How to ACTUALLY and permanently change your mind

[Joshe]

I’m curious if anyone has successfully and intentionally used meditation for removing useless/toxic and unconscious mind programs/mentations/thought patterns and either swapping them out for upgrades, aka, recontextualize/reframe, or just allowing empty space to be in their place. I’m sure the answer is yes but I’m interested in the amount of effort that went into it and the degree of success attained and if it persisted or is it something like AA where you have to daily maintain your success. 

I guess I’m asking, what does it take to truly change how the psyche operates. 

Apparently, Leo is coming out with a new course that seems to basically be about actually changing the way the mind behaves and perceives, so that will be interesting, but I’m interested in the amount of effort those with success have put in and the degree of success they were able to attain. I ask because if I have to invest 1 hour a day for a year and I only get 10% of my desired result, I might consider passing on meditation. 

I have a feeling that self-guided CBT/cognitive behavioral therapy would have a greater and faster impact on my goals and would save me a ton of time and effort but I’m not sure. I intuit the two practices would be synergistic and that’s probably the best course of action, but I’m curious if anyone has actually had any success or even failures in this sort of endeavor and would like to share their experience.  

Thank you! 

Edited July 5 by Joshe

[bambi]

I would say  a combinaiton of psychedelics  and meditation will be the two most potent tools. Along with group therapies/support and consuming positive content

[mmKay]

@Joshe " Meditation " helps you to become aware of your thoughts and behaviours , it's only the first step . 

Meditation = observing without judging.

If you cant even notice your thought patterns, good luck changing them.

There are dozens of different meditation techniques depending of what you're doing it for .

It also can slightly increase your baseline of consciousness so that you can notice your emotions during your day to day life, not just the thoughts,  and then you know where to look to understand your beliefs ( being triggered points at subconscious beliefs )

Then you need a journaling, introspection and contemplation habit, for exploring your beliefs and subconscious mind. You don't need to wait for them to appear, you can actively seek them out with the right questions. 

"What am I truly afraid of here?" When facing resistance to change

"How is this serving me?" When stuck in negative patterns

"What am I avoiding?" When procrastinating

etc

Thats for for pulling out the weeds. If you want to plant new beliefs it's a whole different game, which is what Leo's course will be about. Reprogramming your subconscious mind requieres consistent reminders , habits, mantras, visualization, identity change, etc.

If you elaborate more on how exactly do you want to " permantly change your mind " I may provide more perspective

cheers

Edited July 5 by mmKay

[James123]

@Joshe

https://youtube.com/shorts/YQV2OEtUCLg?si=1o9nRtYk0CfdR7fK

 

[mmKay]

31 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Joshe

https://youtube.com/shorts/YQV2OEtUCLg?si=1o9nRtYk0CfdR7fK

 

I don't recommend that perspective because identifying yourself with your emotions is counter productive. Yes, definitely dont try to micromanage and obsesively controll your emotions, fully feel and experience them without judgement, but don't make it personal by identifying yourself with them .

" understanding the totallity of consciousness without analysys " is not a good strategy to develop emotional intelligence. It requieres deep understanding of your identity and beliefs.

Rather than I'm angry ( or I am anger , " I'm not different from anger "  in the case of that speaker ) , i'd go with " I'm experiencing anger, or anger is happening ", or a belief of mine about this specific situation is triggering anger in my body " if you want to be more elaborate.

It gives you a healthy distance . You control your emotions by understanding and reframing the beliefs that trigger them, sometimes very subconscious beliefs about your sense of self, how the world should or shouldnt be, what is right or wrong, how people should or shouldn't behave, etc .

 

Edited July 5 by mmKay

[Evelyna]

Yes I think I have had some successes with it and some things I am still working on. For me in my experience it took understanding firstly that I am able to change what I don’t prefer in myself, secondly it took daily practise, a lot of self talk and a lot of replacing of old habits this includes the way I thought/felt with new ones. I found that once I have practised the new way of thinking enough it became a habit and I didn’t have to practise it as much any more. I also am now very aware  it takes conscious effort to maintain a state of being I would prefer , I found a momentum and then try to maintain it all day every day, some things like I already mentioned became a habit already and some I will be working on for some time to come. I think it takes continues work and small steps, small successes. Also I really enjoy the moments where I notice the change in me, a different reaction , different line of thought and a sense of accomplishment, this gives me enough feedbacks to keep going, keep changing and keep working on myself. 

[James123]

9 minutes ago, mmKay said:

I don't recommend that perspective because identifying yourself with your emotions is counter productive. Yes, definitely dont try to micromanage and obsesively controll your emotions, fully feel and experience them without judgement, but don't make it personal by identifying yourself with them .

You are your emotions.

10 minutes ago, mmKay said:

understanding the totallity of consciousness without analysys " is not a good strategy to develop emotional intelligence. It requieres deep understanding of your identity and beliefs.

Emotional intelligence is an illusion.

11 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Rather than I'm angry ( or I am anger , " I'm not different from anger "  in the case of that speaker ) , i'd go with " I'm experiencing anger, or anger is happening ", or a belief of mine about this specific situation is triggering anger in my body " if you want to be more elaborate.

We are not talking about can it be elaborate or tolerant, we are talking about the Truth. You can not be angry, you are the anger. 

12 minutes ago, mmKay said:

It gives you a healthy distance . You control your emotions by understanding and reframing the beliefs that trigger them, sometimes very subconscious beliefs about your sense of self, how the world should or shouldnt be, what is right or wrong, how people should or shouldn't behave, etc .

 

This makes everything complicated. Because, you are trying to control, meanwhile no one is on control whatsoever. If you recognize this it is ease to go with life. When you are not on control, all goes moment to moment. 

 

 

[mmKay]

@James123 What buddhist talk gets right is to be present and feel your emotions. If you resist them , you will suffer. You are your emotions, but also, you aren't your emotions, you're the observer. 

The no-mind bias against "  thinking " holds people back from introspection and understanding what triggers those emotions inside of them. If you have a belief that people owe you respect, and then someone disrespects you, you will consistently feel triggered throughout your entire life. If you find out you hold that belief, and then reframe it to " no one owes me respect,  and some people are just lost in their own problems" , you won't be triggered that much or not at all.

So in that sense, you can definitely control your emotions, but indirectly, which is the way to go. And that is emotional intelligence, together with recognizing and understanding all the nuances of how different feelings feel. Calling it an illusion is spiritual bypassing, just like saying " well your dog is my dog because possesion doesnt exist so ill take him with me. Absolute Truth is different from relative truths.

Just being present and not using your mind for introspection and contemplation will turn y'all into Feral Buddhist Critters

So to anwser again OP's question, meditation is good but it will only get you so far

Edited July 5 by mmKay

[James123]

@mmKay @mmKay imo, spirituality is so hard but not complicated. Living moment to moment is the key even if it is so though to do it, which is meditation every moment. Being aware. 

[An young being]

26 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Just being present and not using your mind for introspection and contemplation will turn y'all into Feral Buddhist Critters

No, mindfulness will make you non reactive, which means anger, fear etc. which are purely reactive emotions, will automatically disappear.

[Evelyna]

8 minutes ago, An young being said:

No, mindfulness will make you non reactive, which means anger, fear etc. which are purely reactive emotions, will automatically disappear.

You don’t think anger is helpful? I don’t think the emotion called anger is an automatic reaction. We can feel anger and not react to it , same with fear , we can feel fear yet overcome our reaction to it. I prefer to look at those as an alarm system letting me know what is going on with me or in the situation I’m in, from there I am able to choose my reaction. And I don’t think that emotions will disappear but I do think we can choose how we react when emotion arises. 

Edited July 5 by Evelyna

[mmKay]

20 minutes ago, An young being said:

No, mindfulness will make you non reactive, which means anger, fear etc. which are purely reactive emotions, will automatically disappear.

That doesnt fly in the real world. If you have some fears, fobias, traumas, just being present with it is not enough. If it only was that simple humanity would be way saner and functional than it is. If you are present with fear and anger, you will feel fear and anger. It's one step above repressing it. It allows you to feel them and possibly let them go, which is not a garantee. It's just the beggining. Through introspection and contemplation you get to the root causes that generate those issues, solving the problem from the very root.

The more core and essential the situation and beliefs are to your survival (  whether social, physical, or of your identity and beliefs ) the stronger the emotional reactions will be 

Saying you will become non-reactive to emotional responses by simply being present is a long stretch. You will be stuck at the level of feeling the negative emotions and suffering to release them for the rest of your life, when If you understand your subconscious, you can stop the emotions from appearing in the first place

13 minutes ago, Evelyna said:

You don’t think anger is helpful? I don’t think the emotion called anger is an automatic reaction. We can feel anger and not react to it , same with fear , we can feel fear yet overcome our reaction to it. I prefer to look at those as an alarm system letting me know what is going on with me or in the situation I’m in, from there I am able to choose my reaction. 

Anger specifically orignates from feeling hurt in some way. because someone crossed your bondaries, doesnt respect you, doesnt take you in consideration, isn't interested in your wellbeing... etc. It's helpful in that it coerces you to impose yourself on whoever is making you feel hurt. It's a survival mechanism to look out for your own interest

Edited July 5 by mmKay

[Rishabh R]

@Joshe yeah CBT works for me .

[Evelyna]

11 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Anger specifically orignates from feeling hurt in some way. because someone crossed your bondaries, doesnt respect you, doesnt take you in consideration, isn't interested in your wellbeing... etc. It's helpful in that it coerces you to impose yourself on whoever is making you feel hurt. 

Yes ok I agree that it may in some cases originate from feeling hurt, but this also determines what makes you feel hurt , now you know what it is, and it begs the question why did that particular thing made you feel hurt, which begs the question can I change this to a different perspective and decide this thing will no longer make me feel hurt, and this automatically makes feeling of anger useful but this is just a personal observation of mine. 

Edited July 5 by Evelyna

[mmKay]

@Evelyna yes, i just explained it above

"  If you have a belief that people owe you respect, and then someone disrespects you, you will consistently feel triggered throughout your entire life. If you find out you hold that belief, and then reframe it to " no one owes me respect ( with the proper justifications and taking in consideration all objections our mind may come up with ) " , you won't be triggered that much or not at all. " 

This is one of the core pillars of emotional intellgence

i just dont understand what do you mean with 

8 minutes ago, Evelyna said:

and this automatically makes feeling of anger useful 

 

Edited July 5 by mmKay

[Evelyna]

9 minutes ago, mmKay said:

@Evelyna yes, i just explained it above

"  If you have a belief that people owe you respect, and then someone disrespects you, you will consistently feel triggered throughout your entire life. If you find out you hold that belief, and then reframe it to " no one owes me respect ( with the proper justifications and taking in consideration all objections our mind may come up with ) " , you won't be triggered that much or not at all. " 

This is one of the core pillars of emotional intellgence

i just dont understand what do you mean with 

 

You have  just answered the question you are asking it is useful in finding out what belief you hold. 

[An young being]

20 minutes ago, Evelyna said:

You don’t think anger is helpful? I don’t think the emotion called anger is an automatic reaction. We can feel anger and not react to it , same with fear , we can feel fear yet overcome our reaction to it. I prefer to look at those as an alarm system letting me know what is going on with me or in the situation I’m in, from there I am able to choose my reaction. And I don’t think that emotions will disappear but I do think we can choose how we react when emotion arises. 

If you are fully present, I believe it happens automatically, through intuition , although I should admit I am not an expert in this domain. Even if you aren't, you will start noticing anger arise for trivial reasons related to ego, and such egoistic reactions will disappear.

What about the anger when you see somebody unrelated to you suffering injustice? You can either choose to react or not in that way, but anger always has repercussions, no matter if it's selfish or selfless. It switches off your rational mind. 

23 minutes ago, mmKay said:

Saying you will become non-reactive to emotional responses by simply being present is a long stretch. You will be stuck at the level of feeling the negative emotions and suffering to release them for the rest of your life, when If you understand your subconscious, you can stop the emotions from appearing in the first place

When you immerse all your senses in the present, in other words what is happening around you, especially with a sense of awe, there is no space left in your mind to have selfish reactions. You realise everything is so perfect, the beautiful mouth of your spouse uttering the ugly words, the sound touching your ears and vibrating, so many colours and shapes with the face, light falling on them and making it even more beautiful, when you have so much life to marvel at, where would your ego find space to react? Mindfulness becomes a powerful version of meditation, with so much beauty instead of just the breathe to concentrate upon.

[Evelyna]

15 minutes ago, An young being said:

 

What about the anger when you see somebody unrelated to you suffering injustice? You can either choose to react or not in that way, but anger always has repercussions, no matter if it's selfish or selfless. It switches off your rational mind. 

When you immerse all your senses in the present, in other words what is happening around you, especially with a sense of awe, there is no space left in your mind to have selfish reactions. You realise everything is so perfect, the beautiful mouth of your spouse uttering the ugly words, the sound touching your ears and vibrating, so many colours and shapes with the face, light falling on them and making it even more beautiful, when you have so much life to marvel at, where would your ego find space to react? Mindfulness becomes a powerful version of meditation, with so much beauty instead of just the breathe to concentrate upon.

 

emotion of anger and a reaction to it are two different things I think. When you see someone being hurt emotion of anger will arise because of the love and empathy you have , anger itself won’t have any repercussions unless you make a decision on how you react while feeling the emotion. And so i can determine that anger not always arises from ego or selfishness but sometimes from love and compassion following that I think anger is just an emotion that can be felt but not reacted to I can observe it , learn from it and use it to help me understand more of myself and others. 
I’m not sure how I wrote this in to your response 😂 and not below it. 

Edited July 5 by Evelyna

[mmKay]

@Evelyna yes, you can inquire all emotions to find out what beliefs are they attached to

 

15 minutes ago, An young being said:

When you immerse all your senses in the present, in other words what is happening around you, especially with a sense of awe, there is no space left in your mind to have selfish reactions. You realise everything is so perfect, the beautiful mouth of your spouse uttering the ugly words, the sound touching your ears and vibrating, so many colours and shapes with the face, light falling on them and making it even more beautiful, when you have so much life to marvel at, where would your ego find space to react? Mindfulness becomes a powerful version of meditation, with so much beauty instead of just the breathe to concentrate upon.

just being present allows you to notice and feel. It doesnt adress the root causes, and if thats your main tool,  you will keep experiencing these negative emotions over and over .If you have trauma, fears, phobias , etc, being present will only do so much. In practice, you can be present and still get triggered inmensely. This is not theory, you can see this for yourself. Also being fully present during challenging emotional situations is unrealistic. Some emotions are so strong they will sweep you off of your feet and leave you curled into a ball.

This is the Personal Development subforum and there is too much woo-woo in this thread, no offense

Edited July 5 by mmKay

[Evelyna]

4 minutes ago, mmKay said:

This is the Personal Development subforum and there is too much woo-woo in this thread, no offense

😂😂 woo woo! Brilliant. Well I think it’s a problem of definitions of words people hold and their own personal understanding. These debates are purely talk of different definitions for one and the same thing.