Human models of consciousness are bs

[Shodburrito]

Models of the evolution of human consciousness such as spiral dynamics present a major flaw in which they sneak in value judgements regarding different stages. Leo and pretty much everyone else on here presents “higher stages” as better than ones preceding it. I just read a post on here about stage orange being better than stage blue as an example of what I mean.

                However, I have realized that the idea that any stage being “better” or “more advanced” than any other is completely relative. Saying that stage turquoise is better than the lower stages is relative from the perspective of a person that values the things that are provided at a stage turquoise level.

                 It begs the question, what even is this model presenting if it attempts to posit that higher stages are superior than lower ones? Simply because a different stage has a different worldview and identity which it operates from does mean existing in that stage is better than any other.

                In fact, I realized that this whole notion of there being any “stages” to awakening or enlightenment are bs. There may be natural stages which people commonly follow when living like what is presented in Spiral Dynamics, but all these models are sneaking in relative value judgements about them. Even your “enlightened” masters and monks do this. They talk about all of these platitudes such as: how people should pursue awakening and samadhi and how you can’t find satisfaction without giving up the ego, etc…

                But what none of these “masters” don’t realize is that this is all relative. Why value awakening or reaching profound levels of peace? Reaching high states of “awakening” are not necessarily better than living an average human life. “How can that be? Obviously achieving peace and satisfaction is better than pursuing desires harharhar” No, that is a relative statement where you value peace over other experiences that you can have. In fact, God does not give af what you do with your life. You do not need to follow any human idea or concept of what you should do with your life. After all, these ideas are relative.

                I’m sure I am going to annoy a lot of spiritual people’s egos in here who think that everyone has to work on “evolving” their consciousness otherwise they're not as “evolved” as they are. Lol it doesn’t matter and you’re asleep like they are. In fact, from an objective perspective a stage red person is just as perfect as a stage turquoise level.

 

Just some food for thought 

 

[Ishanga]

The Models are just the Intellect Dissecting and trying to Understand it, labels, models, theories, philosophies, writings, blogs, posts on forums, mean nothing is Your inner Experience is low and full of suffering, anxiety, depression etc...

I can't tell You how many times I've read somethings on this forum, and from the ppl that post them, thinking oh this person may be on too something, they seem like their on their way to some transformation and perception of higher possibilities, then they post how they are addicted to this that or the other thing, they need advice on nerves, anxiousness, social situations, things of this nature that someone with high levels of Awareness and Experience would never have, boggles my mind...

Edited July 3 by Ishanga

[CARDOZZO]

1 hour ago, Shodburrito said:

Models of the evolution of human consciousness such as spiral dynamics present a major flaw in which they sneak in value judgements regarding different stages. Leo and pretty much everyone else on here presents “higher stages” as better than ones preceding it. I just read a post on here about stage orange being better than stage blue as an example of what I mean.

                However, I have realized that the idea that any stage being “better” or “more advanced” than any other is completely relative. Saying that stage turquoise is better than the lower stages is relative from the perspective of a person that values the things that are provided at a stage turquoise level.

                 It begs the question, what even is this model presenting if it attempts to posit that higher stages are superior than lower ones? Simply because a different stage has a different worldview and identity which it operates from does mean existing in that stage is better than any other.

                In fact, I realized that this whole notion of there being any “stages” to awakening or enlightenment are bs. There may be natural stages which people commonly follow when living like what is presented in Spiral Dynamics, but all these models are sneaking in relative value judgements about them. Even your “enlightened” masters and monks do this. They talk about all of these platitudes such as: how people should pursue awakening and samadhi and how you can’t find satisfaction without giving up the ego, etc…

                But what none of these “masters” don’t realize is that this is all relative. Why value awakening or reaching profound levels of peace? Reaching high states of “awakening” are not necessarily better than living an average human life. “How can that be? Obviously achieving peace and satisfaction is better than pursuing desires harharhar” No, that is a relative statement where you value peace over other experiences that you can have. In fact, God does not give af what you do with your life. You do not need to follow any human idea or concept of what you should do with your life. After all, these ideas are relative.

                I’m sure I am going to annoy a lot of spiritual people’s egos in here who think that everyone has to work on “evolving” their consciousness otherwise they're not as “evolved” as they are. Lol it doesn’t matter and you’re asleep like they are. In fact, from an objective perspective a stage red person is just as perfect as a stage turquoise level.

 

Just some food for thought 

 

Actually, higher stages are not considered better, they just integrate more perspectives/values/POVs.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, it's relative that America is better than North Korea.

Politics is a relative domain.

If your are so indifferent to such relative matters, move to North Korea.

Edited July 4 by Leo Gura

[Shodburrito]

@Leo Gura You are missing my point. It is not better for everyone to pursue awakening, enlightenment, Samadhi, whatever you want to call it. Sure, it can be interesting, enjoyable, and peaceful once you reach it, but acting like it will 100% satisfy you and it is the best thing in life is a lie. Really, awakening does not change anything unless you place it on a pedestal. I doubt, even if most people experienced radical awakenings and integrated them, that they would end up living like a monk. I am tired of spiritual gurus acting as if living in a cave and meditating all day is going to be thing the best thing for you. No offense, but your response is honestly weird and dismissive. It actually points to what I am saying which is just do what you want. Trying to pedestalize spirituality or any idea of how someone should live their life is limiting and denying the multi-facted state of human experience.

Edited July 4 by Shodburrito

[Shodburrito]

@CARDOZZO I do not see most people portraying it that way. Most people explicitly slip in value judgements, at least on this forum.

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Shodburrito said:

@Leo Gura You are missing my point. It is not better for everyone to pursue awakening, enlightenment, Samadhi, whatever you want to call it.

Of course. Awakening is only suitable for a few rare people.

Quote

Sure, it can be interesting, enjoyable, and peaceful once you reach it, but acting like it will 100% satisfy you and it is the best thing in life is a lie. Really, awakening does not change anything unless you place it on a pedestal.

Awakening is amazing. But very few people are mature enough to appreciate it or reach it.

Quote

I doubt, even if most people experienced radical awakenings and integrated them, that they would end up living like a monk. I am tired of spiritual gurus acting as if living in a cave and meditating all day is going to be thing the best thing for you.

That is true. But even those gurus you mention don't live like monks. They have famalies, they make money, they have fancy houses and cars, they run a business, etc.

So in a sense you have made up that myth/ideal of an enlightened person being a monk living in a cave. That is definitely a fanasty which you should drop.

Quote

No offense, but your response is honestly weird and dismissive. It actually points to what I am saying which is just do what you want. Trying to pedestalize spirituality or any idea of how someone should live their life is limiting and denying the multi-facted state of human experience.

I have underscored many times that the pursuit of truth is itself a bias and that you need to customize self-actualization to your own values and unique personality.

In no way do I say that everyone should follow my personal path. That would be wrong.

Edited July 4 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Shodburrito According Ken Wilbur awakening is available to each of the developmental stages. 
 

He makes a clear distinction between Waking Up which is varying states of wholeness from gross to absolute. 
 

and, growing up which is for example going from being ethnocentric to being world centric. 

The awakenings you experience is interpreted by your level of growing up. 

Stages of development  are in a way relativistic, yea in a way being ethnocentric is fine if you like that. But, being world centric is toward a greater wholeness. 

But, notice your own level of cognitive development to even be able to ask these questions and make these distinctions which you find valuable. 

The whole point of these models of human development as I am coming to understand them as presented by Ken Wilbur is for humanity to reach higher levels of wholeness, understanding, awakening and intelligence. 
 

Each stage in growing up is important for human development. One stage isn’t better than another that is a common misconception. However, each stage is more developed toward a greater wholeness and understanding of the universe. 
 

An egocentric animist person who thinks the clouds are mad at him… you have to admit is less developed than a pluralistic rational understanding that weather patterns have nothing to do with an angry cloud.

Edited July 4 by Thought Art

[Shodburrito]

 

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course. Awakening is only suitable for a few rare people.

Awakening is amazing. But very few people are mature enough to appreciate it or reach it.

 

 

 

From your perspective it is. From my experience it is cool, but not that life changing after the dust has settled. I realized that the only thing to do is to pursue what I enjoy. I think most people, including myself until recently, believe that there is something we must do in this life. For people who pursue spirituality a lot of the times it comes across that we should become more loving or help others. It can be a variety of other things, but it is wrapped up in an idea that there is an objective purpose to existence. If I don't meditate x hours a week, believe x ideas, and live a certain way I am not awakened. People package awakening that it is a great thing that can happen. I think its value is highly overstated.

The only real way my life has changed after pursuing awakening i that I am conscious on a deeper level of why I do things. I used to act unconsciously on desires without knowing any of the biases operating the steering wheel behind my life. Spirituality made me believe, and I think a lot of others too, that these biases are bad and should be removed. But, I have recently realized that thinking this way is just as subjective as the biases. So I have now adopted a lifestyle where I simply try to embody the purest form of my existence. I simply do what I enjoy and exist the way I enjoy. In fact, my life is, in many ways, similar to the way it was 4 years ago before I started philosophy/spirituality. The difference is I realize the absolute relativity of my beliefs and everyone elses, and I am making a conscious decision to experience the things I enjoy, rather than let them unconsciosuly control me. 

I do not think many people here can relate or understand what I am saying because they have not awakened to the fact that awakening is only relatively better than staying asleep. Most people pursue awakening because they think it will be genuinely better than many other things they can dedicate their time to. I think that many also believe that it would be a great thing for other people to pursue awakening too. Now that i see how this is as relative as any other value judgement, I have come to accept that there are many other things I enjoy more than experiencing the bliss and peace of no mind. Awakening has significantly reduced the suffering I experience in life, but now that the dust has settled, I realize that there are many other things I genuinely enjoy more than letting go and experiencing peace. It is not that I cannot return to that state to enjoy it also, but that I have many other things which I would rather do.

Edited July 4 by Shodburrito

[Shodburrito]

@Leo GuraFor example, there is a post recently made on this forum that is about  "How to Overcome Attachment?". Thinking this way is very detrimental to most. This person is probably thinking that it is objectively better for them to give up their desires and attachments so they can obtain total peace. Now, they are probably starting to demonize their desires which creates and internal conflict of two different parts of themselves that want peace and the other parts that want to pursue desires. He does not realize that finding satisfaction with no mind will not make him satisfied. There are parts of him that want other things. Does that make sense? There are other parts of him that don't care about peace and just want to have fun. Neither parts of that person are better or worse. But they are getting trapped in the mindset that the desire to let go of attachments is better for them than the desire to do other things in life.

Edited July 4 by Shodburrito

[LordFall]

@Shodburrito I see your point but you're conflating awakening and models of consciousness. Spiral dynamics for example just means you can see the world from an increasingly large perspective and the more people do that the less stuff like violence, racism, intolerance, etc will take place.

Most things are relative to a point but the more we as a species increase in empathy the less we collectively suffer which I'd say is objectively better. 

[Thought Art]

Yeah, ideally more people being highly awake, conscious, intelligent, and epistemologically mature would be nice 

[What Am I]

@Shodburrito if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying in no uncertain terms that you've permanently awakened, right? Would you be willing to go into more detail about the process that led you there? And maybe provide a clear definition of what you mean by "awakening"?

I resonate with large chunks of your post, but the humdrum attitude towards spiritual pursuits just seems a bit strange to me. I get that in the eternal grand scheme of things, it's probably meaningless, but I'd still rather actively work towards a more conscious existence than be a crack addict on the streets for example. Though I'm not awakened, so it's possible I just can't understand.

Edited July 4 by What Am I

[CARDOZZO]

@Shodburrito

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Let me guess:

You fall on the trap of pursuing enlightenment & non-duality without developing your basic survival needs? (money, work & relationships)

[BlessedLion]

7 hours ago, Shodburrito said:

Models of the evolution of human consciousness such as spiral dynamics present a major flaw in which they sneak in value judgements regarding different stages. Leo and pretty much everyone else on here presents “higher stages” as better than ones preceding it. I just read a post on here about stage orange being better than stage blue as an example of what I mean.

                However, I have realized that the idea that any stage being “better” or “more advanced” than any other is completely relative. Saying that stage turquoise is better than the lower stages is relative from the perspective of a person that values the things that are provided at a stage turquoise level.

                 It begs the question, what even is this model presenting if it attempts to posit that higher stages are superior than lower ones? Simply because a different stage has a different worldview and identity which it operates from does mean existing in that stage is better than any other.

                In fact, I realized that this whole notion of there being any “stages” to awakening or enlightenment are bs. There may be natural stages which people commonly follow when living like what is presented in Spiral Dynamics, but all these models are sneaking in relative value judgements about them. Even your “enlightened” masters and monks do this. They talk about all of these platitudes such as: how people should pursue awakening and samadhi and how you can’t find satisfaction without giving up the ego, etc…

                But what none of these “masters” don’t realize is that this is all relative. Why value awakening or reaching profound levels of peace? Reaching high states of “awakening” are not necessarily better than living an average human life. “How can that be? Obviously achieving peace and satisfaction is better than pursuing desires harharhar” No, that is a relative statement where you value peace over other experiences that you can have. In fact, God does not give af what you do with your life. You do not need to follow any human idea or concept of what you should do with your life. After all, these ideas are relative.

                I’m sure I am going to annoy a lot of spiritual people’s egos in here who think that everyone has to work on “evolving” their consciousness otherwise they're not as “evolved” as they are. Lol it doesn’t matter and you’re asleep like they are. In fact, from an objective perspective a stage red person is just as perfect as a stage turquoise level.

 

Just some food for thought 

 

Well, in a sense they are higher, better, and more advanced. If you read Wilber you see that the higher stages have less gross % of population but a much higher influence on population ratio as they go up. So literally the higher stages are more powerful, influential, and beneficial to society. 
 

Would you rather be a stage Green new ager, maybe you meditate and do yoga, live in nature, have a sexy spiritual girlfriend, and work online or would you rather be a stage red mobster, beating people up for money, living life with a fear of jail or being killed, and having to report to some mob boss psycho? 
 

Your argument is an argument for staying in a complacent and weak state of consciousness and remaining an ignorant worm. If this sounds better to you then go ahead. 
 

Personally I think most people uh don’t enjoy suffering and there is a direct correlation to raising your consciousness and suffering less. But let’s all give the participation trophy and pat on the back to everyone, and their lame shallow lives, because saying one way of life is better than another is “mean” 😂

[UnbornTao]

These models are measuring something other than consciousness--awareness or cognition, perhaps, or what each theory considers to be "development". Consciousness can't be mapped and models are never true, even more so when it comes to enlightenment work. 

Although inventions, they may be useful.

Edited July 4 by UnbornTao

[Schizophonia]

9 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Yeah, ideally more people being highly awake, conscious, intelligent, and epistemologically mature would be nice 

Why ? What does it means ?

 

[theleelajoker]

5 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Why ? What does it means ?

 

I understand:

• I don't start a war because I realize leading war and winning war will not make my happy
• I don't lie and cheat to get material wealth because I realize that will not make me happy
• I will not use other people or treat them as objects because I being authentic and balanced with my needs those of others will rather make me happy
• I rather stay in the present moment, take responsibility and  don't need to blame other people
• I care more about others because I realize we are all connected
• ....

Edited July 4 by theleelajoker

[An young being]

I see that the universe is perfectly balanced. You can stay in the lower levels of consciousness models ( atleast most of them ) and enjoy the excitement and pleasure you derive out of it. But you have to suffer a great deal if you wish to stay there till the end.

Or, you can get tired of the sufferings and seek a spiritual path, trying to reduce suffering as much as possible. You can stay in the middle, which is perfectly fine if you are okay with the suffering life provides you at the stage, in which case you don't need awakening at all. Who knows, you might already be enlightened at that stage.