Let me teach you a lesson in epistemology

[Someone here]

Let's seriously compare our dreams at night with the waking state ..I had an interesting dream last night..because I met with my spiritual guru in it and we were talking about separation (as in is the world dual or nondual?).I don't remember much of the talk but I remember a very interesting statement he said ..he said "there is really ..really..REALLY no such thing as "you ". And then I woke up . It was 4 AM. That dream was insanely vivid and impactful..   To the point I couldn't believe it was a dream ..I spent half an hour just in total awe and shock ..then I went straight to his Ashram..and he was awake meditating then I asked him if we can have a talk.  We've talked about a bunch of complicated spiritual mumbo-jumbo that isn't so important to share but I will dive straight to the meat of the topic ....

So basically what happened is I started to question reality .because look..why the hell should I trust my senses ..? Why is touch real ? I touch objects also in a dream . Why is sound real ? I also hear sounds in a dream . Why is taste real ? I also taste food in a dream. What's the difference between my guru in the waking state and in the that vivid ass dream I had ? There is literally no difference whatsoever. Its the same 1st person phenomenological appearance. Same look.same smell.same voice etc.  To kinda get you in touch with what I'm trying to say ..you guys sometimes dream about Leo at night right 😉? What's the difference between Leo's bald head in your IPhone and Leo's bald head in your dream ?

Now..to wrap up..there is literally no difference between a dream and everyday waking life except one thing ..is that "real life " is just longer and more  sequential .thats all . That's the only reason you think life is real . Now what if you dreamed of a long ass dream ..? You are..it's what's happening NOW!.  Thats literally what life is . Wake up .lol.

OK so ..getting back to the point ..I simply want to show you that you can't take this experience you are having right now for granted ..you really..really..REALLY can't trust your waking state more than you can trust a dream . So all of your intellectual knowledge and wisdom accumulation belongs to the garbage can if you want to be  as Epistemologically honest and rigorous as possible 🙆. 

Thanks for reading!

Edited July 4 by Someone here

[enchanted]

You aren't teaching anybody anything new, everyone on here already knows this. Check out "life is dream" episodes by Leo. It's one of the early episodes too. 

[Yimpa]

Reality is teaching itself.

[Someone here]

10 minutes ago, enchanted said:

You aren't teaching anybody anything new, everyone on here already knows this. Check out "life is dream" episodes by Leo. It's one of the early episodes too. 

The "teaching" is not about the conclusion that life is a dream ..but the questioning and how to actually deconstruct the hell out of your existence .

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Reality is teaching itself.

I'm you .literally. 

[Breakingthewall]

It depends on the depth of your perception. With a superficial, egoic perception, based on ideas, you will see everything schematized and flat. If your perception is open, free of ego, you will see everything in depth, you will perceive its substance. You will perceive that everything is in you, but not in you as a human but in you as reality, and you will perceive what are you in essence as reality and you will perceive that same essence in all things.

What appears in a dream is also made of that same essence, the same as a thought, but its source is the human avatar, which in turn has reality as its source. What appears while awake does not have the human avatar as its source, in the sense that the human avatar cannot modify it with his will, while what appears in a dream can. They are different levels of reality, equally real but in a different dimension.

Then, I think that everything that appears are other perspectives of you as reality, detached of you as human. But anyway, it's difficult to be sure of anything 

Edited July 4 by Breakingthewall

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It depends on the depth of your perception. With a superficial, egoic perception, based on ideas, you will see everything schematized and flat. If your perception is open, free of ego, you will see everything in depth, you will perceive its substance. You will perceive that everything is in you, but not in you as a human but in you as reality, and you will perceive what are you in essence as reality and you will perceive that same essence in all things.

What appears in a dream is also made of that same essence, the same as a thought, but its source is the human avatar, which in turn has reality as its source. What appears while awake does not have the human avatar as its source, in the sense that the human avatar cannot modify it with his will, while what appears in a dream can. They are different levels of reality, equally real but in a different dimension.

Then, I think that everything that appears are other perspectives of you as reality, detached of you as human. But anyway, it's difficult to be sure of anything 

Interesting.  But you made some claims without evidence. And that's exactly what a faulty epistemology is .

You are assuming there is some kind of difference between what's happening right now and what's  happening in a nocturnal dream (not a fundamental one but still)..i ask you ..how do you make such claim? 

Second of all : you are saying its "difficult " to be sure ...I just lol 😂 ..dude ..you are experienced with 5 meo (not sure if you tried Salvia or Mushrooms) but these substance shake your reality upside down ...down side up and throw you into the midst of the unknown..it's not just "difficult "..unless you are having a lucid dream ..it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell a dream from reality .

 

[Breakingthewall]

46 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You are assuming there is some kind of difference between what's happening right now and what's  happening in a nocturnal dream (not a fundamental one but still)..i ask you ..how do you make such claim? 

Let's say that everything is images created by the mind, but some are based on something real and others invented based on the real perception of the past. If you had been locked up alone in a room your whole life, could you dream about people? Furthermore, what is real has permanent consequences, what is dreamlike does not. Remember when Leo believed he could cure diseases by accessing god mode since they were imaginary, and it was not possible 

50 minutes ago, Someone here said:

you are experienced with 5 meo (not sure if you tried Salvia or Mushrooms) but these substance shake your reality upside down ..

If you do them enough, you will see that all they do is relax barriers and distort perception, changing the chemistry of the brain, but no matter how many psychedelics you take, you will not develop telekinesis.

[theleelajoker]

I love being taught lessons by random people about their subjective opinions without being asked!

[Someone here]

43 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you had been locked up alone in a room your whole life, could you dream about people?

1)Me being locked up alone in a room my whole life is a dream.

2)me being locked up alone in a room my whole life without sleep-dreaming of people(that whole scenario) is  a dream.

You are still making slight difference between the waking state and nocturnal dreams .without evidence. You literally don't know in which one you are in right now .

46 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Furthermore, what is real has permanent consequences, what is dreamlike does not.

Ahaa see? So there is no difference between nighttime dreams and the waking dream except that the latter is more persistent. Which is exactly what I said here :

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

up..there is literally no difference between a dream and everyday waking life except one thing ..is that "real life " is just longer and more  sequential .thats all . That's the only reason you think life is real .

 

[Someone here]

36 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

I love being taught lessons by random people about their subjective opinions without being asked!

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

Ahaa see? So there is no difference between nighttime dreams and the waking dream except that the latter is more persistent. Which is exactly what I said here :

The only thing that matters to me about all this is that I would rather have my leg cut off in a dream than when I wake up. What does the classification of reality matter? The only important thing is the consequences for me. awakening, or enlightenment or whatever you want to call it is not knowing that kind of thing but knowing what reality is in essence. In essence everything is the same, therefore yes, you are right, essentially a dream or wakefulness are made of the same substance, but as far as you are concerned, are different. The thing is being open to that substance. 

[Keryo Koffa]

@Breakingthewall @Someone here Let's see if I can reconcile your perspectives with some interesting speculation:

Everything is an interconnected dream. In dreams, we create scenarios through limitations and focus. Every night, we access a dream which can turn lucid with us seemingly in control. The dream we call reality is more difficult to directly modify through will alone. Maybe it can be, but something limits us from doing so. Perhaps this "physically" seeming universe is a self-limiting dream and within it we are self-limiting entities, a different order of holarchy of consciousness within more consciousness within infinite consciousness. Perhaps others are made of the same consciousness as us and have their own repulsive conscious aura. Perhaps this aura can be let go of or reinforce itself like AT-Fields in Evangelion. Perhaps we can acquire higher consciousness or merge ours but are also absolute and autonomous on our own and have programmed our subconscious from a higher level of awareness with limitations in order to coexist in this dream as separate entities with their own individuality and privacy which dissolves on higher levels.

Edited July 4 by Keryo Koffa

[Breakingthewall]

@Keryo Koffa  

 look at a bird for a few minutes. feel its reality, its divinity. Let its substance penetrate you, observe it in depth, perceive its life, become one with its life, enter its essence, perceive its glory, understand its sensation of being a bird, feel it. Now imagine a bird in your mind, or dream about a bird while you sleep. It's not alive, it's not the same, it's not real 

Anyone who says that reality is a dream is because his perception is egoic, schematic, superficial. If you can perceive in depth, you understand what reality is. 

Edited July 4 by Breakingthewall

[Keryo Koffa]

@Breakingthewall You say degrees of experience, we can rephrase that into degrees of dreams also, where some dreams are more vivid, more self-consistent and we have less direct control over them. And the pain is a sensation that is amplified compared to night dreams, by magnitudes and it is an a holistic feedback loop with with the state of the body, whose condition itself affects the experience. It's like the physical structure is a medium for consciousness to experience through and sensations are pointers and messengers to keep us safe. This specific environment intertwines us deeply with the condition of our physical manifestation. Maybe we have astral bodies, maybe we don't, I don't have that direct experience yet. So I feel it important to be attuned and treat reality as real, but it is made of the same substrate as dreams by virtue of us shifting between those states of mind and psychedelic experiences and NDEs leave further experiences with realities even more real than this one. Of course we could also inflect that and say dreams are real just to a lesser degree and we can experiment with that view also.

Edited July 4 by Keryo Koffa

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

into degrees of dreams also, 

The word dream makes no sense. For something to be a dream there has to be something else that is not a dream and that is imagining it. if there is only that category of existence, then you can't call it dream

Edited July 4 by Breakingthewall

[Keryo Koffa]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The world dream makes no sense. For something to be a dream there has to be something else that is not a dream and that is imagining it. if there is only that category of existence, then you can't call it dream

I'm really shifting into non-dual Capital D Dream here. Of course on the relative scale, the experience differs massively

It's the same as Capital R Reality, which would include dreams as a different variation, scope and experience of Reality

And of course they're very different relatively speaking and its important to recognize and explore that difference

Edited July 4 by Keryo Koffa

[Breakingthewall]

@Keryo Koffa what I mean is that the word dream means that there is something called god, that is real, that is doing something, that is imagining something, and that thing is a dream of god. 

First, is that the case? Are we sure? Sound logical, subject, action, object, but maybe infinity works in another way 

Second, if it were the case, you could call it creation too. Why dream? Because it has not substance? False. Everything have the substance of the absolute, then it's the absolute, is real. 

[Keryo Koffa]

@Breakingthewall Okay, let me clarify, when I use the word Dream, I use it as a means to bridge different states of consciousness and the nature of experience, not to dismiss the significance of our experience of reality. I'm really just tying it together into a single substrate, I use the word dream because it tends to be a strong point of resistance within the topic of non-dual integration.

In a way, everything is equally real, everything is experience. Now, within this understanding, some things are more consistent and rigid than others, our body for example is more physical than water which is more physical than air. Using our cells, we encode information, as we understand it, it is necessary for our survival, experience and self-understanding. Our body is very important, it houses us and we create ourselves through it.

I agree, we can call it creation also, Dream is one word that points to the unifying substrate, I'm not caught up on the word, it is one point that can bridge the duality, and there are many other with their own flavors.

[Breakingthewall]

36 minutes ago, Keryo Koffa said:

agree, we can call it creation also, Dream is one word that points to the unifying substrate, I'm not caught up on the word, it is one point that can bridge the duality, and there are many other with their own flavors.

Dream for me points to categorize it like not totally real. Many mystics used it so who knows. For me, I don't see anything else more real, what I see is that the meaning is a dream of the ego, but the thing itself is real