that I don't see the benefit of spiritual practices or that materialism doesn't have a spiritual essence to it. The mind is what differentiates the two, not according to the Absolute oneness of it all.

IMO, your response have highlighted the point i was trying to make and have given it much merit.

Edited July 5 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

28 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

so one cannot bypass this Desiring Process, no matter what You do or think and believe or philosophize, Desiring is Happen

My post was not about bypassing the desiring process. It was to show there is no difference in spiritual desires and materialistic desires. They are one of the same. We can rationalize all we want about why spirituality is better and it goes deeper than materialism, but at the end of the day, there is no ultimate difference. That's what the post is about.

Edited July 5 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, bambi said:

Allow me to gently enlighten you.

Another credit given to my post where Spiritual beings believe they are enlightening anyone because of a difference of opinion or perspective or belief.

[Ishanga]

3 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

My post was not about bypassing the desiring process. It was to show there is no difference in spiritual desires and materialistic desires. They are one of the same. We can rationalize all we want about why spirituality is better and it goes deeper than materialism, but at the end of the day, there is no ultimate difference. That's what the post is about.

But there is a subtle difference, yes in basic terms they are the same, if Your only looking at basics, Your not being very nuanced, Your too basic in your Spiritual outlook I would say.,..

[Thought Art]

Spiritual gain > Material Gain

 both matter for human life generally 

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, bambi said:

The quest for material goods is often rooted in the ego, driven by societal conditioning and external validation. People seek cars, houses, or relationships to bolster their self-image or gain social status. These desires are inherently transient and superficial, tied to the impermanent and often illusory nature of worldly satisfaction.

In contrast, genuine spiritual practice aims to transcend the ego and uncover the deeper truths of existence. It's not merely about feeling better but about achieving a state of inner peace, clarity, and liberation from the cycles of desire and aversion. Spiritual seekers aim to understand the nature of the mind and reality itself, moving beyond the fleeting pleasure of sensory experiences.

These are relative differences and depending on the taste of the individual and also interests. A personal analysis and has nothing to do with the intent of the Absolute/Universe/God/Source. It is still trying to achieve something and it's the mind that makes the distinction between which is more important.

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

But there is a subtle difference, yes in basic terms they are the same, if Your only looking at basics, Your not being very nuanced, Your too basic in your Spiritual outlook I would say.,..

I would beg to differ and I see it as the opposite. So much so that it did a 360 and came back full circle. Maybe it's the opposers that aren't being indepth enough to see through the differences. This is just a matter of opinion and I respect yours.

[Thought Art]

One Taste 

[James123]

@Princess Arabia spiritual goal is killing the self.

Material goal is gaining of selfs. 

Completely opposite.