Let me teach you a lesson in epistemology

[Keryo Koffa]

@Breakingthewall Hmm, I think I finally see what you're pointing to. I think you're saying that Direct Present Experience is "Absolutely Real" and that within it and based on it, "Dreams" occur, as a dynamic subset and direct result or in other words "emerging behavior" that is relative and malleable but based on the absolute realness of the Reality we experience and know, that which feels so real and physical, which we live and talk in.

The alternative perspective is that everything is a dream and reality is a dream with a very strong specialized focus, a dream whose limitations and barriers are far more powerful and self-consistent, a dream that has a strong gravitational attraction, that makes one fall back into homeostasis from various states of mind and a dream that is not easily modified through intent alone. But ultimately, it is a dream, a dream that imposes its own limits but those limits being ultimately groundless and only upkept by the conscious entity dreaming it.

What I am currently exploring, is the possibility that we are conscious dream entities within such a very real dream, that has a very strong homeostatic drive, but one which we may being able to start to affect through our level of consciousness but would be limited from expressing by the nature of all other dream entities upholding the consistency of the dream themselves and keeping its homeostatic "laws of nature". I've been exploring the Seth Material, in which everything is consciousness and there beliefs itself shape reality and there is a vast cooperation of conscious entities creating a shared reality through their focus, and an inner self that is absolutely conscious creating an outer ego to create specific experiences like the world we live in, which is very consistent due to various mass and individual beliefs reinforcing the nature of this shared reality. Everything is and stays as real as we experience it though, beliefs are much deeper and more experiential and visceral that just making statements.

[Someone here]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The only thing that matters to me about all this is that I would rather have my leg cut off in a dream than when I wake up. What does the classification of reality matter? The only important thing is the consequences for me. awakening, or enlightenment or whatever you want to call it is not knowing that kind of thing but knowing what reality is in essence. In essence everything is the same, therefore yes, you are right, essentially a dream or wakefulness are made of the same substance, but as far as you are concerned, are different. The thing is being open to that substance. 

That's called pragmatism. This is not interest in truth for truth's sake . 

I see you admit eventually that dreams and the waking reality are made of the same substance..which is kinda obvious and it doesn't need that much of intellect to conclude such a thing .

I asked you how do you know you are In real life and not in a dream universe and you ignored that part. 

But I will keep being pushy and I concur that you must give me an answer to this question otherwise the conversation will be branched in infinite threads that are unnecessary as far as I'm concerned. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

That's called pragmatism. This is not interest in truth for truth's sake . 

I see you admit eventually that dreams and the waking reality are made of the same substance..which is kinda obvious and it doesn't need that much of intellect to conclude such a thing .

I asked you how do you know you are In real life and not in a dream universe and you ignored that part. 

But I will keep being pushy and I concur that you must give me an answer to this question otherwise the conversation will be branched in infinite threads that are unnecessary as far as I'm concerned. 

 

14 hours ago, Keryo Koffa said:

 

because the word dream by definition means a mental image that imitates reality. If there is only a dream, it would not be a dream, since there is no real model with which to compare it nor a dreamer who produces it based on that model.

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

because the word dream by definition means a mental image that imitates reality. If there is only a dream, it would not be a dream, since there is no real model with which to compare it nor a dreamer who produces it based on that model.

OK thanks.. I understand what you are saying ..a question here:

is reality itself (whatever it is ..a dream..a simulation..a video game ..Real Life etc ) a mental phenomenon or physical phenomenon?  That is ..is it idealism that you believe in or physicalism? 

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

OK thanks.. I understand what you are saying ..a question here:

is reality itself (whatever it is ..a dream..a simulation..a video game ..Real Life etc ) a mental phenomenon or physical phenomenon?  That is ..is it idealism that you believe in or physicalism? 

The difference between both is that mental implies that you are imagining it and have not real existence without you. Physical means that it has real existence independent of the observer . Id say that mental perspective is limited. It limites the reality to your field of perception. In absence of limits, how could reality be limited? Reality has to be real and unlimited, then, physical. 

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The difference between both is that mental implies that you are imagining it and have not real existence without you. Physical means that it has real existence independent of the observer . Id say that mental perspective is limited. It limites the reality to your field of perception. In absence of limits, how could reality be limited? Reality has to be real and unlimited, then, physical. 

Approximately..how many trips you've tripped on 5 meo and other hallucinogens? 

If you are so experienced in tripping on psychedelics as you claim then you should know by now that reality is mental.

Reality =Infinite Mind or Infinite Imagination. 

Yet you still believe In physicality (which is just the denser mental state ) and surprisingly enough you still believe that psychedelics fuck with your "brain"  as you said earlier.  Weird !

[Inliytened1]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Approximately..how many trips you've tripped on 5 meo and other hallucinogens? 

If you are so experienced in tripping on psychedelics as you claim then you should know by now that reality is mental.

Reality =Infinite Mind or Infinite Imagination. 

Yet you still believe In physicality (which is just the denser mental state ) and surprisingly enough you still believe that psychedelics fuck with your "brain"  as you said earlier.  Weird !

Apparently quantum mechanics has taught him nothing 😀

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Apparently quantum mechanics has taught him nothing 😀

Yup. Even modern science has demonstrated a long time ago that atoms are 99.9999% empty space and the substance of reality is consciousness because when you go to the quantum level your consciousness as an observer interfere with the actual particles you observe .

[Breakingthewall]

28 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Approximately..how many trips you've tripped on 5 meo and other hallucinogens? 

If you are so experienced in tripping on psychedelics as you claim then you should know by now that reality is mental.

Reality =Infinite Mind or Infinite Imagination. 

Yet you still believe In physicality (which is just the denser mental state ) and surprisingly enough you still believe that psychedelics fuck with your "brain"  as you said earlier.  Weird !

What is the difference between physical and mental? 

I did psychedelic so many times that I realized that sober or on psychedelic are exactly the same. Tell Leo to move a stone with his mind when he's in god mode and send the video, would be interesting to see it. 

 

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Reality =Infinite Mind or Infinite Imagination. 

Yeah, that is what Leo said, but what it means? That you have the mental image of a god that is imagining things? Are you sure that you know what reality is? Or infinite mind? That's just religion 

My personal perception, which I absolutely doubt and which also does not interest me too much, is that reality arises spontaneously from the absence of limits, and since there are no limits, its intelligence is unlimited, and it is organized unlimitedly in patterns composed of holons self-conscious, creating an interconnected whole, which is at the same time one and multiple, connected and isolated, like the cells of your body, and which emerges in cycles of creation and destruction.

What interests me is perceiving the essence, be open to it, not making a mental outline of what it is. the metal/physical difference is just a mental scheme. If you are open to the essence, you realize that everything that arise are just forms, you are the essence, and everything is irrelevant, just movement, a dance. Then you enjoy it, but you don't need to define, to classify it, because it's useless, is just ego mind. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Yup. Even modern science has demonstrated a long time ago that atoms are 99.9999% empty space and the substance of reality is consciousness because when you go to the quantum level your consciousness as an observer interfere with the actual particles you observe .

If the substance of reality is conciousness, conciousness is something, then it's physical, or mental, choose the one that makes you happier 

[An young being]

Reality can indeed be a dream of advanced levels, but it's never proven to be so. That leaves us with a curious question or maybe a belief, but not an answer or a fact.

Here's something to ponder about. In a dream during sleep, the rules of the physical reality we are in can be  broken. In the same way, if you believe that you are dreaming right now, you shouldn't also deny that the higher Reality can be limiting in nature. Still, we consider dreams to be inferior to sleep, for a reason. I love dreams though.

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall you're not awake sir . Stop wasting your time and my time with concepts. 

You're literally 24/7 on here stuffing our ears with your trips and your mental gymnastics..yet you don't get that reality is a mind rather than a physical system. 

5 hours ago, An young being said:

Reality can indeed be a dream of advanced levels, but it's never proven to be so.

Eat some LSD and see for yourself. 

Edited July 5 by Someone here

[Keryo Koffa]

50 minutes ago, Someone here said:

reality is a mind rather than a physical system

The physical system is a subjective descriptive assessment of the nature of one's current experience.

There is undoubtably an infinity beyond which constantly flows in and out of awareness changing it.

Our conflict stems from a seeming lack of ability to navigate and reconcile various states of consciousness.

Edited July 5 by Keryo Koffa

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

The physical system is a subjective descriptive assessment of the nature of one's current experience.

No that's not what it is ."Physical matter " is something couched within your conscious mind . A dense  mental phenomenon. 

8 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

There is undoubtably an infinity beyond which constantly flows in and out of awareness changing it .

There is nothing outside of your direct experience. 

8 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Our conflict stems from a seeming lack of ability to navigate and reconcile various states of consciousness.

No it stems from lacking a more precise inspection of what is actually true. 

Edited July 5 by Someone here

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

yet you don't get that reality is a mind rather than a physical system. 

Seems that you can't understand that that differentiation is just a mental label. You are still trying to define the reality with your conceptual mind. Don't you understand that your conceptual mind is inside of the reality? 

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Seems that you can't understand that that differentiation is just a mental label. You are still trying to define the reality with your conceptual mind. Don't you understand that your conceptual mind is inside of the reality? 

Its not just a conceptual difference. I'm not playing buzz word games when I call Reality "mental" rather than "physical".  It's not just semantics or intellectual masturbation... it is obvious that everything we see is but a projection coming from the mind..not the "brain" nor "conceptual mind ".How to describe what drives this projection? "Mental " seems the appropriate term here.

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Someone here said:

it is obvious that everything we see is but a projection coming from the mind..

It's obvious that everything that you see don't have real existence by itself?  Maybe that's obvious for you. 

For me it is obvious that reality is infinite, so everything I see is infinite, therefore its depth is infinite, everything contains the totality, therefore it has existence in itself, even a speck of dust is infinite, or a thought or an hallucination . If infinity is the case, nothing is finite, it is impossible, any fraction of infinity is infinite, and therefore is neither understandable nor classifiable. Then I don't try to understand it, I try to open myself to it's substance, and being it you understand everything, but when it's close, you don't understand anymore. Infinity only can be , let's say understood , being infinite, that is, being open

Edited July 5 by Breakingthewall

[Keryo Koffa]

38 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No that's not what it is ."Physical matter " is something couched within your conscious mind . A dense  mental phenomenon. 

There is nothing outside of your direct experience. 

No it stems from lacking a more precise inspection of what is actually true. 

I do not follow. My direct experience is consistently morphing and changing. There might be a timeless infinite substrate from which it originates, but the experience itself is always in flux, hinting at a further dimension unobserved. Think of a pink elephant, now a red and blue one, now the pink one's gone, now it's back, you do not know what I will say next until I do. Are you saying the universe itself disappears when you don't look at it, where does it come from then when you do, where was it before? Does it pop in and out of existence? I merely see it obscured.

[Someone here]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's obvious that everything that you see don't have real existence by itself?  

Yes it is ofcourse.  Close your eyes ..the world goes poof..open them again..the world appears again to YOU.  Everything is being held in your consciousness. Nothing exists without you being there observing it .

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

For me it is obvious that reality is infinite

No that's not obvious AT ALL.

 

[Someone here]

17 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

Are you saying the universe itself disappears when you don't look at it, where does it come from then when you do, where was it before? Does it pop in and out of existence? I merely see it obscured.

Yes the universe disappeared when you don't look at it .check your direct experience that that's literally the case .

Where does it come from ? From YOU ..you project it out of your mind .